[Closed] Is the term "Jock" offensive or racist?

btw, c**t is a term of endearment up here

Well put seosamh77 your obviously a good c**t!

To be honest the word itself doesn't bother me - its a Scottish first name. As with everything its the intention and context that matters

Said like a true sassenach. Now toddle along and start a thread about getting dusty eyes at a John Lewis advert or something

richmtb - Member
btw, c**t is a term of endearment up here
Well put seosamh77 your obviously a good c**t!

To be honest the word itself doesn't bother me - its a Scottish first name. As with everything its the intention and context that matters

I'm sure that THM and various assorted unionist politicians will be along in a minute to tell us that shows the SNP haven't really given this whole independence thing enough thought.

😀 no need in this case, the use and misuse of the term Jock has a long and proud history that takes care of itself.

btw, c**t is a term of endearment up here

Nowadays about the only socially acceptable piss taking, nicknaming or whatever you want to call it is associated with people with ginger hair. It is unacceptable to make any comments about race, religion, disability, nationality but ginger hair....

Hold on, what about a ginger jock (running for cover).

Nowadays about the only socially acceptable piss taking, nicknaming or whatever you want to call it is associated with people with ginger hair. It is unacceptable to make any comments about race, religion, disability, nationality but ginger hair....

Gypsies and cyclists still seem to be fair game in most parts too

When you join the forces like I did in '78 you find that almost no one gets called by their actual name.....its almost always the lowest common denominater, so Scouse, Taff, Jock, Paddy, Geordie became these guys first names and it was never meant as offensive, just Blokes being Blokes. If you came from a non identifiable area, then you got called a shortened version of your surname....although if you were a Smith it was 'Smudger' or a White it was Chalky etc etc.Oh yeah, Ginge, Lofty or worse if you had any physical peculiarities!

Move forward to 2013 and everyone is looking to take offence at every possible word/name being bandied about, which is a bit depressing. What will we be like in another 35 years?

aye, but not down there it's not. As I found out on my first trip to London when my attempt at getting on with the natives didn't go all that well.

To be fair there's a fair number of nutters wandering around London calling people that, add in a scottish accent and I'm not surprised they avoided you 🙂

(And despite being a fully paid-up southerner I've used it as a term of endearment, it's not that uncommon...)

Gypsies and cyclists still seem to be fair game in most parts too

Ah, yes, forgot about the pikies(!).

I tend to agree with Rockapes sentiments.

I'm a Scotsman, and I live in the Lancashire. I've been called jock and all it's variants, sometimes by friends some times by people who are trying to offend or otherwise belittle me, do I find it offensive? No I don't do you know why? It's because I am a big boy.

My fellow scots who do find it offensive need to grow a pair, you are supposed to be scots, i.e. a bit tougher than those whose origin is from the southern lands.

As for those who are trying to offend or belittle me, try harder.

I don't find it offensive, just because I'm not that easily offended.

But it's certainly irritating - mostly because I've only ever heard it used by small-minded, petty little t**ts, who certainly intended it to be offensive. Usually followed by asking if I was from Glasgay. Does anyone know where this mythical place may be found? I've never heard of it, despite being born and bred in the west of Scotland.

Move forward to 2013 and everyone is looking to take offence at every possible word/name being bandied about, which is a bit depressing. What will we be like in another 35 years?

bleeding mental innit!

(I'm allowed to say that on account of being 'Dave the Nutter' to me mates 😀 )

You are a superior to no one so you will never hear it
Been shopping lately?

Flamesville! 😆

Been shopping lately?

One gets the servant to do that shit 😉

Some very funny posts here!!

But seriously - it's the tone and attitude of the person using any particular word or name that makes it offensive or not.

Of course one thing that has caused the position to have changed in the past 20 years has been the increase in anti English sentiment North of the border, which has resulted in plenty of previously friendly English people to take offence that their fellow English were getting a hard time in Scotland.

Therefore, 'good old Jock', became those 'effing Jocks' in certain circles which has confused the use of the word.

[quote=Rockape63 ]the increase in anti English sentiment North of the border,
Sources?

the past 20 years has been the increase in anti English sentiment North of the border,

+1

I frequently worked in Scotland from 1990 - 1995 and then lived there from 2003 - 2009. There was a definite change in attitude over the period. Only anecdotal evidence but it was definitely my experience.

anecdotes aren't evidence

anecdotes aren't evidence

Yes they are.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence ]Anecdotal_evidence[/url]

Sources?

STW ?

😉

Edit : Well, maybe just proof of it...

Rockape63 » the increase in anti English sentiment North of the border,

Sources?

This thread? can't but help thinking people are just trying to take offence so they can justify being more anti English.

You've gotta be kidding scotroutes.....maybe in the North of Scotland its not obvious, but there is a huge swell of anti English sentiment in Scotland.

Most of it was started by Mel Gibson!

I don't use the word jock - i find calling someone Scottish to be insult enough! 😛

I don't like using the terms "jock", "taff" or "paddy" unless with close friends where the intent is clearly non derogatory.

Repeated for the hard of thinking.

😀

Gypsies and cyclists still seem to be fair game in most parts too

Ah, yes, forgot about the pikies(!).

More recently, pikey was applied to Irish Travellers (also known as tinkers and knackers) and non-Romanichal travellers.[12][13] In the late 20th century, it came to be used to describe "a lower-class person, regarded as coarse or disreputable."[7][14]
Pikey's most common contemporary use is not as a term for the Romani ethnic group, but as a catch-all phrase to refer to people, of any ethnic group, who travel around with no fixed abode.
[b]Among English Romani Gypsies the term pikey refers to a Traveller that is not Romani. It may also refer to a member who has been cast out of the family. If a member of the family is hot headed or a thief or a trouble maker or brings misfortune on the family, then a family council will be held and that member will be cast out of the family and will have to stay out of the way for ever more. They are regarded as never having even been a part of the family.[/b][15]

not sure that you've got that quite right Countzero..

I don't get offended by the term jock, but not a fan of the term Scotch to describe someone from Scotland.I think a regular here uses the term, and takes offence at being called Paddy. Pot, kettle, black and all that. I agree with rockape about an unpleasant rise in ugly sentiment towards England and the UK in Scotland. Friend recently spat on for wearing a poppy. I also noticed a town in SNP heartland with a Britain in Bloom Winners sign. The word Britain has been defaced and covered with Saltires. These are only a couple of examples but I feel point towards a trend. I am concerned to the point where candidates for a No vote will not be safe campaigning in many areas next year.

Is scouser or geordie or taff or tyke cockney or ****

Mate of mine was in Australia when the West Indies and ****nstani cricket teams were touring. He had heard the West Indian team referred to as the "Windies", a term of genuine endearment for Australians who had a long love affair with the likes of Richards and Lloyd. He got that one. But he nearly choked on his beer when he saw a TV commercial warning Australian cricket fans that "The ****s are coming!" That was sometime in the late 1980's. I think they have moved on since.

the increase in anti English sentiment North of the border,

My experience also between 2000 and 2004.

Splitting my working week between Scotland and England I see that the majority of those English folk using the terms Jock and Scotch as a reference to Scots do so only when in the company of there own kind and in a sneering manner.

When such English colleagues are invited to use the terms as freely when they visit the Scottish depots and offices they don't seem quite so keen.

This tells me both that they know the terms are used in a derogatory way and that they are cowards.

You've gotta be kidding scotroutes.....maybe in the North of Scotland its not obvious, but there is a huge swell of anti English sentiment in Scotland.

Bollocks! No there isn't. Don't confuse the rise of Scottish Nationalism with "anti-English sentiment".

I'm a Weegie. My missus is English. We have lived in both countries, currently live in the NE of England and go up to Scotland very regularly. Can't say I've noticed any "huge swell".

By contrast my English in-laws lived in Edinburgh 40 years ago and got the full "English Go Home" treatment and a brick through their window.

Fairly standard at that time. Is that happening a lot in the current "huge swell"?

I heard British comedian Omid Djalili a while back talking about some support he received from a local lad in Glasgow when touring who declared,
"Go oan yoursel big man. It's great seein ****s doin comedy!" Bless.

The word Britain has been defaced and covered with Saltires. These are only a couple of examples but I feel point towards a trend.

Who cares, when they get the devolution vote they keep banging on about, we can rebuild Hadrians wall and call them what we like, skirt wearing haggis munchers 😉

it's not as offensive as what a lot of scots call english people!

I wouldn't be so sure benji. Most of the Scots I know (including SNP voters) are still in the "No" or "Undecided" camps. I only know one guy who is saying "Yes" at the moment.

Incidentally I'm quite happy to be called a haggis-muncher. I love haggis, you silly rosbif! 🙂

It's odd really, I wouldn't call myself especially sensitive but I was most put out when a random Australian woman called me a Pom when I was in Eastern Europe. I had been called a ****ing Pom by a different Australian, but I was brandishing an electric fan on a bush walk so I guess I invited it.

I would agree that it could be part of banter with mates, not so much for random encounters.

Growing up we had a Scottish friend known as Jock, can't even remember his proper name, his Dad was also known as Jock a really nice bloke but if you were going to describe a Glaswegian based on stereotyping he'd fit that perfectly.

Anyway we moved away from the area they lived in and never seen Jock Jnr for about 20 years until 1 day at work I bumped into him, he'd getting a job as a porter at the hospital. My first words were "Hello Jock how you doing?"

Never seemed offensive to me certainly no more than being called a Geordie.

So you know it was neds then? Must have been a ned that spat at my friend also. I can't deny that there is a portion of the population of Scotland that don't feel a connection to Britain or we would not be having a referendum. Nationalists have used false propaganda to fool people into a resentment of the UK that I believe stops just short of Union Jack flag burning. As I already stated, I would not like to be a No canvaser next year wearing a rossette with a Union Jack on it.

This posted for balance. Appeals to my sense of humour. No less a valid view of Scotland than the Utopia imagined by some. Reality probably somewhere in the middle.

As has been remarked above, his name may well have been John and that is colloquially changed to Jock (e.g. my Uncle John was always known as Jock, just as his father Hugh was known as Shuggie).

As has also been remarked above, referring to Scots as Jocks is seen, by many, as derogatory and offensive. Given that point, how would a STW moderator respond to a post highlighted as such?

[quote=athgray ]Nationalists have used false propaganda to fool people into a resentment of the UK
Sources?

No one who called me 'Jock' has ever meant it in any way other than derogatory.

Given that point, how would a STW moderator respond to a post highlighted as such?

Context goes along to way to how a term is deemed offensive.

No it wasn't John.

I absolutely, categorically, definitely and undeniably hate this thread.
this kind of thread is worse than reality TV.
there, I said it.

IIRC, the Official Yes campaign referendum video used at the start of the SNP conference. Leni Riefenstahl would be proud. 😉
Was intrigued by Sturgeons speech. Whole new meaning to scare mongering. Or is it not scare mongering when wrapped in a saltire.

Athgray if you have such concerns about the safety of candidates report it to the relevant authorities (edit)

[img] [/img]

I'm Scottish and have to say that the Jock thing doesn't bother me one little bit. Anyone who gets offended by something like that is either one of the all too commonf ull time offendees that we see so often these days pretending to be offended by everything, or really needs to get out more.

It's all about delivery/tone IMO. I know STW struggles with anything but black and white though so that might not be helpful 😉

"Sweaty sock" though seems to be a pretty good indicator that the person speaking is a fanny.

Nationalists have used false propaganda to fool people into a resentment of the UK that I believe stops just short of Union Jack flag burning.

The comment about no canvesers fearing for their safety is equally hilarious! 😀

Ok time for a compromise so that everyone can get some sleep. No more "Jock". From now on our friends in Scotland shall simply be known as "very good sportsmen" instead. HTH. Night, night.

btw I think people thinking there's a surge in anti enlgishness are just too sensitive for some harsh scottish humour.

Anti english sentiment is worse now than it was post thatcher and the poll tax in the 90s! 😀 love it! 😀

The actual reality imo, is that there's less intolerance in Scotland than there was in the 90s. people just get more offended these days.

born in Hartlepool !

I'm sure she likes getting called a Geordie then, Monkey Hanger may be more accurate 😉

I would not like to be a No canvaser next year wearing a rossette with a Union Jack on it.

PS why did Ian Paisley's house smell so bad? Because he would never allow pot pourri under his roof.

btw I think people thinking there's a surge in anti enlgishness are just too sensitive for some harsh scottish humour.

Yet, the Scots are allowed to be offended by people calling them "Jocks"? Evidently the Scots are just being too sensitive 🙄

Why would they wear a bowler hat kona? You may as well say that they would be an English toff because thats what you imply. I am sure the Yes campaign will be wearing rossettes with saltires on. Whats the difference? It is possible for someone to feel Scottish and British.
Seosamh, I at no point said canvasers would fear for their safety, read again if you like.

Why would they wear a bowler hat kona? You may as well say that they would be an English toff because thats what you imply.

Must have been a ned that spat at my friend also.

I've never heard of someone getting hassle for wearing a poppy before, but at a guess I'd saying it is more likely to be good old traditional sectarian hatred. The same knuckle-draggers that have been known to throw stones at the fire service because the somehow (??) represent the Queen. That's not something new unfortunately.

the majority of those English folk using the terms Jock and Scotch as a reference to Scots do so only when in the company of there own kind and in a sneering manner.

How does that work? If your a Scot how would you hear them?

Did I say exclusive company? No, I didn't.

only when in the company of there own kind

No one who called me 'Jock' has ever meant it in any way other than derogatory.

Lol @ JD monkey hanger. Thanks for reminding me about that one.

No one who called me 'Jock' has ever meant it in any way other than derogatory.I think that says a great deal more about you than the word used!
Really Woody ? How is that?
For what it's worth no one I know has ever called me a Jock. 5 of those who did call me Jock attacked my friend and I a few seconds later.

Didn't the Dexy Midnight Runners do a song about someone called 'jock'?
[img] [/img]

For what it's worth no one I know has ever called me a Jock. 5 of those who did call me Jock attacked my friend and I a few seconds later.

So what? I bet they called you a few worse things as well.

Perhaps they were threatened by your stereotypical aggressive, drunken behaviour? The Scots I know are not the quietest, best behaved people. 🙂

I have used the term Jock to friends/colleagues but not to strangers. They didn't seem particularly bothered and it was all part of "banter".

I've never randomly attacked anyone either.

They didn't seem particularly bothered and it was all part of "banter".

Maybe they just didn't want to seem bothered, because "it's just a bit of banter" is often shorthand for "I'm trying to wind you up for a laugh".

I've been that single Scottish person in a room full of drunken English people - and I smiled along with the fried Mars bar jokes and laughed at the "banter" because the alternative was that it would get worse.

..... No more "Jock".
From now on our friends in Scotland shall simply be known as "[s]very good sportsmen[/s]" **** instead.

As it seems to be their own preferred term of endearment I'm more than happy to use it 😀

Gordimhor - you've changed from 'no-one', to 'no-one you know' has ever called you a jock! Bit of a difference and I'd be interested in the circumstances of the attack.

Do you get out much?

"I'm trying to wind you up for a laugh".

Yes of course. What's the problem? The clue is in "laugh". Besides it was never a single Scot, quite frequently I was the single Englishman and I was normally receiving Englandshire stuff from them.

Fried Mars Bars are a disgusting idea and I am aware that very few people actually eat them but they were "invented" in Scotland, so why can't someone take p!ss about them?

I've been that single Scottish person in a room full of drunken English people - and I smiled along with the fried Mars bar jokes and laughed at the "banter" because the alternative was that it would get worse

I spent 8 weeks training on a course for work I was the only English person, I called them jocks and they called me wee Geordie. There was banter in my direction from them about being English and a Geordie, I gave it back. Was one of the best few weeks I've had a right good laugh.

Now a polite notice. Please stop using the C word and asterixeses it's classed as swear filter avoidance.

/awaits humorous post of what C word.

If its STW, then must be Cameron surely Drac?

If its STW, then must be Cameron surely Drac?

Well working in the NHS I agree but it's his short name I'm talking about.

Ah I see it was a stereotype they punched and not my nose , what with all violence being a form of communication we should maybe have stayed to carry on the debate, but the 5 of them were so much more talkative than the 2 of us, we decided to leg it.
I think banter between friends is fine, people I don't know have used the term Jock which to me comes over as a bit irritating or patronising. Generally you just ignore it .

[quote=Drac ]
Please stop using the C word and asterixeses it's classed as swear filter avoidance.
but surely

Context goes along to way to how a term is deemed offensive.

I've been that single Scottish person in a room full of drunken English people - and I smiled along with the fried Mars bar jokes and laughed at the "banter" because the alternative was that it would get worse.

You poor dear. Did you call the police to report the incident of inciting racial hatred? Do you think that ever goes the other way or is it only the evil English that do such things?

Funny that people angrily claim Scottish nationalism has nothing to do with resentment towards the English then post stuff like this....

I've had numerous bits of 'banter' from Scots about being English, most of it friendly, but not always. Don't think I've ever used the term Jock though - just seems a bit of a crass word.

Is it Racism?

I think it does come down to context and intent, how it's used and what sort of reaction the user of the term is looking to get (if any)...

Yeah OK it can just be a bit of banter. When people discover I hail from the South West you get the occasional use of the term "Carrot Cruncher", fair enough, it's a poor fit but I could live with the term being used in jest for a day or so perhaps....

But if somebody is still dwelling on where I grew up, and related stereotypes, the next day, a week, a month later, then yeah I'd be increasingly annoyed by it, and it only serves to demonstrate just how "small" that persons world view is...

TBH "Jock" not a term I've ever used with any of my Scottish co-workers or friends, if anything I find that I tend to ignore most peoples "point of origin", however obvious or not it might be, unless conversations drift round to the topic.

The thing is I don't think there are many places where you can live or work in the UK these days without being at least partly "exposed" to people from other regions, if you are not at least able to remain civil when dealing with someone who has a slightly different accent and background to yourself, then how are you going to manage with someone from another country?

The UK is a pretty "Multicultural" place these days, not being able to function in such an environment is a fundamental problem with someones social skills and ability to integrate...

Context goes along to way to how a term is deemed offensive.
??

Predictable.

But if somebody is still dwelling on where I grew up, and related stereotypes, the next day, a week, a month later, then yeah I'd be increasingly annoyed by it, and it only serves to demonstrate just how "small" that persons world view is...

TBH "Jock" not a term I've ever used with any of my Scottish co-workers or friends, if anything I find that I tend to ignore most peoples "point of origin", however obvious or not it might be, unless conversations drift round to the topic.

The thing is I don't think there are many places where you can live or work in the UK these days without being at least partly "exposed" to people from other regions, if you are not at least able to remain civil when dealing with someone who has a slightly different accent and background to yourself, then how are you going to manage with someone from another country?

The UK is a pretty "Multicultural" place these days, not being able to function in such an environment is a fundamental problem with someones social skills and ability to integrate...

Are you serious? You are Clare Barker and I claim my £5!