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Diesels are a different kettle of fish though FD - my experience has always been that you need to be more delicate with your inputs in a petrol to be smooth. Tractor engines are a bit more forgiving.. and you probably wouldn’t notice as much.
It’s not just full bore upshifts either. 1st > 2nd at 2.5-3 krpm is horrendously tricky to get right.
If you’re ever up in Newcastle have a blast - if you nail more than 50% of the gear changes up and down the box 1st-3rd I’ll give you £50 on the spot.
Youre right though BMW do it to protect the drivetrain mainly in the US market but now it’s here. As I said earlier there are literally thousands of threads about people getting them deleted from their cars. They’re a menace
Cougar
When I was last looking for a new car the manual was always the greener (and less spendy on tax) option.
I think you'll find that's no longer the case, I presume because they can programme the auto box to change gears at precisely the best point for emissions when running through the test programme.
E.g.
320d manual 61mpg 120g/km, auto 62mpg 118g/km 320i manual 44mpg 147 g/km, auto 47 mpg 141 g/km
Nick - fair enough will have to look at that, potentially looking at 135i.
As to auto v manual - ordinary cars auto all the way, easier to drive and more economical.
Bice sports cars ie caterham/lotus etc, manual every day!
I presume because they can programme the auto box to change gears at precisely the best point for emissions when running through the test programme.
I think it might have more to do with the fact you get 8 gears with narrower ratios, and top gear is probably really long. 8 close gears would be too much of a faff for a human to bother with, and when top gear is too tall you get fed up with changing out of it all the time. The computer won't care.
Mine (an old DSG) also does stuff like hold onto a gear in low speed situations, with the lower gear on the next shaft ready so it downshifts instantly as soon as I accelerate. I wouldn't do that as often in a manual, there'd be too much delay.
The big standard Toyota ones I used to get in Oz were decent
I had a Toyota Camry in the US about 10 years ago, the box was dreadful. Massive top gear, then the next one slightly lower - you hardly noticed that downshift. But even on motorway inclines out West that was not enough so it then had to slam it into third and accelerate back up to cruise speed. Every few minutes. Annoying as hell.
I think you’ll find that’s no longer the case
It is still the case because
they can programme the auto box to change gears at precisely the best point for emissions when running through the test programme.
Or similar. Basically they can fudge the test with autos so they always come out better than in reality. They're getting better but then they still have the weight penalty to overcome.
CVTs for the win!
Once you get over the weird disconnect between revs and speed they're ideal for normal driving.
For a DSG the penalty isn't so much weight (it's the same size as a manual near as dammit) but the fact there's a hydraulic pump required which reduces efficiency slightly. But the mechanical connection between the wheels and engine is no different to a manual.
In older boxes with torque converters these are less efficient in terms of power transmission because they use fluid couplings (AFAIK, I don't fully understand how they actually work).
However - if they can find the perfect shift points for the test programme they should also apply to an extent in real life, because they just accelerate up through the gears. If you have 8 gears the revs can stay really low all the time, and that's where you can tune the engine for efficiency.
CVTs for the win!
Yeah I like the effective CVT in the Prius. I was drawn to the idea of having one in a big cruiser, the idea of cruising with a big engine on really low revs appealed - but Audi stopped making them, I think they weren't reliable or popular enough.
I had a Toyota Camry in the US about 10 years ago, the box was dreadful. Massive top gear, then the next one slightly lower – you hardly noticed that downshift.
How is that relevant to the discussion apart from reminiscing? I'm talking about modern cars.
FD - If you're looking at a 135 definitely test a manual and an auto back to back if possible. I'd be very intrigued as to what BMW do with the proper M cars in manual flavour (although there aren't many around as most M4/3s have the DCT).
But even on motorway inclines out West that was not enough so it then had to slam it into third and accelerate back up to cruise speed. Every few minutes. Annoying as hell.
Depends on the incline but I can set the computer to do the speed and it will change gears up or down as required to maintain cruise speed. Proper hills require more finesse but most autos also have a “manual” mode but I will admit if you live in the mountains unless you are a big pickup towing then manuals are a better choice.
for the vast bulk of UK drivers autos are a good choice.
Got to say, although I decided to swap to auto because of nerve dmage in my left leg meaning I really, really couldn't drive in heavy traffic with constant clutch use, now I'll never go back.
I've had a VW Touareg with an 8sp auto, and it just gets the gears right all the time. I suspect that Auto is very suited to a 3.0tdi engine and a big lump to shift around but I actually didn't notice it had manual over ride until about a month ago - that's 3 years! The same system is in the Amarok I've just got. That does have flappy paddles but again, simply not needed on the road. My 125D that I drove for 3 years had an 8sp ZF box that was just brilliant. Smooth, fast changing, and even held gears based on the terrain map in the sat nav. In sports mode it was less smooth but bloody fast to change gear. In manual over ride, although the gear change was pretty much instant, 8 gears is just too many when trying to play at racing drivers going into a corner for example. It's not that I needed the engine braking, but sometimes on an empty road, it's fun to pretend. Having to go down 5 gears from 8-3 actually meant spending far too long looking at the revs and not concentrating on the road, so after a few weeks I left it in auto. Worked for the next 65000miles without me really noticing it!
Any new car will be auto from now on, and if I lived where there's more traffic, I suspect I would have changed 5 years earlier.
CVTs for the win!
Once you get over the weird disconnect between revs and speed they’re ideal for normal driving.
Yip, my Lexus has a bendy gearbox. It also has “full auto” and “flappy paddles” as options but I don’t use them at all. I just stick it in drive and cruise around like Lord Muck.
I think it’s awesome, but you should see some of the haters on the Lexus forums or on an FB advert feed.
But I'm converted, I do drive like a grandad in grandmas slippers so it makes ideal sense to me and my driving style. And it’s efficient too, rather the car is. Never notice any lag or jerky ness or ever being in the wrong gear for anything. Want to go faster? Put your foot down. Want to go slower? Take your foot off and apply the brakes. Honeslty what could be simpler or more effective?
The auto handbrake is ace, why the need for some hand operation lever? Just press the brake and that’s it, to move off press the brake and that’s it. Simple.
You lot do get your knickers in a twist over the most simple of mechanical/electrical assistance in cars.
Keep it simple for the driver, less distractions = more concentrated views.
How is that relevant to the discussion apart from reminiscing?
Sorry Sir. It was a response to the comment about Toyota standard gearboxes Sir with another anecdote about Toyota standad gearboxes. Sorry Sir won't do it again Sir.
2unfit2ride
You know its basically a VW DSG right?
I think they are different units but similar ideas. Not my quote but......
The DSG was developed by BorgWarner (same company that makes the Haldex and VAQ diffs), the PDK was developed by Porsche decades before the DSG came out. Currently the PDK is made by ZF Friedrichshafen, it shares zeros parts with the BorgWarner unit.
The setups are similar now though; they both use twin shaft, twin clutch, wet clutch systems. The DQ250 DSG found in the MK7 R is the exact same system found in the GTI too FYI, nothing other than different software for optimized shift points for each turbo. The DQ250 is rated at ~450TQ in stock form, no idea what the PDK is rated at but TQ can be much higher in a 911.
Happy to be proved wrong though.
"Keep it simple for the driver, less distractions = more concentrated views."
My experience of viewing this in action is that the more simple and less connected it is for the driver the less concentration they apply .
Hence why you get folk trying to use Facebook/watch movies/generally be wee fanies on the road.
No, I think that if people don't care about driving then they won't be made to care about it by having to change gear. Having to think about revs and gear changes doesn't make you start thinking about the cars around you or improve hazard perception.
I'm with molgrips here. If you don't care, you don't care. Less distraction, more time eyes spent on the road. That's got to be good right?
Less engaged you are in the drive the more likely you are tofill that time with other stuff.
There have been studies intoit especially with the advent of semi autonomous cars Havea look
I'm pro auto box but I'm against removing as much as you can from the drivers thought process
That is until vehicles area
Fully autonoumous
I like manuals. My last 5 series estate was a manual, had to search for a while to get one. Current car is an E class estate - you try finding one of those in a manual! But I have to say it's very relaxing to drive as a result, and in traffic it's great. I do miss having a gear box on fun roads, thankfully I still have a motorcycle and I can gear change to my heart's content. Sequential gearbox is really very good fun
Still sceptical.
Engaging with the car isn't engaging with the road. And besides, most people's driving is done in 6th anyway.
There have been studies intoit especially with the advent of semi autonomous cars Havea look
I’m pro auto box but I’m against removing as much as you can from the drivers thought process
Many other countries have predominantly auto cars, it's not an unusual thing.Having a stick to waggle does not make the UK's drivers that good to start with.
Having a stick to waggle does not make the UK’s drivers that good to start with.
No, but having windy complicated and busy roads, with loads of aggressive traffic makes UK drivers more attentive than in places like the USA where driving is way way down the list of most people's concentration priority list when driving.
If you ever drive there have a good look at people as they speed past you at 85 6ft from the car in front.. or on second thoughts, don't. But it's not cos they are driving autos.
I've driven in a few countries, the UK really isn't that bad by comparison.
If you ever drive there have a good look at people as they speed past you at 85 6ft from the car in front.. or on second thoughts, don’t.
Yep been there, that however sounds more like the m1 at times.
Id agree though that auto won't reduce or change attention on driving. It might actually mean some people are in the right gear more often.
What we really end up with is one of those what I think I do, what my mother thinks I do, what my friends think I do and what I actually do meme's
Read the part where I agreed with auto boxes. It was the comments about remove as much from the driver as possible I am against.
See auto front/dash lights.
You have half the drivers unaware that they are invisible from the rear because they can see so they are ok jack. Previously the clue was we will hummmm it's dark Infront and in my dash I'll turn the light stick on
"
No, but having windy complicated and busy roads, with loads of aggressive traffic makes UK drivers more attentive than in places like the USA "
The UK is not agressive driving. It's assholes driving but it's not agressive by any stretch. Nigeria , Azerbaijan and Angola. Now that's agressive.
Accidents were usually slow speed bumps or deaths . Nothing in between
The UK is not agressive driving. It’s assholes driving but it’s not agressive by any stretch. Nigeria , Azerbaijan and Angola. Now that’s agressive.
Ok caught by my own reasoning there. Happy to take your word for it!
that however sounds more like the m1 at times.
Imagine the M1 being four lanes and the lorries are in all the lanes doing 75mph and all the cars are now doing 85mph under and overtaking closing gaps to 6ft whilst also having a great old chinwag with the passenger and eating and drinking.
That's what Chicago's like.
Regarding auto headlights, it is regulatory issue and all cars can be set up so that parking or headlights turning on will light up the tail lights too.
It used to be rule here in .FI I recall but it was some EU thing which caused this requirement to be dropped but still some mfgrs/ importers do it in old (sensible) style.
Perhaps we should re-introduce manually advance/retard ignition in order to improve road safety and keep Johnny and Julia Driver from texting at the wheel.
I'm quite happy with auto 'boxes but struggle with electric handbrakes. My first experience of one was in the hilliest place I've ever driven - La Palma - and it took me a while to accept that it worked fine. I've only used one once since and I still didn't really like it. After decades of doing pretty complex things like changing gear and manual handbrake hill starts it becomes so much second nature that we are reluctant to cede control to the car (which we happily do in so many other areas). Give it a bit of time though, and auto 'boxes will become as ubiquitous as automatic ignition advance.
Until cars are fully automated, automatic gearboxes are nothing more than a horrible annoying distraction.
There is so much bollocks being spoken right there I just don’t know where to start! Yes, there are still some cars, usually van derived like Berlingos, where shifts are slow and sluggish, causing the car to nod up and down as you accelerate, but most modern cars have auto boxes where the shifts are barely perceptible, especially those on VAG, Mercedes and BMW. Even the Toyota Aygo has a fairly decent auto box for town driving, with flappy paddles if you want some fun, you just nudge the stick sideways, not unlike changing gear on a manual, you don’t even have to look! The Citroen C4 Cactus is even easier, there are three big buttons in front of the great big handbrake, marked ‘P’, ‘D’ and ‘R’. Care to hazard a guess as to what those letters mean, and how you use them?
My job involves driving dozens of different cars and vans every day, with a multitude of different gearboxes, and I can promise you that a manual box is far more distracting than an auto; with the latter it’s never an issue as to what gear you’re in, it’s almost impossible to stall an auto, (although one of my workmates did, he has no idea how), and in slow, stop/start traffic a manual becomes an annoying distraction, and painful if, like me you have knee joint issues. Over the last, nearly three years, I’ve driven well over 100,000 miles using all the different flavours of gearbox in a huge range of cars and vans, up to and including an ambulance, a Merc C63 AMG and a Maserati Ghibli, and little cars like Aygo, 108, Smart fourtwo, and everything in between, and I do NOT find auto boxes a distraction, the complete opposite in fact, because I never have to think what gear I need to be in, I can concentrate on what cars in front are doing, and what the road and weather are doing. Auto wipers and headlights are amazing additions, again just letting me concentrate on driving the sodding car!
I still enjoy driving a manual and for me (interested in cars and driving) it is more involving and it provides a degree of subtlety and fine control that I can notice and enjoy.
My daily driver is a DSG auto and it is a bloody fabulous piece of engineering (unlike some of the other bits of the car). <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">It will slip through the gears in normal unhurried driving smoothly and quickly. Faster than hands and feet can manage. </span>
It benefits from occasional manual shifting especially with high windage roof loads or hilly / twisty roads where it does that vile auto thing of shifting up and down incessantly. the car can't see approaching corners and gradient or surface changes and act proactively to select the right gear. That tech may come but a manual is still imo better for nadgery / difficult road conditions.
Still prefer driving the wife's manual car though (at least for shorter journeys). Fizzy petrol engine, manual gear box, lovely light clutch.
I do NOT find auto boxes a distraction, the complete opposite in fact, because I never have to think what gear I need to be in, I can concentrate on what cars in front are doing, and what the road and weather are doing. Auto wipers and headlights are amazing additions, again just letting me concentrate on driving the sodding car!
Indeed.
It's ok I long for the day when the car drives it's self entirely and your dickie knee can rest in peace.
They change gear at the wrong revs unless you press a button for short changes or press a button for long changes .. Then you have to press a button again to go back to the previous … It’s just a pain in the ass compared to a proper gear box,
I think this has probably been addressed, but on my DSG equipped car you just press either paddle to shift up/down whenever you want which puts it into manual mode as well. To get out of manual mode you just hold the right hand paddle a fraction longer. To get sport mode rather than normal you just pull back on the gearstick.
In summary;
- to switch to manual - no button presses - just start using the paddles
- to switch to sport mode - no button presses - just pull back on the stick (you know, like a manual but without the additional movement of your foot)
I long for the day when the car drives it’s self entirely
I hope CountZero's retired by then 🙂
I hope I'm dead by then. It sounds horrendous.
I long for the day when the car drives it’s self entirely
Uber?
Depends. Be like trains that go to the place you want to go rather than vaguely near /possibly not at all
Deck it out with a couple of beds and do my traveling during the night.... There's little pleasure in driving be it auto , manual or even a BMW M3. It's all the same at 4 mph in stop start traffic. Shit
Uber who ? Nearest Uber to me is at least 100miles.
Any it's also subject to the same failibles that any other vehicle has.
Just caught up on this. I wonder if many of the auto naysayers haven't experienced a modern auto box?
I was always dead against the concept. When I eventually ended up with an auto through work I thought "I'm not using that, I'll use the semi-auto and change gear myself." It took about a fortnight before I sacked off changing gears myself and never used the feature again. It was night and day from the auto boxes I'd driven in the 90s.
I've driven autos in the US, and as someone said earlier even modern US boxes are toilet. IME they're usually coupled to an engine with more litres than horsepower, so you don't really have an accelerator so much as a foot-operated volume control. Our cars aren't like that.
I've had DSG and S-tronic. On the DSG on an uphill corner you get this weird lag changing down, weird. Wouldn;t get that in a manual would you.
I like manuals in some cars, i like auto/semi-auto in others. Have been driving a PDK which is quite impressive.
Aye, modern autos are very impressive indeed. My wife was very sceptical about the ZF8 in my M135i but literally half an hour behind the wheel and she was sold. We share our cars and said we’d always have one manual to keep our eye in.. but if she’s got the option she takes the auto.. partly due to the fact the gearbox is bolted to that lovely 6 pot but mainly due to the smooth and easy nature of the ‘box.
It’s quite a feat of engineering. So smooth you’d think it was running on double cream when you want and whip crack up shifts and throttle blipped downshifts when you don’t.
I wonder if many of the auto naysayers haven’t experienced a modern auto box?
The BMW 8 speed auto is great for relaxed hassle free driving, but it is shite if you want to use it as a semi automatic. Overtaking can be a real pain too. The car has more than enough power/torque to overtake with 2000rpm, but no the auto insists on red lining it (after changing down when you have already started your overtake manoeuvre). On motorways you can also be plodding along in 8th gear with very few revs ie < 2000 and then prod the accelerator a tiny bit and it will change down. Its that annoying in traffic that some times I knock it in to manual.
Even in full manual it still overrides your request.
BMW don't use this gearbox in their performance models.
Nick - must have been writing at the same time.. different views of exactly the same gearbox.
As for auto / manual being distracting,
I wonder if this is dependant on the personality type of the driver? Someone who believes in "making progress" is perhaps likely to be more engaged and focused the more they had to do, so would be better served with a manual box, whereas your monospeeders would benefit from fewer things to think about so an auto would mean they could concentrate on the road more?
The car has more than enough power/torque to overtake with 2000rpm, but no the auto insists on red lining it
Is that not dependant on how hard you press the loud pedal?