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Why exactly?
Erm democracy. It's kinda how it works, you don't like a gov you vote them out. Under the PR system that scotland has, the people will have more influence than just a labour/tory merry go round. (Your insistence that Scotland will be tied to SNP policy for ever is highly flawed.)
Again we ask, show us one country, that has left the british umbrella and wants back?
Why would Scotland, uniquely, regret the decision to separate?
tired.....
sad.....
losing the will to live.....
You talk nationalism (we're just better!) but deny exceptionalism.
You talk up having better social policy (in the future) , but fail to explain where the money will come from.
When challenged you shout "tory" but you willingly vote for the party in Scotland that has applied massive (>austerity) cuts to councils.
Please just give your high horse a rest.
Or admit it was a unicorn all along.
When challenged you shout “tory” but you willingly vote for the party in Scotland that has applied massive (>austerity) cuts to councils.
I don't vote SNP but this is pure bullshine. The SNP hav e a fixed pot of money to spend - amount set by westminster. When its cut then the scots government has to cut.
Any taxraising powers are small
just the 1 country is all we ask?
seosamh77
...Again we ask, show us one country, that has left the british umbrella and wants back?
Why would Scotland, uniquely, regret the decision to separate?
This question cuts through all the bullshit of Unionist FUD about independence that has been used on every country seeking independence since (and including) the USA got independence.
So what's the answer?
More FUD?
I’m not ‘cherry picking’ which years to look at, I’m saying for 2/3 of your quoted period which would have given us the above alleged glorious wealth, there could only have been much less glorious wealth generated than you claim, and even in the ten years at the start of your period we weren’t producing much more.
Read the link I posted. Not only has Norway not produce more oil over the yeas but has in fact produced less. 42.8 BOE for the UK vs 40 BOE for Norway.
https://resourcegovernance.org/blog/did-uk-miss-out-%C2%A3400-billion-worth-oil-revenue
epicyclo,
That describes how you and seosamh feel, and it's all very noble (and clearly not the very definition of nationalism x-) but it fails to take into account that its not how the majority of people in Scotland feel.
It's also not how the majority of catalans feel and the majority of welsh, cornish, alsatians, and the people of any number of other regions which were once independent and could be again if the will existed. Are they all "Yoons!"?
Personally, I think larger groupings with more diversity are better. I like the UK (without liking the current political situation) I like Europe (without obviously liking the current shitshow of our relationship to it).
You want independence for noble reasons (not nationalism®) , but as long as you can't afford the social democratic paradise you're fantasising about I'll keep the uncomfortable reality and the ability to afford shoes.
Maybe if you understood just how much I HATE Brexit and everything it stands for, but that I still think Scottish independence would be a step in the wrong direction you would have a better idea about how I feel about political lies dressed up in flags.
Honestly, using Brexit to kick up a storm about Scottish independence is a bit rich when anyone who voted to leave the UK in 2014 also voted to leave the EU.
We have a solution, a solution proposed by a staunch Brexit supporter here at work.
Pack your bags Scotland you are moving to Ireland and the Irish are moving to Scotland.
No border issues, except the Sea.
Off you trot..
🤣🤷♂️
And i’d say that’s a fairly typical attitude from a Beexiteer.
anyone who voted to leave the UK in 2014 also voted to leave the EU.
Eh????
stevenmenmuir,
Yup.
Despite the SNP FUD at the time Scotland would have been out of Europe once it left the UK.
Nicola even threatened to bring the status of european citizens currently in scotland into the discussion over scotlands future relationship with europe. (May borrowed that one to good effect, and less kow-towing from the SNP).
Theres even a video of a nat spokesman saying "we'll be out of europe for a long as it takes us to round up the europeans living here and stick them on a ferry".
Good times. Happy memories. Lets do it all again!! :O)
(Those thoughts and plans were brought to you by "Not Nationalism®" and the number "we don't do numbers they're on the side of the yoons").
anyone who voted to leave the UK in 2014 also voted to leave the EU.
Horse shit. Many people I know who voted no, did so because the unionists wheeled out a Spaniard to say we'd be out of Europe.
How's that working out now, no voters?.
I wonder if Liam Fox will set out Scotch whisky's geographical protections to the yanks along with the Cornish pasties and Mowbray pies
Its our biggest export.
They've already started with marketing 'British' whisky in Canada.
nobeer,
Not just a Spaniard.
Also, as I recall, "being out" was the default, the Spaniard was wheeled out to say we wouldn't be allowed back in. (to avoid encouraging other independence movements).
I'm not saying that things haven't gone Pete Tong since then, just that being out of Europe has gone from "doesn't matter" to "central reason for our movement" among independence supporters.
Its almost like all they have is a hammer, and every political issue is a nail.
I'd tend to agree that it's being used a motivator whereas it wasn't before, but tbh, I don't think anyone had even thought that it was a possibility that we'd be out, and definitely weren't as up to speed on what a shit show coming out would actually be.
2014 was a long time ago, times change, people change, the only thing that doesn't change is being governed by the entitled elite.
I'd agree ETP, well almost. Scotland could have been out of the EU, and negotiating it's way to rejoin, already compliant with EU law and standards. Meantime the rest of the UK would have voted to leave by a bigger margin. How would that have affected the EU negotiating stance regarding Scotland's membership, it has certainly changed the Spanish view
Meantime though it's a matter of recorded fact that many Scots( meaning people who live in Scotland) voted for independence and voted to remain in the EU.
Obvs. only speculation, but if scotland had gone for Indy in 2014, it probably would have led to no Brexit vote in the UK.
Just as seeing the brexit shitshow has opened peoples eyes to the immense difficulty of separation, and highlighted the economic lies that were told during the campaign, (and increased the pro european feeling throughout europe), the aftermath of a Yes vote in 2014 would have been a very close and immediate warning about the real costs of nationalism.
The unravelling of the book of dreams would have been a horrific thing to behold.
The "half a billion quid over 2 years" (or was it £200M?) to set up scotland as independent, would look a bit weak.
The record low oil price on "independence day" would probably have been blamed on an MI5 plot.
The rest of the plot can write itself.
So be careful what you wish for.
Meantime though it’s a matter of recorded fact that many Scots( meaning people who live in Scotland) voted for independence and voted to remain in the EU.
Absolutely, I know many SNP voters are pro Europe (although I heard recently that a greater proportion of SNP supporters voted for brexit than supporters of any other party in scotland?< not 100% sure about that i'll have to look it up).
But being out of europe was the reality of the situation, it was just a price that people were prepared to pay (or something that they actively wanted, to get out of the CFP for example).
Its not a simple situation.
It won't be improved by more constitutional shennanigans.
The unravelling of the book of dreams would have been a horrific thing to behold
At least there was a published book, was there a Brexit whitepaper?.
eat the pudding, how difficult it is is completely irrelevant, whether or not the scottish people want to do it or not is the only defining factor.
I agree it isn't the majority position at the moment.
nobeer,
You seem to be mistaking my contempt for the lies of 2014 indy campaign, for approval of the lies of the brexit campaign.
I have equal contempt for both.
Do you have no comment on the economic position we'd be in if Yes had won in 2014?
seosamh
If the Scottish people had said Yes on the basis of the lies in the book of dreams in 2014 and then discovered how they had been misled, should they get a second vote, or would that be it?
Do you have no comment on the economic position we'd be in if Yes had won in 2014?
The more you guys talk the more it seems like independence is the only destination you care about. Doesn't matter of you arrive scraping along the tarmac without your legs and only half a head.
Brexit squared.
But still we have not been given an instance of a country regretting its decision to cut loose from the UK.
Instead of giving us a lot of white noise, why not answer that?
ETP there could well be truth in what you say. Post 2014 the Book of Dreams was picked apart like a dead rabbit and fairly comprehensively been shown to be a wishlist at best. That could well explain Scotlands Brexit vote as more of us have become more cynical and immune to bullshit.
That said and done, I reluctantly voted Yes in the end, perhaps against my better judgement but if presented with another vote it would be far less clear cut. The problems we faced in 2014 have not gone away and still need to be addressed and accounted for but if it can be done so convincingly then I would be more inclined to vote Yes.
That said, I agree that internationalism beats nationalism by a country mile.
seosamh
If the Scottish people had said Yes on the basis of the lies in the book of dreams in 2014 and then discovered how they had been misled, should they get a second vote, or would that be it?Do you have no comment on the economic position we’d be in if Yes had won in 2014?
I've made all my arguments on this thread,the enonomics aren't great, but they aren't unworkable. I've been fairly clear in my position, there's really not any point in going round in circles. No-one is changing anyones opinion here.
Yes, I'd allow a 2nd vote after an agreement was reached I said as much at that start of the thread. I've no desire to snatch independence on a 50%+1 fluke. It needs to be the settled will of the majority.
a wishlist at best
It's all it ever was, an SNP manifesto, nothing more, nothing less. It had nothing to do with how a future scotland would turn out.
Anyhow, I'm out, enjoy the rest of this.
epicyclo,
Its a silly question. And it does not prove that independence is an ultimate good in its own right, which you seem to think it is despite not being a "nationalist".
(Jeebus the irony nearly flipped my brain out my ear just then x-).
Its like the question creationists ask; Why is earth so completely suited to our needs if it wasn't created by God?
But here are some answers;
1. Maybe the countries that get independence are the ones that really wanted it.
2. Maybe most countries that achieve independence live a long way from those from whom they obtain it and have little in common with them?
3. Maybe the only ones that would ever "regret" it would be those scoobied into it on the basis of a false economic prospectus?
4. Maybe Scotland would be the first of those?
Actually point 4. is wrong. If you view Brexit as being independence from the EU. I can show you a country that regrets it already on the basis of 3. (look down .. that one).
So, a positive view of your question depends on a majority that doesn't exist in scotland, and it isn't a universal law (see Brexit).
Good enough?
Also, apparently, from a quick google, this is true
Although Jamaica never actually voted for independence, an opinion poll survey from 2011 conducted by The Jamaican Gleaner found that 60% of Jamaicans believed that the country would have been better off remaining under British rule, with 17% disagreeing.
seosamh,
I'd settle for the "settled will of the majority" as well.
Sans falsehood, and wavy hands positive thinking.
Theres a genuine case for requiring > 50% of the whole electorate (whether they vote or not) or 60% of the overall vote for changes that are irreversible (again, see Brexit).
Theres a genuine case for requiring > 50% of the whole electorate
40% was what they put on the 79 ref.
I could agree with a requirement to meet a certain percentage of the turn out as it stands. Or a percentage of the total electorate if compulsory voting was introduced. The electoral roll in 79 was hugely out of date meaning that people who had died or emigrated effectively voted no.