[Closed] Is Kettling Morally Wrong?

As above read etc

Being obnoxious doesn't add any weight to your argument, you know.

so there is now three of us who cant read then? Perhaps you are poor at expressing yourself except when being patronising?
here let me do the bit ernie omitted

and you seem to expect them to treat everyone breaking the law on the day with a cup of tea and a nice chat over a biscuit to ascertain whether they are going to torch the place or not.

Personally whenever this stuff goes off I thank the Lord we live where we do and have the policing we now have.

WRT "anarchists",

I know an actual anarchist or two (if so far as one can be an 'official' anarchist without being oxymoronic). I haven't spoken to them about it, but I'd expect them to be appalled at seeing their logo sprayed all over the place in association with the thuggery that was going on.

Precisely Cougar, that's why I'm loathed to call them "anarchists".

that's why I'm loathed

Do you set these up on purpose to see who bites?

(-:

duckman - Member

My best mate is of the same rank,he thinks the female Inspector wants the protesters out the shop asap,without any damage,therefore took the decision to say "Whatever she had to" to get them out of the shop.

OK, I know it's been said already but it didn't seem to sink in- the protestors had already tried to leave, and the video shows the Police asking them to stay in the shop. Doing "whatever she had to" would mean just stepping out of the way. This argument could not possibly be more wrong.

Cougar - Member

Apparently they're being charged with trespass. How does one trespass in a publicly accessible shop?

It's pretty textbook aggravated trespass tbh- the protestors wouldn't dispute that I think.

 

QUOTE: yunki - Member

"At the miners strike, they had to draft in a bunch of hired thugs with no numbers (Army?)."

I'm pretty certain I remember a family friend who was one of the armed forces personnel drafted in..

I might be wrong though.. got a mind like a seive

UNQUOTE.

You're totally correct.

About being wrong that is.

No HMF personnel were drafted in, this has been a much a loved lefty conspiracy theory for years.

The closest thing to military involvement was the fact that some police officers kipped in TA drill halls.

I suggest you read up on the Miners Strike mate, particularly the battle of Orgreave.

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/mar/07/miners-strike-memories ]

[b]Adrian Simpson, a fitter at Hatfield Main colliery[/b]

I was on strike but I had never been on a picket line. One day in August 1984, I stopped by the colliery to talk to a couple of senior staff. I saw all these riot police coming. There were hundreds of them. As I left to go back to my car, all hell broke lose. I saw a police officer with a fire extinguisher in his hand, bashing a lad in the back.[b] I tried to get closer to note down the officer's number but they were wearing black boilersuits with no numbers.[/b] The next thing I knew, a police officer struck me from behind. I was coming in and out of consciousness as I was dragged across the road into an alleyway. They blocked off the alley and beat another lad and me with sticks until I was unconscious. I was driven to Doncaster police station in a riot van. I'll never forget, there was a big desk sergeant where they book you in. He said: "What the f-ng hell have they done to you?"

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Orgreave#The_aftermath ]

Ninety-five picketers were charged with riot, unlawful assembly and similar offences after the battle. A number of these were put on trial in 1987, but the trials collapsed, all charges were dropped and a number of lawsuits were brought against the police for unlawful arrest. South Yorkshire Police later agreed to pay £425,000 compensation and £100,000 in legal costs to 39 pickets in an out of court settlement.

Black boilersuits, you say?

Well, that sounds like conclusive proof to me.
They must have been from the Royal Tank Regiment then.

🙄

You're totally correct.

About being wrong that is.

well.. It's funny that you should say that..

I was pondering this possibility earlier.. and not wanting to publish any incorrect info on the net (heaven forbid).. I called the guy in question..

Turns out that I [i]am[/i] wrong.. it was hippies at Stonehenge and the 80s peace convoy that his lot were drafted in to disperse... dressed in mufti as security guards..

my mistake.. 😳

sorry to have caused any confusion.. but can I ask how you feel qualified to be so [i]absolutely[/i] resolute in your assertion..?

just for interests sake..

I suspect the few anarchists I have met (not a lot and not recently tbh) couldn't give a monkey's about a few students spraying some paint and breaking windows one way or the other. It's a sideshow and an irrelevance.

the video shows the Police asking them to stay in the shop

Today's take on events from the Grauniad:
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/30/uk-uncut-arrests-protests ]UK Uncut arrests threaten future protests, lawyer warns[/url]

bravohotel8er where do you get your confidence from? Using the army in support of the civil power was very common in the 70's and 80's including sending the SAS in to prison riots. For the Miner's strike a number of welsh miners came to Yorkshire and found themselves opposite friends and relatives who they had last heard of as being in the army and now found in police uniforms. This i read in the book "state of siege" which was a reasonably well informed exploration of the policing of the strike.

now..
I like Elfin and crankboys alleged conspiracy theory..
and then again I like bravehotel8ers anti-conspiracy theory-conspiracy theory..

but which one is best..?
there's only one way to find out...

FIIIIIGGGGGHHT!!

There were however incidents which were not associated with the march that required a police presence. The police put the numbers involved in these incidents at about 500, of which over 200 were arrested.

I'm pretty sure thats what I said.

Bearing in mind that the police had at their disposal over 4,500 officers which up until that point had not been needed, to deal with 500 individuals, you can hardly talk about "an extremely stretched resource" ffs.

And since you are also obviously clueless, let me explain about the way policing works.....regardless of who is marshalling the march they have to have resources in place to deal with potentially volatile situations which is what they did. You then have two seperate hi jack protests, one violent and one less so..... which I'm pretty sure is what I said too. At the time they occurred the Police don't have instant knowledge of scale, scope or outcome, or for that matter who is involved. Therefore they will take steps on the basis of the information to hand, whilst still maintaining sufficient resources to deal with the main march. Seems to me they handled it pretty well given that the obvious intent of the two hijacks was to do just that and provoke headlines.

Wrong question.

Is kettling [s]morally wrong[/s] effective?

I'm pretty sure thats what I said.

I copied and pasted what you said. Let me do it again :

[i]"So you've got an extremely stretched resource having to deal with serious riot conditions"[/i]

The police were not "extremely stretched". Far from it, they had over 4,500 officers in case they were needed, but the march and the rally passed without incidents - and was stewarded by the TUC. So 4,500 officers to deal with, according to the police, 500 misbehaving protesters. I can't see where you get the "extremely stretched resource" from.

At the time they occurred the Police don't have instant knowledge of scale, scope or outcome, or for that matter who is involved.

I have already shown you the link which proves that the occupation of Trafalgar Square for example (which was were most of the trouble occurred) was pre-planned and was up on the Black Bloc website days before the event. I'll do again for you :

http://www.resist.org.uk/uk/anti-cuts/march-for-the-alternative/

The police were fully aware what to expect and where it expect it. They didn't need to have "instant knowledge".

I'll stick to my ordinal claim that you are clueless about the events on Saturday. Although I'm sure you'll come back and repeat the same ill-informed comments.

.

Using the army in support of the civil power was very common in the 70's and 80's including sending the SAS in to prison riots.

Certainly in the 70s and 80s the British army was one of the experienced in the world, if not the most experienced, in dealing with civil unrest, as a result of their deployment in Northern Ireland where they dealt with everything including policing demonstrations and marches.

Mr Woppit - Member

Wrong question.

Is kettling [s]morally wrong[/s] effective?

Well done Woppit.....you never disappoint.

Of course shooting protesters is extremely effective, if "effective" is what you're looking for, as Tiananmen Square proved. And I'm sure with your morality not a problem.

Kettling however probably isn't quite as effective as some might like to believe. It is designed to prevent disorder from occurring, but often it is responsible for the complete opposite.

There was no kettling on the TUC march on Saturday, and there was no trouble. Had there been any kettling, then I am absolutely certain there would have been trouble.

ernie_lynch

blah blah balh

I thought there was kettling at Traf square? Seemed to work.

Should have been done earlier in Piccadilly, might have prevented the little gang of morons from getting in the way of those who weren't paticularly interested in marching to the park witness Ed "Glottal Stop" Millibrain from comparing himself to MLK, Madeba, jesus christ, etc....

Your assumption that I would link shooting with kettling, or even that there IS a link, merely betrays what a complete plonker you are.

But then, we knew that.

PS: Leave Fred alone, he can't help it (you know what that's like...).

What have I done now? 😯

Berm Bandit - have a look at the clip in the link I posted this morning from the Grauniad - [url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/30/uk-uncut-arrests-protests ]link[/url]

It shows a TSG briefing before the event where the commander is saying that they are going to make Criminal Trespass a priority.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if the top bods were envisaging something different to what transpired, i.e. using that against more militant types than those they ended up arresting.

Your assumption that I would link shooting with kettling, or even that there IS a link, merely betrays what a complete plonker you are.

Well I think your priority of what is effective over what is morally acceptable, reinforces what I already knew about you 😀

... which is as close to zero as makes no difference.

Why would it ever make any difference ? ! 😀

Well I've bin to many demos in me time, and seen kettling employed on peaceful crowds, then witnessed it kicking off as a result. So proof, not that it were needed of course, that kettling isn't actually all that effective in prventing trouble.

See, you've learned something here Woppit. And I won't charge you for it. 🙂

I am overwhelmed by your generosity Fred. 🙂

It's very effective at damping down rioting nitwits, though...

Which is nice.

It's not. As I've just explained.

That's genuine experience of such things, Woppit, not just politically biased accounts in't right-wing press.

It's very effective at damping down rioting nitwits

You have not a clue what kettling is Woppit. It is suppose to be a "preventive measure".

I have been kettled on several occasions, no rioting was taking place. And no arrests were made btw.

crankboy - Member

bravohotel8er where do you get your confidence from? Using the army in support of the civil power was very common in the 70's and 80's including sending the SAS in to prison riots. For the Miner's strike a number of welsh miners came to Yorkshire and found themselves opposite friends and relatives who they had last heard of as being in the army and now found in police uniforms.

Lots of ex-military used to join the police.

Move along son, there's nothing to see here.

"Lots of ex-military used to join the police." yep and during the strike a lot of current military put on police uniforms as an aid to the civil power.

Mr Woppit - Member

Wrong question.

Is kettling effective?

Depends on whether you think it's a way of preventing trouble or a way of provoking it, really.

If it's the former, then it's sometimes effective, but IMO more often not. If it's the latter, then it's highly effective.

Course, that's the subject of a Heated Debate- personally I have no idea whether what I've seen were cases of a kettle used badly, and the violence was an unintended consequence, or whether that was the intention. I'm inclined to think it's generally the former, but I'm sure plenty of people would say the opposite. (I tend to go by Heinlein's Razor)

crankboy - Member
yep and during the strike a lot of current military put on police uniforms as an aid to the civil power.

No they didn't, you ridiculous nutter.

you ridiculous nutter.

You pride yourself on being a more sensible kind of nutter ?

More a nutter in denial, I'd say...

If they had not waited until Traf Square to use it, it would have saved a lot of people a lot of scrubbing work on the Sunday in Piccaddilly.

Would have been able to get a decent high tea at Fortnums too...

Mr Woppit - Member
Would have been able to get a decent high tea at Fortnums too...

Doubtless elfin and ernie will be along in a minute to remind you that 'proper tea is theft'.

Wouldn't that be a tad predictable? 🙂

bravohotel8er ta for the character assessment. what do you base your denial upon? The army have been deployed to back up or replace the fire brigade the prison service and mountain rescue why do you think it would be mad or indeed a conspiracy to believe they were deployed during the miners strike?

I base my view on a reasonably well researched book and the experiences of people who were involved on both sides.

bravohotel8er ta for the character assessment. what do you base your denial upon?

I've seen this sort of reasoned and level headed debating tactic from the brave hotelier before..
I reckon he's picked up a bit of shrapnel in WWII..

Doubtless elfin and ernie will be along in a minute to remind you that 'proper tea is theft'.

There's no need to cane a perfectly good joke.

Try to increase your repertoire 💡

ernie_lynch - Member

Doubtless elfin and ernie will be along in a minute to remind you that 'proper tea is theft'.

There's no need to cane a perfectly good joke.

Try to increase your repertoire

Sorry darjeeling.

TAXI!

OK that's better. I quite like that.......you've redeemed yourself slightly.

That just about takes the biscuit.

Mr Woppit - Member
That just about takes the biscuit.

I've had just about enough of your lipton.

*rings for another taxi*

Oh how typical that you two should be hobnobbing 😐