[Closed] Is Kettling Morally Wrong?

Well as I said, they most definitely didn't use kettling at Wapping, despite the fact they used plenty of truly nasty tactics there.

But anyway, if you want to bring forward the introduction of kettling by 10 years it make no odds to me.

And I'll inform the geezer who keeps demanding to know of "a viable and practical alternative"............[i]The Met police managed perfectly OK for nearly 200 years until the Criminal Justice Bill demos back in the early 90s without using the kettling tactic.[/i]

How do you suppose they managed ?

The police have both the power and the duty to control an assembly this I assume is what you mean by "kettling" this comes from the Public Order Act.

Kettling is not the same as police powers under s14 of the Public Order Act, and those powers may only be exercised if the conditions in s14(1) (a) and (b) have been satisfied.

The Public Order Act does not create a duty on the police to control assemblies.

The power to kettle doesn't come from the Public Order Act. It's the common law power to prevent a breach of the peace which is being exercised.

Couple of posters referring to the illegality of kettling. It is not illegal.

The legality depends on the circumstances, manner and purpose for which it is exercised.

Poll tax riots in Scotland 89 Kettling was used.

The Met police managed perfectly OK for nearly 200 years until the start of the Iraq War without using the kettling tactic.

How do you suppose they managed ?

Psst...Ernie; Peterloo!

The kettling tactic may have had it's day anyway. Not because of any legal ruling or change of heart by senior politicians, sorry I meant police officers. Kettling is likely to be dropped because it doesn't work.

Have any of you heard of Sukey? No?

Social media and mobile technology allow demonstrators to share info on police tactics in real time and adjust accordingly. This has happened at the last 3 or 4 protests. The police are totally out of their depth when it comes to this kind of stuff and I'd put money on it being why they adopted a more cautious approach on saturday.

Lastly regarding to stuff about the mentality of both 'sides'. The reason that protesting has evolved faster than policing is easy to explain. They live and breath it, the police get paid to be there. The idea that violence is carried out by thugs is bollocks. This is not violence against society, it's against the state - a different thing entirely and outside the remit of your average thug.

As GSH said 'the revolution will not be televised'. It will however be on twitter.

Sukey knows, and it really is just a beginning.

Oh and in case people aren't aware, the police themselves got kettled on Saturday. The trojan horse should have been a clue but there we go...

This is not violence against society, it's against the state

Psst...Ernie; Peterloo!

Well if you want to use Britain's "Tiemann Square" as an example of a tactic used by the Met until it adopted kettling, then I think it might be slightly flawed.

First of all it was the army not the police who carried out the massacre, secondly it occurred in Manchester not in the Met region, and finally, it all happened many years before Britain even had a police force. Other than that it's quite a good example.

Although I still want to know how the Met managed for almost 200 years without using kettling.

you know the answer ernie. its name is whitehall

Well,10 the met is not 200 years old.
Re Peterloo...I know,I was taking the pee.However...it is an alternative,you have to admit it.Just think;police not receiving negative press,in fact people delighted to be kettled instead of sabred to the ground.Would you stop to write pithy remarks on Nelsons column if drunk cavalry were forming up at the other end of the square? I like the Tiemann Square comparison though.

Pre-emptive collective punishment. Yes it is morally wrong.

No idea whether legal or not - but certainly morally reprehensible outside of very limited, closely defined circumstances.

The clue really is in the name - I don't know whether this moniker was applied by the Police or the media.

If the Police came up with the name for this tactic then it really does suggest a desire to deploy aggresive action against members of the public.

The very idea of the kettle (kessel as used by the Wehrmacht) is to cut off and isolate a large pocket, deny any exit or reinforcement and then [b][i]apply heat[/i] until it boils.[/b] ie apply pressure until the contained collapse or fight their way out.

Applied in civil situations it seems an approach gauaranteed to result in violence.

This seemed quite strange is it standard practise to keep clothes/phones of people charged with aggravated trespass?

[url= http://brightgreenscotland.org/index.php/2011/03/my-day-in-the-cells ]My day in the cells[/url]

the met is not 200 years old

Ah, that will probably explain why I used the terms "nearly 200 years" and "almost 200 years" then.

Because of course the Met is not 200 years old..........as everyone knows, it's 192 years old.

is it standard practise to keep clothes/phones of people charged with aggravated trespass?

I'm just guessing but I would assume the argument would be that they kept the phone as evidence because they thought/hoped it would be full of text messages saying "let's trespass and disrupt/obstruct/intimidate those bastards at Fortnum's". (You need to show disruption/obstruction of legal activity or intimidation of people doing it to make out Agg Trespass).

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/33/section/68

NFI how the clothes come into it, though.

Lifer,how is stopping the ruling classes buying really expensive pate going to stick it to "the man"?

Ernie,you don't have sole user licence for pedantry...182 years old,actually.

Clothes might be seized if relevant to identifying someone. (Or forensics, but would guess at ID for aggravated trespass). Eg. footage of anti-capitalists with balaclava but distinctive Nike tracksuit, say.
(Can't get the link, assuming it's about an arrested protester of some sort).

duckman - Member
Lifer,how is stopping the ruling classes buying really expensive pate going to stick it to "the man"?

Eh?

@thegreatape - yeah UKUncut protester, videoed and questioned at the scene so ID isn't a problem.

Don't know then.

Surely the key point is that the 'kettle' was not imposed until [b]after[/b] the violence had broken out?

you cannot blame the kettle for the outbreak of violence, it wasn't in place, indeed by all accounts from even the lefty media, the policing was extremely low key up to that point.

Once violence has broken out, its more than reasonable and proportionate to contain a crowd, which contains the violent minority mixed in with other, innocent protesters to ensure that the violence does not spread to other locations, and until you can ensure that the violent minority are either separated from the innocent ones, or are no longer going to cause any damage - "you're not going anywhere until the naughty ones calm down"

clearly the correct answer, would be for the peaceful innocent protesters to distance themselves from any outbreaks of violence, and give up those who damaged their cause by breaking the law.

Elfin, did your teacher at school, when you went, ever keep the class behind because they were misbehaving? I suppose you thought it was reasonable to start smashing chairs and stuff because 'he broke my humin rights, innit' 🙄

IIRC there was no kettling this weekend.

Maybe the Police couldn't be bothered to isolate the troublemakers as they are also public sector workers and are working to rule.

you don't have sole user licence for pedantry

I think the STW collective should really think about clubbing together for a group licence. Massive savings to be made.

Lifer; I was just curious as to why you were occupying F&M.

On a slightly different note, I think the protestors are all a bit daft actually. If you want to bring down a system everyone knows you do it quietly and from within. Not by smashing random shop windows and screaming at random public sector workers. ElfinSafety likes to brag about using reasonable force against what he deems as illegal detention by police, but unfortunately what is reasonable force can sometimes be in the eye of the beholder, i.e how that person perceives the threat etc. People like Elfin are purely opposite numbers to the police that he so thoroughly dislikes, and as such are equally distasteful.

duckman - Member
Lifer; I was just curious as to why you were occupying F&M.

I wasn't. Not my blog.

Apparently it was targeted because it's owned by a company that uses charitable status as a tax avoidance tool.

Lifer, did you get lasagne too?
I likes lasagne.

duckman - Member
Lifer; I was just curious as to why you were occupying F&M.

To scare the cr@p out of the tourists in there? (Tourists who generate a massive amount of tax revenue when they visit the UK)
To scare the cr@p out of the staff who work there? (Staff who are, obviously all evil toryscum innit? Not one of them is just an oridinary bod earning a crust and, oh yes, paying their taxes)
To have a go at their parents? Seeing as most of the protesters are almost certainly from comfortable middle class backgrounds.
Etc. etc. etc.

Pathetic little children ruined the day for all those who chose to protest. I disagree with the main protest, as it happens, as I think we have little choice but to make cuts, but I would always defend the right of peaceful protest for those who chose to do it.

Apparently it was targeted because it's owned by a company that uses charitable status as a tax avoidance tool.

Did they go and smash up the Guardian as well then?

Sorry Lifer,assumed it was you. I would be inclined to suggest it was a target because of its traditional user,as was the Ritz.Historically the first place the mob trashed was where the upper classes spent their money and leisure time.(Then the mayors house,hint hint Londoners)Not really what the protests were supposed to be about mind.

As ever, the Mash.....

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/britain-prefers-anarchists-to-miliband-201103283664/ ]BURNING Fortnum and Mason to the ground is a more credible alternative to the budget cuts than Ed Miliband, a survey has found.

[/url]

Refering to the OP: What is morally wrong is anarchists hijacking every flaming protest nowadays which is effectively creating a situation whereby the right to protest for the ordinary man in the street is becoming severely eroded.

I disagree with the main protest, as it happens, as I think we have little choice but to make cuts,

Yeah but in fairness Flashy, that's cos you have almost no real understanding of how those cuts will affect real people, because you yourself will be relatively unaffected. So if it don't affect you, then you're not really bothered, are you? Come down to where I live, and I will show you the reality of the effects of such cuts. I guarantee you will change your mind.

On a slightly different note, I think the protestors are all a bit daft actually. If you want to bring down a system everyone knows you do it quietly and from within. Not by smashing random shop windows and screaming at random public sector workers. ElfinSafety likes to brag about using reasonable force against what he deems as illegal detention by police, but unfortunately what is reasonable force can sometimes be in the eye of the beholder, i.e how that person perceives the threat etc. People like Elfin are purely opposite numbers to the police that he so thoroughly dislikes, and as such are equally distasteful.

As has bin established, if you'd bin paying attention, it was a tiny minority of people who caused any trouble.

Not by smashing random shop windows and screaming at random [b]public sector workers[/b].

Do you actually know what you're on about? 😕

People like Elfin

You're just being daft now. There's no-one like me.... 😀

Seeing as most of the protesters are almost certainly from comfortable middle class backgrounds.

Oh are they now? And how d'you know this Flashy? Were you there? No, you weren't, were you? Just making massive assumptions as usual. Sorry, you seem a decent enough feller most of the time, but you do come across as very socially naive and blinkered, it has to be said.

Fred leading the Suffolk Hunt on day of demo

😆

Tally ho!

What is morally wrong is anarchists hijacking every flaming protest nowadays which is effectively creating a situation whereby the right to protest for the ordinary man in the street is becoming severely eroded.

Well said, sir, well said.

I'd agree with that too. However, it seems very often that an entirely peaceful protest doesn't grab the headlines and public imagination as much as a bit of aggro.

I mean, would we be discussing things at such length, if there [i]hadn't[/i] bin any trouble? I doubt it.

If you want to bring down a system everyone knows you do it quietly and from within. Not by smashing random shop windows and screaming at random public sector workers.

It seemed pretty clear to me that there were two fairly distinct groups of people, those protesting sensibly and those lobbing bricks. Random passers by such as myself could easily be occupying the same space as either group. Are you telling me that it's acceptable for a heavily pregnant woman to be detained for walking along the street Zulu?

Oh, I'd like to point out to Yossarian that although these thugs might like to think they're attacking the state, when it's represented in the form of human beings those people can end up in hospital. Not nice.

From UK Uncut:

"We weren't just going to march from A to B and be ignored, people are prepared to take civil disobedientt action because they are angry at the unfairness of these cuts. Fortnum & Mason is a symbol of wealth and greed. It is where the Royal Family and the super-rich do their weekly shop and a picnic hamper costs £25,000. This sits in stark contrast to everyone else who is struggling to make ends meet, fill in their tax returns and benefits forms, and face huge student debts, unemployment and the closure or dismatling of their local services that we need and depend on such as the NHS, libraries and leisure centres.

"We are not all in this together - the government, big business such as ABF, banking sector and the wealthy who shop here are in it together and are choosing to make everyone else pay the price for the banks greed and wreckless gambling. The government is making a political choice to turn a blind eye to the tax dodging of big business and reward the banks' mistakes with the bail out and bonuses and instead cut child, housing and disability benefits as well as decimating the Welfare State.

"Civil disobedience has a long tradition of driving forward progressive change and we are here to send a powerful message that we are angry at the government's choice to protect the rich and punish the poorest and most vulnerable people in our society. It's society that's too big to fail, not the broken banking sector. There is an alternative through clamping down on tax avoidance and making the banks pay for their crisis, the government is just choosing to ignore it and that is not fair or right."

[url] http://ukuncut.org.uk/blog/press-release-uk-uncut-occupy-tax-dodgers-fortnum-and-mason [/url]

@CaptainFlashheart - for many it's the speed and targets of the cuts that are the problem. Look at the OBR figures for household debt.

Pre Emergency Budget:

[img] [/img]

Post Emergency Budget:

[img] [/img]

Pre 2011 Budget:

[img] [/img]

From [url] http://sturdyblog.wordpress.com/2011/03/25/the-obr-forecast-nobody-wants-you-to-see/ [/url]

I mean, would we be discussing things at such length, if there hadn't bin any trouble? I doubt it.

Indeed, Elf, but we're not discussing the issue behind the [i]real[/i] demo at all, are we? The only discussion anywhere is about the idiots ruining that genuine demonstration.

Berm Bandit - Member
Refering to the OP: What is morally wrong is anarchists hijacking every flaming protest nowadays which is effectively creating a situation whereby the right to protest for the ordinary man in the street is becoming severely eroded.

Gory makes story

The 'violence' is disproportionately represented in the media because it's more interesting than "250,000 people marched in peaceful solidarity". One example that springs to mind is the massive protest in Ireland against the shootings/attacks on Police stations recently, this was bumped by endless analysis of the German school shooting.

I would be inclined to suggest it was a target because of its traditional user,as was the Ritz

I'm pretty sure that those who targeted the Ritz were quite different to those who targeted F&M.

The Ritz was targeted by the usual temporary revolutionaries who are rebelling against the comfortable middle-class upbringing which mummy and daddy has provided them with, whilst F&M was targeted by UK Uncut.

I have a lot of time for UK Uncut. Their aim is not to trash anything, but to highlight staggering hypocrisy and double standards which are applied whereby those who did not create the crises, are forced to pay for it, whilst those who did, are allowed the get away scot-free.

The poor did not cause the global credit crunch/recession, it was the rich and powerful who did that, and yet they are expected, as usual, to carry the can. UK Uncut has my full support in exposing this nasty government's double-standards.

Well actually this thread was originally about the morality of kettling. It's now moved on to other matters.

This tax avoidance thing;

I know a feller who works for a company his dad set up, which is actually a registered charity. Now, I'm not sure how this all works, but this bloke don't take a salary, he takes out 'loans' from the charity's account, which are indefinite and have no interest payable. Somehow, don't ask me how, this means he doesn't have to pay any income tax whatsoever. None. Yet he enjoys free health care, education for his kids, etc etc.

I enquired, somewhat incredulously, as to how this is possible, or even legal. He responded with 'oh, it's quite common, and loads of people do it'. 😯 completely 'legal', too apparently.

He enjoys several foreign holidays a year, works far less hours than most, and enjoys a comfortable lifestyle. His house is registered as a charity asset, so that has some financial benefits too somehow.

Moral?

Meanwhile, some poor sods fiddling a bit of benefit to eak out their meagre incomes get labelled as scum cheats, fraudsters, and treated as criminals.

Funny old world, in't it?

Yup, entirely legal.

As an American billionaire once famously said, "only the little people pay taxes"

The poor did not cause the global credit crunch/recession, it was the rich and powerful who did that

by lending money to the poor wasnt it, perhaps they should have persevered with the robbing via rent, rather than allowing the poor to default on mortgages.......
then by backing the little man, they gambled themselves into oblivion.

still i blame the banks and the tories, mostly thatcher.

by lending money to the poor wasnt it

Mostly by lending money to poor Americans who were desperate for a home to buy overinflated rubbishy properties, I believe.

I very much doubt that you will find anyone who genuinely doesn't understand and accept the need for a period of austerity and prudence. However, the issue is not about that, its about fairness. The Crisis was not created by the public sector, nor by those who are poorest in our society. I have no doubt they both would expect to take a fair share of the burden, but you are talking about a government that does things like deem it reasonable to bring in a tax avoiding lizard like Phillip Greene to pontificate to the rest of us about biting the bullet. Thats what gets up peoples backs and makes them demonstrate. Not the cuts per se.

In all fairness Ernie, she was Polish not American. 😀

If you want to bring down a system everyone knows you do it quietly and from within.

LOL!