[Closed] Is Kettling Morally Wrong?

Wrong question.

Is kettling [s]morally wrong[/s] effective?

I'm pretty sure thats what I said.

I copied and pasted what you said. Let me do it again :

[i]"So you've got an extremely stretched resource having to deal with serious riot conditions"[/i]

The police were not "extremely stretched". Far from it, they had over 4,500 officers in case they were needed, but the march and the rally passed without incidents - and was stewarded by the TUC. So 4,500 officers to deal with, according to the police, 500 misbehaving protesters. I can't see where you get the "extremely stretched resource" from.

At the time they occurred the Police don't have instant knowledge of scale, scope or outcome, or for that matter who is involved.

I have already shown you the link which proves that the occupation of Trafalgar Square for example (which was were most of the trouble occurred) was pre-planned and was up on the Black Bloc website days before the event. I'll do again for you :

http://www.resist.org.uk/uk/anti-cuts/march-for-the-alternative/

The police were fully aware what to expect and where it expect it. They didn't need to have "instant knowledge".

I'll stick to my ordinal claim that you are clueless about the events on Saturday. Although I'm sure you'll come back and repeat the same ill-informed comments.

.

Using the army in support of the civil power was very common in the 70's and 80's including sending the SAS in to prison riots.

Certainly in the 70s and 80s the British army was one of the experienced in the world, if not the most experienced, in dealing with civil unrest, as a result of their deployment in Northern Ireland where they dealt with everything including policing demonstrations and marches.

Mr Woppit - Member

Wrong question.

Is kettling [s]morally wrong[/s] effective?

Well done Woppit.....you never disappoint.

Of course shooting protesters is extremely effective, if "effective" is what you're looking for, as Tiananmen Square proved. And I'm sure with your morality not a problem.

Kettling however probably isn't quite as effective as some might like to believe. It is designed to prevent disorder from occurring, but often it is responsible for the complete opposite.

There was no kettling on the TUC march on Saturday, and there was no trouble. Had there been any kettling, then I am absolutely certain there would have been trouble.

ernie_lynch

blah blah balh

I thought there was kettling at Traf square? Seemed to work.

Should have been done earlier in Piccadilly, might have prevented the little gang of morons from getting in the way of those who weren't paticularly interested in marching to the park witness Ed "Glottal Stop" Millibrain from comparing himself to MLK, Madeba, jesus christ, etc....

Your assumption that I would link shooting with kettling, or even that there IS a link, merely betrays what a complete plonker you are.

But then, we knew that.

PS: Leave Fred alone, he can't help it (you know what that's like...).

What have I done now? 😯

Berm Bandit - have a look at the clip in the link I posted this morning from the Grauniad - [url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/mar/30/uk-uncut-arrests-protests ]link[/url]

It shows a TSG briefing before the event where the commander is saying that they are going to make Criminal Trespass a priority.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if the top bods were envisaging something different to what transpired, i.e. using that against more militant types than those they ended up arresting.

Your assumption that I would link shooting with kettling, or even that there IS a link, merely betrays what a complete plonker you are.

Well I think your priority of what is effective over what is morally acceptable, reinforces what I already knew about you 😀

... which is as close to zero as makes no difference.

Why would it ever make any difference ? ! 😀

Well I've bin to many demos in me time, and seen kettling employed on peaceful crowds, then witnessed it kicking off as a result. So proof, not that it were needed of course, that kettling isn't actually all that effective in prventing trouble.

See, you've learned something here Woppit. And I won't charge you for it. 🙂

I am overwhelmed by your generosity Fred. 🙂

It's very effective at damping down rioting nitwits, though...

Which is nice.

It's not. As I've just explained.

That's genuine experience of such things, Woppit, not just politically biased accounts in't right-wing press.

It's very effective at damping down rioting nitwits

You have not a clue what kettling is Woppit. It is suppose to be a "preventive measure".

I have been kettled on several occasions, no rioting was taking place. And no arrests were made btw.

crankboy - Member

bravohotel8er where do you get your confidence from? Using the army in support of the civil power was very common in the 70's and 80's including sending the SAS in to prison riots. For the Miner's strike a number of welsh miners came to Yorkshire and found themselves opposite friends and relatives who they had last heard of as being in the army and now found in police uniforms.

Lots of ex-military used to join the police.

Move along son, there's nothing to see here.

"Lots of ex-military used to join the police." yep and during the strike a lot of current military put on police uniforms as an aid to the civil power.

Mr Woppit - Member

Wrong question.

Is kettling effective?

Depends on whether you think it's a way of preventing trouble or a way of provoking it, really.

If it's the former, then it's sometimes effective, but IMO more often not. If it's the latter, then it's highly effective.

Course, that's the subject of a Heated Debate- personally I have no idea whether what I've seen were cases of a kettle used badly, and the violence was an unintended consequence, or whether that was the intention. I'm inclined to think it's generally the former, but I'm sure plenty of people would say the opposite. (I tend to go by Heinlein's Razor)

crankboy - Member
yep and during the strike a lot of current military put on police uniforms as an aid to the civil power.

No they didn't, you ridiculous nutter.

you ridiculous nutter.

You pride yourself on being a more sensible kind of nutter ?

More a nutter in denial, I'd say...

If they had not waited until Traf Square to use it, it would have saved a lot of people a lot of scrubbing work on the Sunday in Piccaddilly.

Would have been able to get a decent high tea at Fortnums too...

Mr Woppit - Member
Would have been able to get a decent high tea at Fortnums too...

Doubtless elfin and ernie will be along in a minute to remind you that 'proper tea is theft'.

Wouldn't that be a tad predictable? 🙂

bravohotel8er ta for the character assessment. what do you base your denial upon? The army have been deployed to back up or replace the fire brigade the prison service and mountain rescue why do you think it would be mad or indeed a conspiracy to believe they were deployed during the miners strike?

I base my view on a reasonably well researched book and the experiences of people who were involved on both sides.

bravohotel8er ta for the character assessment. what do you base your denial upon?

I've seen this sort of reasoned and level headed debating tactic from the brave hotelier before..
I reckon he's picked up a bit of shrapnel in WWII..

Doubtless elfin and ernie will be along in a minute to remind you that 'proper tea is theft'.

There's no need to cane a perfectly good joke.

Try to increase your repertoire 💡

ernie_lynch - Member

Doubtless elfin and ernie will be along in a minute to remind you that 'proper tea is theft'.

There's no need to cane a perfectly good joke.

Try to increase your repertoire

Sorry darjeeling.

TAXI!

OK that's better. I quite like that.......you've redeemed yourself slightly.

That just about takes the biscuit.

Mr Woppit - Member
That just about takes the biscuit.

I've had just about enough of your lipton.

*rings for another taxi*

Oh how typical that you two should be hobnobbing 😐

[URL= http://www.ukuncut.org.uk/blog/unions-and-campaign-groups-voice-support-for-uk-uncut ]Unions and campaign groups voice support for UK Uncut[/url]

However, in taking the type of peaceful action which UK Uncut routinely undertake on Saturday, targeting Fortnum and Mason on this occasion, they were treated in a political and deceptive manner by the police which sends an ominous message about the right to protest.

It would appear activists were misled by the police about not being arrested when asked to leave the Fortnum and Mason building, after which they were held for a significant length of time, their clothing was confiscated and they have been denied the right to protest in the near future.

This situation has now been seized on by the media and politicians to further threaten the right to protest. UK Uncut activists have been blamed for damage they did not cause and this story has become a substitute for discussion of the real issues raised by UK Uncut and the TUC march in general.

This does not represent a consistent approach to policing legitimate protest. Neither does it represent the sort of consistent approach to freedom of protest which the Government led us to believe they supported on entering office. We support the right to protest for a fairer and more equal world. As part of this, we condemn any politically motivated policing which provokes, intimidates or criminalises protestors. We will continue to support UK Uncut, alongside thousands of others, until tax justice is secured so the poorest do not have to pay the price of a financial crisis caused by the richest.

they were treated in a political and deceptive manner by the police which sends an ominous message about the right to protest.

.......claim the guys who used deceit to hijack a legitimate and lawful protest to make a political point which was ...... ????

However, in taking the type of peaceful action which UK Uncut routinely undertake

Peaceful action should not involve damaging property, surely?

claim the guys who used deceit to hijack a legitimate and lawful protest to make a political point which was ...... ????

You're not very good at noticing detail are you Berm Bandit ?

The link is titled "Unions and campaign groups voice support for UK Uncut"

[i]"This is a letter from a number of NGOs and unions in support of UK Uncut".[/i]

UK Uncut has not "hijacked" anything. They have the full support of the unions which organised the march on Saturday. They are an important part of the struggle against the politically and ideologically motivated cuts. Their role is to carry the message by exposing the government's double standard, something which they do in an entertaining and light-hearted manner.

Peaceful action should not involve damaging property, surely?

No property was damaged by UK Uncut, a fact which the police don't dispute and readily agree with. Try to pay attention Flash.

crankboy - Member

why do you think it would be mad or indeed a conspiracy to believe they were deployed during the miners strike?

Because believing in things that didn't happen is generally (religion excepted) considered mad. It's not like there wasn't enough genuine madness during the miner's strike without having to make up more.

Because believing in things that didn't happen is generally (religion excepted) considered mad.

How do you know that this din't happen?

Were you there?

Nothing din't happen as there's no such thing as, din't happen

Elfinsafety - Member

Were you there?

Nope. And?

Reasons people think it happened:
"My mate's brother's son in law saw some coppers that looked a bit like soldiers"
Er, and that's it. You'll not find a single copper who says it happened, not a single squaddie, and damn few miners- and not one of them's got anything more convincing than that. It's a very weak urban myth.

You don't actually know it's [i]not[/i] true though, do you?

You just don't like to contemplate the fact that it's perfectly possible such things might actually have happened.

If the army/navy/airforce had supplemented the police, a system known as Military Aid to Civil Authorities (MACA), they will not have worn the uniforms. Military rank is not directly transferable to any of the military services and there are numerous rules surrounding what things military people can do which may differ to civilian counterparts in the same circumstances.

You don't actually know it's not true though, do you?

It's not true Elfie.

What is true though, is that the NUM was infiltrated by MI5. But that's a different story.

How d'you know it's not true?

There are several accounts of unidentified bods in police lines.

It is Maggie we're talking about after all. You wouldn't put it past her to use whatever means she could get away with, to serve her own ends?

How d'you know it's not true?

Well how do I know that there weren't any extraterrestrial people from a planet which circles Alpha Centauri, amongst the coppers on duty during the miner strike ?

I don't.

OK there might have been.

Extraterrestrials from a planet which orbits Alpha Centauri that is.

There was definitely no squaddies.

Elfinsafety - Member

You just don't like to contemplate the fact that it's perfectly possible such things might actually have happened.

Not being a credulous fool, when presented with something that seems unlikely I expect to get at least a single shred of credible evidence before I give it the slightest bit of brain time.

The police and army have some of the most efficient rumour mills in the western world, what are the odds that not one of them would have confirmed the story if it were true? In fact, it's surprising that no ex-coppers or ex-squaddied have backed the story even assuming it's not true.

the more i read this , the more i think some people have been replaced by weird aliens. just to post on here.

I don't think there was ever any doubt that it would eventually be ruled as unlawful by a court,
it's just surprising that it took so long :

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/court-finds-police-kettling-was-unlawful-2268084.html ]Court finds police kettling was unlawful[/url]

I guess the Met will have to use other [i]lawful[/i] tactics now.

can someone condense this into a nice little paragraph. or a flow chart.

if it happened in Libya we would send in the planes

can someone condense this into a nice little paragraph. or a flow chart.

Once apon a time some nasty, dirty and smelly people were shouting. Good queen bess and her prime minister told the brave police it would be fine to hit the smelly people until they ran away or shut up. But the brave police got over-excited and hit everybody instead.

Surprised it has taken so long to come on here seeing as judgement was yesterday afternoon.

The use of kettling in 'this' situation has been deemed unlawful (the type and conduct of the crowd was key). It is not a judgement in relation to the general use of kettling as a tactic by the police.

It has also been appealed.

The use of kettling in 'this' situation has been deemed unlawful

Which is the only situation I have ever experienced kettling. Kettling has been consistently used by the Met as a tactic of first resort against peaceful protesters, despite their spokesman's completely misleading comment : "Where necessary, we will continue to use containment as a last resort to prevent serious disorder and violence."

Kettling as a tactic used by the Met, has been deemed unlawful by a court.

Kettling is such a waste of both police and crusties time anyway.It must be very hot for the nice policemen in that riot gear and it must be hard to be contained for hours next to somebody who has rejected soap as a plot by global drugs companies to make more money.Kettling is also an affection of the South.It will just have to be replaced by the Northern/Scottish eq. "Mass baton charge with horses."