[Closed] Is it racist...

The only thing I get from this is that it must be a geographical thing.

I grew up in pretty mixed area of North Manchester and
Corner Shop and Chinese were used by pretty much everyone.
**** and Chink were still used, but only as terms of abuse and not in that context.

In Tod, pretty much everyone knew the shops and the owners by name.
Pretty much the only place I heard either term was in the Duke Of York, which seemed to be the pub of choice for the meatheads.

It does sound like there's quite a demand.

Tell you what, let's set up a restaurant in Hackney called "Coon Chicken Inn" and see how people react, hey?

HEAR ME NOW!

As delicious as chicken is, there are it seems lots of alternatives which do not involve eating the flesh.

He does seem fit for a more elderly gent.

Tom_W1987 - Member

Tell you what, let's set up a restaurant in Hackney called "Coon Chicken Inn" and see how people react, hey?

Too late brother Tom, see above post for my new lifestyle choice.

Now I'm left with my main vice to conquer:

That's actually going the opposite way though isn't it Rich, I mean you're using their language to describe where you are going

My point was actually that a Polski Sklep is a shop full of polish items, not the same thing as your **** shop at all. In Poland, It'd just be a Sklep 😉 According to the ex they're often run by other eastern europeans - good business opportunity.

you're using their language to describe where you are going - instead of a British derived term of *cough*...."endearment"

Ah so it's okay if we use their language to describe the shop?

So we should call it a
P?kisat?n? Duk?na (or a ????????? ????? ) then?
And that'll make them feel less like outsiders?

But what if it turns out they speak Pashto not Punjabi? Won't my presumption be just as insulting? 😉

My American wife reacted much as I would if someone casually used the term ****. Apparently Jap has the same negative racist connotations for the Yanks.

You don't say.

I was quite surprised actually. I've only every used Jap when describing machinery from Japan, purely as an abbreviation of Japanese. Never considered it a racist term and wouldn't use it to describe someone from Japan. We don't have quite the same history with the Japanese as the Americans do though.

NSFW, fpmsl @ " You cant taste rascism

Can we take back "Porch Monkey" yet?

Are you having one of your angry days again Tom_W ?

I was quite surprised actually.

I certainly remember it being used an offensive term when I was a kid, often by ex POWs from WWII especialy.

Wow, racists can be really obtuse when they want to excuse their behaviour.

So we should call it a
P?kisat?n? Duk?na (or a ????????? ????? ) then?

Does it sell mostly ????????? stuff?

Ah so it's okay if we use their language to describe the shop?

So we should call it a
P?kisat?n? Duk?na (or a ????????? ????? ) then?
And that'll make them feel less like outsiders?

But what if it turns out they speak Pashto not Punjabi? Won't my presumption be just as insulting?

As the poster above you pointed out, how many of your "**** shops" actually sell only ****stani produce?

None of them, or very few. So your argument generally falls down, you're having to weave too many excuses to defend the point that it is not racist shorthand.

Occams razor...it's racist. Simples.

Wow, racists can be really obtuse when they want to excuse their behaviour.

Like Ebike haterz?

perchypanther - Member
..... does anyone know a really offensive term that could be applied to Hungarians.

Calling them Budapests just wasn't cutting the mustard.

The Poorly Hung?

My apologies, I've not waded through 8 pages so it might have been done, but I thought this kind of relevant:

http://southendnewsnetwork.com/news/man-threatens-legal-action-over-racist-sign-at-suffolk-hospital/

When I got into inspection work my manager initially showed me three components and asked me which ones were bad.

First one was spot on in every way to the drawing. Not bad.

Second one had a bore too deep, breaking into a cross hole. Bad.

Third one had a c'bore that was off centre to the bore, not too much but out of tolerance.

"Is that one bad sbob?"

"I'm not sure. It loo..."
<SMACK>
"If that component is critical, there is no third option. It is bad"

Wise words that served me well.

Being racist is VERY bad.
If there is a doubt (and the very presence of the OP suggest there is)
then don't risk it.

Nothing else needs to be said, yet a forum populated by people that think they are more intelligent than most have spread it over eight pages.

This thread is like the intellectual butter in a British Rail sandwich.

Now leave it.
There is nothing more to add.
Otherwise I shall continue to spam the thread with the wisdom of Macka B (provided Tom is still here to help, sorry mate).

Wow, racists can be really obtuse when they want to excuse their behaviour.

This.

Just so easy to find different words, and to reframe the way we think about people. It's not about neurotic lefty posturing, it's about being polite and getting on with people.

you're having to weave too many excuses to defend the point that it is not racist shorthand.

Nah I'm just trying to challenge your illiberal prejudice a little bit.

Occams razor...it's racist. Simples.

Hanlon's Razor: it isn't. Simples.

Incidentally, any issue with "Oriental"?
Apparently it is so offensive that the [s]Yanks[/s] Americans [url= http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-tsuchiyama-oriental-insult-20160601-snap-story.html ]made it illegal to use in official documents[/url].

Someone should probably tell the Oriental population round here because it is pretty common to see it used in restaurant names.

aracer - Member

My apologies, I've not waded through 8 pages so it might have been done, but I thought this kind of relevant:

http://southendnewsnetwork.com/news/man-threatens-legal-action-over-racist-sign-at-suffolk-hospital/

That's not relevant it's ****ing retarded.

let's set up a restaurant in Hackney called "Coon Chicken Inn" and see how people react

Random aside, in field archery a night-time shoot is (or at least, was in the 80s when I last shot) known as a "coon shoot." This generated an amount of outrage in some quarters but the source of the term is raccoon hunting. (The racial usage of 'coon' comes from something to with racial slums in Spain or some such, I forget exactly, but it's nothing to do with raccoons or darkness.)

That's not relevant it's **** retarded.

Offensive to the mentally disabled.

All we need to remember is that we all share one common love,

accept that and we can all get along.

Otherwise I shall continue to spam the thread with the wisdom of Macka B

As far as I could gather (and I fully admit I'm not good at Patois, if indeed that's what it was) the main thrust of Mr B's lyrical treatise there was that words are all about context and interpretation. Anything can be made to sound rude, even when you're just singing about the client produce handling preferences of the girl running the vegetable stall at the street market.

One of my clients at the moment is a distraught Mexican domestic cleaner who works for a London company that has just changed its name to ‘Spick and Span Cleaning’

😆

Incidentally, any issue with "Oriental"?
Apparently it is so offensive that the Yanks Americans made it illegal to use in official documents.

Someone should probably tell the Oriental population round here because it is pretty common to see it used in restaurant names.

Well, it's a very generic term, only meaning From the East. And it's used here to mean much the same as Asian in.the US. It's a compromise term.whichbi don't particularly like, same as Asian, which doesnt really say what it means. Asian is only.applied to a subset of Asians and Oriental to subset of people from the east
A way of covering up.the fact.that you don't know where people are from but look a bit like these other people who are from out that way. The fact that 'orientals' round your way use it reflects perhaps that some people have given up.trying to educate the local population about the differences and instead just accepted the terminology of the locals

It appears that STW [i]is[/i] loving the Macka B after all!

Now this is one of my favourite Macka B tracks. Not only because it was my first introduction to his wisdom and music, but in lieu of his later lifestyle choices it is not only a song about the importance of a good diet, but is also a shining example to us all that we [i]can[/i] change.

Macka B sure has come a long way since eating saltfish, selling hooky wris****ches and swimming around in oceans of baked beans.

<mod>
Enough now. I'm sure people can Google for more if they want.
</mod>

Cougar, would you have a go at justifying the 'obvious' choices of banned words as above?

Ok, as long as we can accept that continuing to post in this thread is a damning embarrassment to the forum.

Did you read the linked article Charlie?

As an Oriental, I am bemused. Apparently Asians are supposed to feel demeaned if someone refers to us as Orientals. But good luck finding a single Asian American who has ever had the word spat at them in anger. Most Asian Americans have had racist epithets hurled at them at one time or another: Chink, slant eye, gook, Nip, zipperhead. But Oriental isn’t in the canon.

And why should it be? Literally, it means of the Orient or of the East, as opposed to of the Occident or of the West. Last I checked, geographic origin is not a slur. If it were, it would be wrong to label people from Mississippi as Southerners...

Incidentally I don't think I'd have any issue with anyone from Asia referring to me as Western or European, or even Occidental. Bit general as you say, but I accept that I look a bit like these other people who are from out that way so fair enough.

Like Ebike haterz?

& the usual Orange 5 haterz? I get more peeved by the Orange thing than being called a white Honky.

Another crazy thread on STW.

I'm a specky 4 eyed fat short arse. Big whoopy wow. If your'e slagging me off then your'e leaving someone else alone who can't take it.

You can call me anything, just don't call me late for dinner. 😆

No, didn't read it. But lots have terms have different meaning in US and UK. The main issue is that it is a bit of a lazy categorisation.

the usual Orange 5 haterz? I get more peeved by the Orange thing than being called a white Honky.

Another crazy thread on STW.

You can call me anything, just don't call me late for dinner.

Typical ignorant, racist apologist with his head in the sand. Honky does not have the same power history as many other racist terms

Typical ignorant, racist apologist with his head in the sand. Honky does not have the same power history as many other racist terma

One thing I'm not doing is apologising. Really.

Look, it's really simple; it's not racist if the intent isn't so. It may be perceived as such by your audience. I could easily ask "fancy a chinky" or "fancy a ruby" in my mates company without any racism implied or perceived. They're not the same but, because the slang isn't racially tinged (in that company) it's the same question In terms of its meaning.

There are things you wouldn't say at work, jokes you wouldn't tell because, regardless of the intent, it "may cause offence". Same thing here. The audience matters because it's not necessarily the intent, it's the perception.

No, I don't have any friends of Chinese decent. I wouldnt call them a chink/chinky if I did. Unless I checked first if it'd be offensive to them. Even so, I'd probably just use their name.......

The main issue is that it is a bit of a lazy categorisation.

Well, according to TripAdvisor the 5th best Chinese restaurant in Newcastle is Landmark Oriental: http://www.landmarkoriental.co.uk/

Good effort given that there is a reasonable-sized mini-Chinatown in the city centre.

But I'm sure the owners would be interested to know they are lazy and have given up trying to educate the Geordies.

themilo - Member

Look, it's really simple; it's not racist if the intent isn't so.

It's about intent. The c-word can be a deeply insulting term and yet I often use as a term of endearment, as in "come here you little ****". And if I refer to someone as "a right clever ****" it's not in any way intended to be a slur.

Racists, racist apologists and the plain ignorant use these words.
If you don't want to belong to one of these categories, don't use the words.

Why would you possibly argue the point? Why are you so desperate to hang onto these outdated terminologies?

But I'm sure the owners would be interested to know they are lazy and have given up trying to educate the Geordies.

Well, you've at least demonstrated why they might.

Cougar, would you have a go at justifying the 'obvious' choices of banned words as above?

I've tried to explain several times now as I understand it and you're (probably wilfully) not getting it.

I won't - and indeed, I can't - "justify" anything as I don't make the rules and have no control over the blacklist. If you want justification or object to the policy then you need to take that up with the site owners. Though if it were down to me I wouldn't change much as it seems to work well.

My take is that profanity is blocked in order to keep the site vaguely respectable / family friendly, but that does not extend to censorship of views and discussion (and IMHO rightly so). A free-for-all on swearing would give a very different 'feel' to the forum; would you want your 14-year old daughter to sign up to Mumsnet?

Directly offensive comments (eg, calling someone a chink as opposed to debating whether referring to a "chinky" take-away is racist or not) is similarly forbidden. Would we gain anything by adding "chink" to the swear filter? I doubt it, we'd just repeatedly hit the S****horpe problem.

I could be totally wrong here but it's the best I've got.

It's about intent.

Why do people keep saying this? The intent might tell you whether or not the individual is racist, but that is not what we are talking about here. It is the terminology which is racist

Cougar, it is not wilfully not getting it. What I don't get is that swear words are not allowed, yet deeply offensive racist terms are. If profanity is blocked, because it is offensive, then why isn't a term like ****, blocked, it is probably more offensive. It could even be deemed profane. You ask about my 14 year old daughter? Well, I'm pretty sure I would rather she was protected from offensive racist terms than from swearing.

One thing I'm not doing is apologising. Really

Doesn't matter, you are still a racist apologist. Get your head out of the sand

Charlie - respectfully I disagree to some extent. words cannot be racist - its the context in which they are used that makes them so ie for black urban americans they call each other "****". thats not racist. However if I said it to a black Briton then it would be

[quote=CharlieMungus ]If profanity is blocked, because it is offensive, then why isn't a term like ****, blocked, it is probably more offensive.

I may be about to be corrected, but that doesn't seem an unreasonable one to block, given that I can't think of any non offensive use of the word (apart from by those who have reclaimed it, but let's not go there any more than we have to). The trouble is you're going to end up having to be selective, because to come back to where this thread started would we not be allowed to discuss a chink of light, or to do Top Gear could we not discuss steep slopes?

[quote=tjagain ]Charlie - respectfully I disagree to some extent. words cannot be racist - its the context in which they are used that makes them so ie for black urban americans they call each other "****". thats not racist.

Just for a change I'm with Charlie on this one - unless I've missed it, there aren't many black urban Americans on this forum using that as a term of affection for each other, so nothing would be lost here by banning it. I can't think of a context to use it [b]on this forum[/b] which isn't racist apart from discussing whether it's racist 😈

But it is a racist term, albeit in some cases used as a familiar.

FeeFoo - Member

Racists, racist apologists and the plain ignorant use these words.
If you don't want to belong to one of these categories, don't use the words.

Why would you possibly argue the point? Why are you so desperate to hang onto these outdated terminologies?

Indeed. I'm so terrified of being called a racist that I'm no longer comfortable using the term "black person", it is after all outdated, coming as it does from the 1970s.

I think the term "melanistic person" might be more appropriate, if God forbid, you are required to to refer to the colour of someone's skin - I prefer to pretend that I haven't noticed.

Its not the intent - its the context.

I am sensitive to discrimination and have fought against it for a long long time but some of your comments here are way over the top calling people racist apologists

No harm in being selective, after all Balls is allowed but **** isn't.

We can't talk about a chink of light, as we often do. But currently we can't talk about how I'd like to **** someone for talking like a ****

quite right aracer - there is no context on this forum for **** not to be racist bar as yo say discussions around the use of words. I was merely using it as an example of a word where the context alters its offensiveness greatly

How about where it's a resident of a town in Scotland... No wait, I know where this one ends

way over the top calling people racist apologists

Well, if it is intent, then you should know that he does not mind this at all. In fact he invites it

LOL@ Northwind

Well, you've at least demonstrated why they might.

Maybe I have.

I'm quite happy to admit that until recently I had no idea that "Oriental" was offensive.

Though in my defence, I've grown up seeing it on restaurant signs.

> It's about intent.
Why do people keep saying this? The intent might tell you whether or not the individual is racist, but that is not what we are talking about here. It is the terminology which is racist

Because "terminology" is words - and the meaning of words change with intent.

(and FWIW, I agree that n****** should be in the swear filter here)

we'd just repeatedly hit the S****horpe problem.

*s**** s*****

YOU can be racist without intent. I see this often. Old folk I work with who use racist stereotyping and terms without meaning it in any derogatory way at all. they don't realise they are being racist and they don't mean to be so but they are - just horrendously outdated ideas and language

I'm quite happy to admit that until recently I had no idea that "Oriental" was offensive.

Though in my defence, I've grown up seeing it on restaurant signs.

But you understand that it is not a word which, say Chinese people would naturally choose to define themselves.

[quote=CharlieMungus ]But currently we can't talk about how I'd like to **** someone for talking like a ****

Hmm - do I get in trouble for swear filter evasion by quoting somebody?

The thing is, that use of the word there is only non-offensive (if it is?) through re-use in a context where an offensive word is required. You ****ed up a bit there, to coin another non-offensive use of a swear filter word - the thing is there are plenty of alternatives which work fine and those words don't have a non-offensive meaning which isn't derived from the offensive one. So non-equivalent.

[quote=CharlieMungus ]But you understand that it is not a word which, say Chinese people would naturally choose to define themselves.

I may have missed it already being done, but I presume we're about to head off in the same direction as the "pigeon loft thread" here? It was kind of laughed about on the bits of the thread I have read, but is any term which alludes to the colour of somebody's skin in any way (as we've done further up this page) similarly unacceptable?

But there are also alternatives.to a chink of light, does it matter how they are derived? after all,the filter allows Berk.

[quote=CharlieMungus ]But there are also alternatives.to a chink of light

Sure, but in that context chink is totally non-offensive and never has been offensive, so still non-equivalent. Find me a totally innocent use of some word that's in the swear filter and we can try again (your example isn't - as I wrote, the whole context of the use relies upon the offensive nature of the word).

I've not said Oriental is unacceptable or offensive, it just a little superficial.
I think it's fine to refer to the colour of a person's skin, so long it is done with awareness of what is appropriate, yes language changes and want was previously acceptable is now not, so, coloured people and people of colour will come and go as the baggage they carry changes. But it's not so hard to keep up to date and if you use the wrong term and someone points it out, be graceful about it. Especially if it is someone who might be better placed to know. Don't try defend a position just because you have always held it, change your terminology and change it again and again, it moved us away from all those horrible terms which were acceptable in the seventies and earlier, used by the victims of it too, that didn't mean the terms were okay

But you understand that it is not a word which, say Chinese people would naturally choose to define themselves.

According to you.

I'd suggest that if someone doesn't want their food to be described as oriental then they should probably avoid putting "oriental" in the name of their restaurant.

So no, it hadn't really occurred to me that the person running the local "Oriental Garden" might take offence at it being described as an oriental restaurant. What about the "Chinese Lantern"? Am I okay to describe that as serving Chinese food or should I just say "food"?! Not all of the food they sell is particularly Chinese - especially the chips with curry sauce 😆

(Disappointed no one has posted the "Going out for an English" sketch yet)

Aracer,.point is that our discussions would be no poorer for the loss of the word chink.

I don't think equivalence matters

But now I have to find a word which meets your criteria!

is any term which alludes to the colour of somebody's skin in any way (as we've done further up this page) similarly unacceptable?

All adjectives can be used to insult and divide.

Therefore all adjectives are bad.

CharlieMungus » But there are also alternatives.to a chink of light

And we could call a spade a "bladed digging implement". 🙄

[quote=CharlieMungus ]if you use the wrong term and someone points it out, be graceful about it. Especially if it is someone who might be better placed to know. Don't try defend a position just because you have always held it

In other words, Wheaton's Law. Though in a similar way, I'm not sure why it's necessary to continue to argue about the [s]unacceptable[/s] [s]offensive[/s] superficial nature of a word just because you've always held that view...

[quote=CharlieMungus ]Aracer,.point is that our discussions would be no poorer for the loss of the word chink.

Well I'll add another bit of work for you then - give me a phrase which means exactly the same as a chink of light with the same neatness. It might not be that widely a used phrase, but when it fits the context...

The thing is, there is no similar debate to be had over any of the words which are in the filter (unless and until you successfully complete your homework).

I'd suggest that if someone doesn't want their food to be described as oriental then they should probably avoid putting "oriental" in the name of their restaurant.

But then you wouldn't know what food they serve.
But actually you might reasonably expect food the middle east, from russia or Skegness. They are able East. India is in the East, would you use the term Oriental.to describe someone from India?

give me a phrase which means exactly the same as a chink of light with the same neatness.

Ooh good game! Ok, but you give me a phrase which means exactly the same as so, "I wanted to **** him" with the same neatness.

Nope. Not playing that game, because I've already explained why your swear word used in that way is still a swear word, so non-equivalent. You can't use my argument to defend that.

edit: as I pointed out at the bottom of that post - sorry, I'm not quite sure, but was it an edit after you posted?

A ray of light
A thin beam of light

No, **** in the sense of hit is not a swear word

Glimmer of light? Offensive to glims?

"This ruling represents a ray of light in an otherwise bleak outlook"
nope
"This ruling represents a thin beam of light in an otherwise bleak outlook"
nope

CharlieMungus - Member

...............
A thin beam of light

Fattist!

A ray of light
A thin beam of light

This thread is starting to read like the transcript of a Monty Python sketch.

[quote=CharlieMungus ]No, **** in the sense of hit is not a swear word

Thanks:
"I wanted to hit him" 😉

Though it's still derived from the use as a swear word in that context, whilst chink of light has completely different roots to any offensive use.

"This ruling represents a ray of light in an otherwise bleak outlook"

Oh in the metaphorical sense!

A glimmer of hope

"I wanted to hit him"

Not even close

Well I must be completely misunderstanding your use then - does it not involve any form of violence?