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To be honest, I think it's pretty much alright here compared with many other parts of the internet.
I actually think the main problem is, as well as all the shite that's going on at the moment and the future not looking terribly hopeful if things continue as they are, internet forums are a narcissist's dream.
I think all human being are narcissists just to a lesser or greater degree. But forums attract people looking for supply and who can't get it elsewhere, those who just have to be heard, those with an elevated sense of their own self importance, those who have to be right and so on. They're also the ideal place for those who are unable to listen to anyone else.
Personally, I don't think that this place would be better by people lightening up but it might be better if people started to listen to others a bit more. Me included.
I stay away from most threads now, certain subjects and a few posters.
Feel very sad that hardly any women post much. Comments about lightening up and not taking things so seriously, or don't be so sensitive, doesn't help.
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To be fair, you're on the back foot demographically to start with as the make-up of STW (and MTB generally) is something of a sausage fest.
But yes, I wholeheartedly agree. We could really do with a bit more diversity in posts beyond the usual vociferous opinions of white middle-aged heterosexual men with delusions of adequacy. It saddens me that you don't feel comfortable in posting more.
I'd go further with your final observation there. It's (arguably) fine when someone directs those comments at oneself, but levelling it at others is part of the problem. It's easy to treat someone like shit and then cry "you just need a thicker skin!" but, radical idea, how about we don't put people into situations where that may be a requirement in the first place? See also, "what's wrong with you / man up / it's just 'banter' / it's not 'real life' / typical [insert demographic here] / you're too sensitive" and a dozen other pseudo-excuses for what is essentially bullying. They've made someone feel bad and then rather than recognising this and apologising they're doubling down with "well, it's your own fault, you shouldn't be so soft."
To my chagrin I probably haven't always been in a position to take the moral high ground here either. But I do try.
then rather than recognising this
I’ll add that people assume personality or writing style onto this. I’ll likely be vilified on a thread where I’m asking decision making advice, whereas Esselgrunt can post one and it’s deal with humour and usefulness, Weeksy’s are dealt with a couple pages of reasonable technical suggestions before taking off into derision.
I’ll add that people assume personality or writing style onto this
Without knowing someone in real life this is a really difficult situation. Take wealth as an example from a recent thread. It's difficult for a number of reasons - one is the traditional British requirement to be humble about it; but it's also a pretty hot topic for a lot of people who may be struggling. In real life, you know your social group, and chances are they are going to be close to your socio-economic status. If not, this will necessarily have been dealt with tactfully and with consideration, otherwise they wouldn't be socialising with you in the first place.
On here though you could start a thread about which £5k bike or which £50k EV to get and that'll read by people you don't know who might be struggling to heat a house. If you were around a pub table with someone you knew was struggling you wouldn't even bring up which expensive bike is best. And yet, it's a bike forum so where else do you discuss it?
So when you (generally, not you Kryton) do bring it up those people can't help but label you internally as a rich dick, and that colours all future interactions.
Honestly a lot of people here need to lighten up a bit.
I think much of the cause of angst can be put down to interpretation of what you've (the general you, not you in particular) written. We've all of us written things that in our heads sounds like a joke or is meant to be taken as a joke, but none of us has any inkling of how our words will be interpreted by another reader, and suggesting that folks "lighten up" is the wrong end of the problem for me. It's the responsibility of the writer to be clear, not for the reader to try to infer the meaning
I think it probably should read "Honestly, a lot of people here need to write more carefully"
We’ve all of us written things that in our heads sounds like a joke or is meant to be taken as a joke, but none of us has any inkling of how our words will be interpreted by another reader, and suggesting that folks “lighten up” is the wrong end of the problem for me. It’s the responsibility of the writer to be clear, not for the reader to try to infer the meaning
I think it probably should read “Honestly, a lot of people here need to write more carefully”
Thats me. I tend to deal with folk on here the same as I do in person but, lacking other cues, it can come across wrongly.
As someone elsewhere in the internet said......
'Definition of Futility - Arguing with someone on the internet'
and
'If the Internet were a place, it would be a mental hospital full of narcissists all shouting at the top of their voices seeking attention'
Do not feed the Trolls...
It's not trolling though. Trolling is a specific thing, in which people deliberately go on the wind-up. There are, fortunately, very few trolls on STW.
This is about genuine people, and how they conduct themselves online. Most people here are not actively trying to piss off the other participants in the debate, so a degree of reflection is useful.
I do wonder, though, how the people who say 'I don't really realise how I come across online' manage in an office environment?!
I’ll add that people assume personality or writing style onto this.
Perhaps you need more smileys? 😁
Thats me. I tend to deal with folk on here the same as I do in person but, lacking other cues, it can come across wrongly.
I've said this before but it's something I'm trying to be a bit more open and introspective about. I assume that everyone I interact with "knows" me. It can (and does) blow up in my face when I say something as a throwaway comment or what at least in my head is sarcasm for humorous purposes and it gets taken too seriously.
As nick said,
It’s the responsibility of the writer to be clear, not for the reader to try to infer the meaning
I wholly agree, but I think we'd all be a lot better off if both reader and writer cut each other a little slack.
Cougar - '...delusions of adequacy' - love it!
I think it probably should read “Honestly, a lot of people here need to write more carefully”
Ok I see where this is going. My question is do we want this place to be a sanitised, completely inoffensive place like a workplace where we all have to conform to a contrived standard of communication and behaviour? Or should we be allowed to be ourselves - or even not ourselves - at the risk of causing offence to people who have a lower bar for these things? If the former then I'm out. I've no interest in this place turning into a new linkedin with all it's fake positivity, enthusiasm and disingenuity.
Maybe it's just me, but I like the disagreements, the bunfights, the pedantry, pettyness and all the other things that others seem to find so offensive. There should be a basic respect of course, and I draw the line at personal abuse or bullying, but that's it. Quite frankly the endless and pedantic arguments I have with the likes of Kelvin and Binners make an otherwise boring day a little less so. If people don't like them, then don't read them!
I do wonder, though, how the people who say ‘I don’t really realise how I come across online’ manage in an office environment?!
Speaking as someone with autism, I don't manage that well in office environment. The last two years working at home was great for me!
I am not that bad in the office but I am very direct and not really good at picking up emotions which is similar to online really.
I learned the hard way just how different interpretations of the same phrase can lead to trouble.
A customer texted me listing 2 or 3 snags on some wardrobes I was in the process of building for her. Because I was due to finish the next day and I wanted to make sure that was a complete list so I could take the necessary tools and materials to fix the snags I texted back "Is that all?"
She interpreted that in a completely different way, thinking I was implying they were insignificant issues, and therefore she was just being picky (not what I meant at all) and it blew up rather badly.
Maybe it’s just me, but I like the disagreements, the bunfights, the pedantry, pettyness and all the other things that others seem to find so offensive.
That's you libdems all over
If the former then I’m out.
If you need Wheaton's Law explaining then that's probably no bad thing. (-:
In honesty I'm kind of with you here. An echo chamber does no-one any favours and I enjoy combative debate as much as the next tandem rider or pastie eater. But ultimately, can we not do that and still be kind?
I guess it's kinda "what happens on tour stays on tour"? You and I have butted heads many times on political threads but I wouldn't think twice about say meeting for a pint or helping you out with a computer problem or something. Sometimes arguments spill out across threads and I find that a bit worrying. Someone here once accused me of a personal vendetta and it pulled me up sharp because I had no recollection of seeing their username before. (And with no trace of irony, can't remember now who it was.) But to actively have that sort of falling-out... feels unhealthy to me.
You and I have butted heads many times on political threads but I wouldn’t think twice about say meeting for a pint
And neither would I. In actual fact most of the people I argue with I know IRL anyway. Everyone seems to understand that what we say here is neither real or important. In fact binners and myself have a rule where this place is the *only* place we're allowed to talk about politics (we nearly broke it last time we were in the pub though), because IRL it would be really boring as we furiously agree with each other on almost everything.
In fact binners and myself have a rule where this place is the *only* place we’re allowed to talk about politics
Is there any way the pair of you could be persuaded to reverse that rule?
Or should we be allowed to be ourselves – or even not ourselves – at the risk of causing offence to people who have a lower bar for these things? If the former then I’m out. I’ve no interest in this place turning into a new linkedin with all it’s fake positivity, enthusiasm and disingenuity.
We're not asking for fake anything, least of all what you describe. You can be yourself, just be a bit tactful about it. You have to factor in that we're not face-to-face, otherwise no-one will ever interpret your words the way you intended. This is surely a pre-requisite for effective communication?
“Is that all?”
A great example. A phrase that has completely different meanings depending on the tone of voice used. The problem could have been easily avoided by saying something like "ok understood - is there anything else I need to look at? I want to make sure I've got all the tools I need."
These extra words are needed if you want to get the response you want, because there's no tone of voice or facial expression to give context and meta-information. And yes, I do take great care over this at work, especially now my conversations are nearly all online.
Is there any way the pair of you could be persuaded to reverse that rule?
heheheheheheheh