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I'm reasonably familiar with the symptoms, from an external point of view, just not the symptoms.
When my wife is depressed, she will argue that there's no point in doing any of it.
except that exercise won't have the side effects
Not everyone gets any side effects at all. Think you misunderstood what I said about exercise - not daily, the benefit was only during. Unless she went the full Forrest it wouldn't help for the rest of the day. Now she's in a position to act positively and perhaps the meds will not be necessary, but correcting something that's been there since your early teens is not an easy fix, and in this case meds are helping if not actually fixing.
If it's as easy as exercise, explain the professional sports people with issues?
Again, there are multiple tools - work out what works for the individual.
When my wife is depressed, she will argue that there's no point in doing any of it.
Get her to watch the documentaries on Netflix of the people fighting IS, or living in Syria during the war, and ask her how they feel about life.
Imagine being born and living in Mosul or Raqqa, then compare that to our lot in this country.
If she is religeous, piont out that laziness is a Sin, so it's the devil making her like this...
Think you misunderstood what I said about exercise - not daily, the benefit was only during.
I did see that bit, but I was generalising.
If it's as easy as exercise, explain the professional sports people with issues?
maybe they need to run more ?
sort of joking but I wonder what percentage of runners are depressed compared to other sports - mainly because I notice the effect of running on me compared to other exercise. For example walking or yoga would just be a massive waste of time for me.
I've always thought using drugs was the wrong way of treating depression.
It is if it's the only treatment offered. For the severely depressed the drugs will allow them to see some light approaching, get onto further CBT treatment or take up physical therapies. Without the drugs these severely depressed people won't move from their corner.
Been there, done that, off the Citalopram for 7 years plus now.
I think the exercise is the classic "everything in moderation", generally improving your health and undertaking moderate exercise in my mind can only be a good thing, especially outside.
As per my post above, too much and it is easy to take it too far and empty yourself. A good female friend, is up at 5am cycles to the gym, in the gym for an hour, goes back at lunchtime from work to the gym, then after work it is gym for third time, out on bike for 50 miles or running, she is completely obsessive to the point that even when she had a severe stress fracture, she really had to be bullied to stop running, the minute she stopped exercise, she became really difficult and hated others that were out on bike.
Running is effective as every time I run I'd be happier if I was doing more or less anything else to be honest 🙂
Get her to watch the documentaries on Netflix of the people fighting IS, or living in Syria during the war, and ask her how they feel about life.
"See how easy my life is compared to them, and yet I am still a mess. I'm a poor excuse for a Han being."
Depression isn't about feeling g sad. It's often about thinking you are worthless as a human. Seeing the suffering of others does nothing to change that.
If she is religeous, piont out that laziness is a Sin, so it's the devil making her like this...
This bit was just a joke, right? Please tell me you were joking...
Get her to watch the documentaries on Netflix of the people fighting IS, or living in Syria during the war, and ask her how they feel about life.
Worse things happen at sea, eh?
You're either a buffoon or you're trolling, in either case I don't think starting a thread about depression is really appropriate.
You're either a buffoon or you're trolling, in either case I don't think starting a thread about depression is really appropriate.
well a bit of a troll, but there is also the case of some of the complaints I have seen on here in depression threads, like having a bad christmas because of not getting on with the MIL make me think this is a massive example of a first world problem. Watching the people in those documentaries dealing with all the sh1t that is thrust upon them sort of puts things in context.
And maybe some context about the triviality of your problems might help.
Even if Turner guy has previous this is one of the "better" depression threads I've seen on here because whilst not denying medication might help some people the article makes clear it doesn't do better than a placebo for others. And then there are the alternative positive things being suggested: lots of light, vitamin D, exercise, sex, low-sugar diet, being in love, intellectual stimulation... . So anyone with ideas that have been shown to work for some people should be welcome on the thread.
I don't suffer depression but struggle against a Winter slow down. Living further south helps enormously, swimming outdoors over lunchtime gets some UV on the skin and time above the snowline where there's so much light sunglasses are essential really makes a difference to me.
TurnerGuy - MemberAnd maybe some context about the triviality of your problems might help.
It's unlikely though because depression isn't directly related to a "problem". Depression is not "I don't have the latest iphone so I want to end my life". Problems such as an unfulfilling job, loneliness, feeling helpless or unwanted, grief, remorse etc can compound or contribute to underlying issues or external causes.
A perfect example for you (as featured in the links I shared) would be someone leaving the military. They are leaving behind a group with a clear structure, clearly defined tasks and a strict regimen. Couple that with a knock on the head they suffered in action that manifests itself six months or a year later as a serious hormonal imbalance which starts to make them feel suicidal. It's the extreme example but there could be many similar factors conspiring to drive men of a certain age to feel depressed, lack of worth, suicidal etc.
Temper your desire to troll people with the knowledge that you've started a good discussion. If you continue to beat that drum you'll completely derail the thread which would be a shame.
but there is also the case of some of the complaints I have seen on here in depression threads, like having a bad christmas because of not getting on with the MIL make me think this is a massive example of a first world problem
You don't get depressed because of those things. But when you suffer from depression they can seem overwhelming and very hard to deal with.
Accusing people of having first world problems when they feel they are really struggling could be pretty damaging, when depressed people struggle with self-worth in the first place.
And maybe some context about the triviality of your problems might help.
It helps the person who is feeling sorry for themselves. But that is NOT AT ALL the same thing as depression, and it's vitally important that everyone recognises this.
I’m a huge fan of exercise, and always have been. I often find that I can boost my mood by going on a bike ride. BUT dealing with depression is not as simple as “doing more exercise”. I reach a point where I no longer benefit much from exercise. Right now, my legs feel leaden and I’m really tired. Yesterday I forced myself to ride 73 miles because it was sunny and exercise is a panacea, right? No. I struggled the whole day and felt worse when I got home.
Quote: “Watching the people in those documentaries dealing with all the sh1t that is thrust upon them sort of puts things in context”
It’s one thing to count your blessings but a depressed person dwelling on all the other problems that people face serves to lower their mood further.
You're either a buffoon or you're trolling,
It is a bit of both, as it is with all of his posts.
Have you thought of doing something like dance classes, Vickypea? Moderate exercise for an hour rather than suffering by yourself for hours on a bike, uplifting music, lots of happy people, eye contact, human contact, smiles, sexy without being slutty, smutty or chatting up because everyone plays by rules of contact. And no pressure to drink alcohol.
Edukator, yes I used to go to a salsa class and really enjoyed it. Recently tried to get Mr Pea to consider it, but he’s dead against doing a dance class. I could go on my own I suppose. I’m starting yoga tomorrow night.
brassneck - MemberIf it's as easy as exercise, explain the professional sports people with issues?
Just coming back to that, a lot of the professional sports people who have had public battles with depression are the ones who've retired. So, they left their structured regime, they may well have left their team, or their collegues and they've left the "job" that gives them a sense of worth or self respect.
Added to that you might have a lot of semi or full contact sports leading to brain trauma, leading to inflammation on the brain leading to hormonal imbalances compounded by less training, added to free time and money to indulge in recreational drugs and you have a slippery slope.
A rebuttal of sorts...
Can Living at Altitude Lead to Depression?
https://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/can-living-at-altitude-lead-to-depression-20141204/
hypoxia also causes the brain to make more dopamine — which is generally linked to rewarding activities. So depending on your genetics, if you have a predisposition to lower serotonin levels or depression and anxiety, you could trip over the fact that your brain isn’t making as much serotonin, and be affected by the altitude. But if you’re someone who loves coming here and feel at home on the mountains, that’s the dopamine elevation effect explaining why you’re happy to live there.
When i suffered with depression in the past, i found that during flight,my depression lifted.The only explanation for this, was the slight hypoxia created in the cabin, causing a mood change.
It was a relief,as soon as i hit the ground,the heavy mind returned.
These days i find exercise a good remedy, in keeping it at bay.
I’ve been taking Citalopram for nearly four years. Had depression since my teens and am now in my forties. Talking did nothing for me, mindfulness did nothing for me. Always exercised (until recently) and guess what, it did nothing for me. I wish I’d not have been stubborn and tried medication years ago. Yes there are side effects. Mainly a rather flat mood, but flat is preferable to thoughts of suicide.
I’d like to come off the tablets one day, but for now they are the best solution I’ve found in over twenty years.
When i suffered with depression in the past, i found that during flight,my depression lifted.The only explanation for this, was the slight hypoxia created in the cabin, causing a mood change.
It was a relief,as soon as i hit the ground,the heavy mind returned.
Aren't you a bit confused there? You're saying that during a flight your depression lifted despite hypoxia (i.e. lack of oxygen). But it was a relief when you got back on the ground and your depression returned.
I don't get it.
Aren't you a bit confused there? You're saying that during a flight your depression lifted despite hypoxia (i.e. lack of oxygen). But it was a relief when you got back on the ground and your depression returned.I don't get it.
I meant it was a relief during flight,forgot a full stop there.
Seems hypoxia, causes dopamine elevation for some people,and for others,a negative effect, due to low serotonin.
I'm one of the lucky ones,i guess.
Maybe Llving in a hypoxic environment, might help to alleviate depression,for some ?
Maybe Llving in a hypoxic environment, might help to alleviate depression,for some ?
But the link you provided indicates completely the opposite. Hypoxia seems to have a direct link with depression.
Depression, complicated and very personal to the individual but until dealt with, just recycles.
There is no magic answer, no catch all solution to enable people who live in a depressed state of dis-ease, to actually deal with their demons. Therefore, medication will help some, but not all. By the same reasoning, counselling, CBT, mindfulness, exercise et al will also work for some, but not for all.
We each need to find our own way out, a way that is right for the individual. Which requires a certain amount of get up and go to start looking for our own way. I used to feel that my get up and go had got up and ****ed off, which used to start the spinning downward spiral and i would describe my world and being grey, bleak and desolate.
I termed myself as a cyclical ( no pun intended) depressive, with what I termed as major bouts occurring every seven years or so; my last major bout of deep depression was over 10 years ago. Am I fully recovered? Possibly, yes, it's up to me, like any behavioural addiction, I could now make the familiar and well trodden mental connections and whizz down the rabbit hole again, but I choose not to. I make my own world, I might as well make it good for me.
Coming to terms with and actually [b]accepting[/b] my mental state, rather than being angry with myself for having no real right to be pissed off with me and my world, was one of the major turning points in my recovery. There were many others too, it was like a jigsaw that finally came together. The pieces materialised following lots of reading, lots of being actively curious about how I could choose to think differently about my beliefs and more importantly for me, my expectations of myself and my world around me.
A combination of many diverse ingredients has helped me enormously, which I sum up with three words: Mindfulness, acceptance and attitude. They work for me, they may well not for anyone else. I choose their definitions too. In my frame of reference they work. Find your own frame of reference, the Buddhists talk about the Right Effort. If something is too much effort, is it really helping you? Find the ways that feel good, they generally will be.
Be brutally honest with yourself and your dis-ease. There may, more likely, will, be difficult decisions and home truths that you'll need to tackle along your journey, be brave, be true and remember that in spite of the current love for labels and excuses, we can only be truly responsible for our own happiness and dealing with our chattering minds.
Peace out.
Thanks for the original post.
I have known quite a few people who have been on long term antidepressants and 3 that have been on them over 10 years. My observations are not intended to cover 100% of people on antidepressents, but do, in my personal experience, cover the majority I have personally known.
People get trapped in rubbish jobs where they are unappreciated or undermined in various forms. People get trapped in personal lives where they are unappreciated, undermined, suffer from poor communication or are otherwise unhappy. Some of us, at some point in our lives get trapped in both situations at the same time.
I have seen people in both circumstances struggle off to the doctor. Generally they are immediately offered pills on the grounds the pills 'will help'. Not mentioned is that they are fast to dispense, cheaper than councelling and get the patient out of the office.
it is implied genuine life change should be deferred and practical support for such change is almost non existent. Unhappy people are told that being depressed is intrinsic to them and therefore unavoidable, or that after having been on the antidepressants for months or even longer it might help them start to work through their problems... eventually. There is very little emphasis on what can be changed by the person themselves right away or in the very near future. So in reality people remain unsupported, in unchanged unhappy situations counting on pills to make things appear better. Pills becomes part of the process of learning to tolerate, accept and indeed expect that life is always miserable and we are powerless to change that. The option offered is not to challenge that belief, but to zone out on medication as the escape.
People are lazy, fearful, cling to familiarity and dislike change (yes, I do include me in that).
Often attempts at positive self change by an individual are resisted by the work place or by family or friends - "why move Fred to a new position we will just have to go through a recruitment process, we should stay together for the childrens sake they don't notice our rows, you will never get another job, I cant believe you are prepared to take a pay cut" etc etc
So nothing genuinely changes. People remain unhappy. They take more pills. They then take more medication to counter the side effects of some of the antidepressents.
I know 3 people who have been on antidepressants and tolerated related side effects for over 10 years. In that time not one of them has tried to change jobs they hate/attempted to adjust unhappy personal lives. In conversation its "but I can cope with this while I am on my pills, I don't need to change things". All 3 of them have been hostile and resistant to any reduction of dosage let alone coming off and are not even curious about trying a lower dose, to even see if anything has improved in their heads over the 10 years of life they have been on the medication.
Some people are mentally ill and do need medication and this is not aimed at them, but many many people who take antidepressants are using it as an opt out from making worthwhile but intimidating change in their lifestyle. It is equally the fault of the (underfunded) medical system. No doctor should be legally permitted to prescribe antidepressants without the patient first completing a decent length of counseling to identify what is really wrong and get support in changing it.
There is too much profiteering in the manufacture of pills and too much financial pressure on the NHS to take the cheap route of pills over counseling and huge chunks of peoples lives are being wasted because of it, never mind the significantly increased risk of suicide which is known to be linked to some families of pills.
In some ways I am grateful for having met people on long term antidepressants. When I got health issues myself I was offered antidepressants but held out for counseling. I could see the people on pills tended to not change their lives and therefore had very much longer term unhappiness than those who took stuff for a very short strictly defined period, or those chose to take nothing at all, as the last 2 groups tended to adjust life to a better quality thereby curing the source of depression instead of muffling it.
Midnighthour- some really good points. I know someone who has been on an SSRI for over 10 years. Every time they stop taking it, their mood plummets after a month or two. I suggested that counselling might help resolve the depression as the pills clearly haven’t, but the NHS turned them down for counselling and the 3 different GPS they spoke to have nothing to offer but go back on the meds/increase the dose. It saddens and frustrates me.
Temper your desire to troll people with the knowledge that you've started a good discussion. If you continue to beat that drum you'll completely derail the thread which would be a shame.
I think I've prompted some comments that might not have made the thread if I hadn't have put my trolling hat on.
vicky - have you tried running, even the brisk walking with an interval sprint ? My ex-wife certainly seemed to benefit.
I’ve been taking Citalopram for nearly four years. Had depression since my teens and am now in my forties. Talking did nothing for me, mindfulness did nothing for me. Always exercised (until recently) and guess what, it did nothing for me. I wish I’d not have been stubborn and tried medication years ago. Yes there are side effects. Mainly a rather flat mood, but flat is preferable to thoughts of suicide.I’d like to come off the tablets one day, but for now they are the best solution I’ve found in over twenty years.
Precisely my point, and I'm delighted for you. Our case was the same, this wasn't some 10 weeks of feeling a bit low, a life long issue that was brought to a head by bullying at work, which in a way worked out for the best - new job and a prescription that has completely changed her view of life, which she had concealed from everyone. It was a tough year, but better for it.
The tablets may be long term (about the same here too, 4 years) or maybe she'll decide to try and work off them, but being able to make that choice from a better position has to be good - I'd never put meds front and center but I worry others are being pilloried for 'not trying hard enough' but current vogues in the media when they could access something truly helpful.
I think that, for many depressed people experiencing a low, putting on trainers and going for a run is not likely to be feasible. Nor is a rational process of experimentation with different options.
I am not depressed but I don't much care for running and I have to be in a good mood to attempt it. I sometimes don't go biking because I am in a bad mood too, and I enjoy biking, so I can understand this problem.
vickypea often mentions Vitamin D deficiency being a problem and anyone that has to resort to SAD lights must know this.
SAD lights do not correct a vitamin D deficiency. Vit D requires UVB light to contact the skin. SAD lights only emit visible light (and a tiny bit of infra-red), and are only used to moderate production of melatonin.
I've suffered with anxiety and depression throughout most of my adult life and much of my teens.
I tried to take my own life when I was 19 as a result of complicating the condition by self-medicating with recreational drugs. I spent all of my early 20s almost completely non-functioning whilst being treated with various medications and in-patient visits to the local psychiatric ward.
Throughout this period, doctors would advocate exercise as the best tool available to combat symptoms but when the thought of something as simple as getting up to go to the toilet is an emotionally draining ordeal, the idea of taking regular exercise seemed impossible.
Eventually I started to use my brother's dumb bells, because I was desperately lonely and absolutely compelled to get one last crack at some female attention before I finally withered away and died.
Vanity and the primal urge to get laid was a good motivator, and so I had a bit of a break through.
My attempts to create some puny biceps saw a slight lift in my mood, I started leaving the house occasionally and eventually bumped into an old flame who took me under her wing.
I've been back down again, probably even lower but never so completely helpless and incapacitated as that first severe bout.
I've since tried unorthodox psychedelic therapies with great results, although I won't mention too much about that as the methods were extreme and unconventional and ultimately unsustainable (once my children were born I was unwilling to be so experimental in my approach to dealing with my condition) but I believe that new scientific research in that field is looking hopeful.
So currently, when my other half flags up a marker that the black dog is knocking (she often notices before I do) I turn immediately to exercise with DOMS being the short term goal.
I say that because DOMS is a tangible sensation that is present and in my awareness and helps me to focus on the long term goal of maintaining a physical exercise regime that is sufficient in lifting and stabilising my mood.
As yet I haven't been able to consistently sustain this sort of regime as any number of factors including illness, injury and time management will invariably derail my efforts at some point, but it's the best I've got at present.
I've thought too, about returning to sssri medications as they undoubtedly increase 'happiness' in the short term, but as with the psychedelic therapies my mood becomes a little bit too unstable to promote good parenting, for this type of medication to be of any long term use.
The whole life change thing is a separate issue.
I believe that fundamental life changes are a superb way to combat depression and have embraced the idea to it's fullest extent in the past.
I have packed a few things in a bag and walked away to start a fresh life on numerous occasions and it has always been a completely successful method.
We probably get stuck in patterns of behaviour and thinking, and these patterns are reinforced by work, by friends, family so taking off into the great unknown to meet new people with new perspectives and fresh interpersonal dynamics cannot fail.
But, old habits die hard and I think unless you can keep moving (with whatever pitfalls that might entail) you will always fall into old hardwired patterns and habits
I dunno if this little anecdote is of any use to the debate but it's been cathartic writing it 🙂
I dunno if this little anecdote is of any use to the debate but it's been cathartic writing it
I read it - good post.
yunki
The whole life change thing is a separate issue.
I believe that fundamental life changes are a superb way to combat depression and have embraced the idea to it's fullest extent in the past.
I have packed a few things in a bag and walked away to start a fresh life on numerous occasions and it has always been a completely successful method.
We probably get stuck in patterns of behaviour and thinking, and these patterns are reinforced by work, by friends, family so taking off into the great unknown to meet new people with new perspectives and fresh interpersonal dynamics cannot fail.But, old habits die hard and I think unless you can keep moving (with whatever pitfalls that might entail) you will always fall into old hardwired patterns and habits
And there is a truth. Word for word have experienced exactly the same.
Hi Yunki, some of that is so similar to my experience.
Reads like clickbait
So, what is really going on? When I interviewed social scientists all over the world – from São Paulo to Sydney, from Los Angeles to London – I started to see an unexpected picture emerge. We all know that every human being has basic physical needs: for food, for water, for shelter, for clean air. It turns out that, in the same way, all humans have certain basic psychological needs. We need to feel we belong. We need to feel valued. We need to feel we’re good at something. We need to feel we have a secure future. And there is growing evidence that our culture isn’t meeting those psychological needs for many – perhaps most – people. I kept learning that, in very different ways, we have become disconnected from things we really need, and this deep disconnection is driving this epidemic of depression and anxiety all around us.
No shit Sherlock, I worked that out when I first got high. MrJesus though, spent years researching to get to this point and decided to write a book to tell us all about his revelation.
I preferred the rebuttal in yesterday's paper
Sorry as I haven't caught up on this all yet, but question to all those that have suffered or are suffering
Have you looked into Vitamin D defficiency? And have you had any success with supplements?
Sorry if this is covered somewhere in all the info posted already
Thanks
I didn’t intend to imply that you can make vitamin D by using a SAD light box. I do use a light box and also take vitamin D in the winter, but there are two different things going on with regards to lack of sunlight in winter.
I believe that fundamental life changes are a superb way to combat depression and have embraced the idea to it's fullest extent in the past.
It's not always possible though, without inflicting a great deal of upset and pain on others which is where people can feel trapped.
didn’t intend to imply that you can make vitamin D by using a SAD light box. I do use a light box and also take vitamin D in the winter, but there are two different things going on with regards to lack of sunlight in winter.
I think I accidently implied that whereas I was thinking that someone whose using a light box might be more aware of the vit D issue.
There was a medical type on the radio the other day who was running down the importance of vit D a bit, talking about ricketts, etc. But the fact that 70% of tissues have receptors for it implies to me that it is pretty vital.
There was a medical type on the radio the other day who was running down the importance of vit D a bit, talking about ricketts, etc. But the fact that 70% of tissues have receptors for it implies to me that it is pretty vital.
Quite. I think rickets is actually one of the last, most disastrous symptoms of a deficiency - there's plenty of bad stuff going on before you reach that point.
Unfortunately a lot of the historical guidelines about safe levels were only those required to prevents rickets in children, with little appreciation of the other systemic effects. That may have changed now though.
I've not read the whole thread but this series of tweets expalins where the auther in the OP got his 'statistics' from and it's basically bollocks. He picked a number from a 2009 self published book that used one 2004 study as a vague basis.
[url= https://twitter.com/StuartJRitchie/status/951210391908114438 ]https://twitter.com/StuartJRitchie/status/951210391908114438[/url]
Frankly, this is 'vaccines give you autism' all over again as far as any scientific credibility is concerned.