[Closed] Is everything you think you know about depression wrong?

lazy lazy post...

Tell us your thoughts.

The assumption here is that the only treatment option for depression is pharmaceutical, whereas in the real world many other options including counselling, CBT and mindfulness can make a huge difference, whether you want to class the condition as depression, grief, work stress or whatever

lazy lazy post...

b8llocks is it.

I noticed the article on their web site and thought that I would put a link here so that anybody that doesn't read their web site but is interested in the subject, which is a recurring one on here, would be made aware of it.

My thoughts on depression would clash with a lot of peoples on here so I thought, for a change, I won't start a trolling thread - especially as I can't be 8rsed to argue with a bunch of glass-half-empty types (I think I've now broken the non-trolling objective...).

My last comment is that someone who was suffering badly with depression posted a link on here to the below book, which he said helped turned it around.

I've read it and also bought a copy for a depressed friend, who thought it was good :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/59-Seconds-Think-little-change/dp/1447273370/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1515399953&sr=8-1&keywords=59+seconds

One could be harsh and ask if he made up half the quotes and interviews in the book/ article

Plenty of people doing good work in the field who don't have the benefit of his connections

Good article, but not a new revelation, and as shermer75 days, I think it's generally acknowledged now that drugs treat symptoms only and provide some respite from those symptoms to enable you to deal with underlying issues.

That said, from my own experiences as a 'service user' thankfully now almost 10 years ago, the advice that you had some kind of chemical inbalance in the brain was not only wrong but I think potentially harmful to vulnerable patients. I knew others who took on their mental illness as an identity, resigning themselves to it as a permanent disability, something they were born with and would forever live with.

I was hospitalised twice under section for depression, it was a horrifying few years of my life. But in my experience one of the most terrifying parts was the slow realisation that there is no help really, no magic fix or drug, and the experts had virtually no understanding. How can anyone who hasn't had depression really understand, let alone treat the illness?
I realised eventually I had to fix myself, so I rebuilt my life. It has taken years of pain and hard work, and I'm thankfully now more happy than ever before.

When this comes up I always try to think of a simple one liner to explain my thoughts and conclusions by way of advice. But it's difficult to do.
However really it's this; we have not evolved to live in artificially lit air conditioned boxes doing meaningless tasks, worse still despite what society (parents, schools, peers, the government) tell you it's not what you are 'supposed' to do.

If I could pick three things...
You must; 1)gain some control over your working life, be productive, creative and find meaning in what you are doing, 2) stay fit by going outdoors (not in a gym), 3) find community, volunteer, care for others.

thanks for linking the article.

all humans have certain basic psychological needs. We need to feel we belong. We need to feel valued. We need to feel we’re good at something. We need to feel we have a secure future. And there is growing evidence that our culture isn’t meeting those psychological needs for many – perhaps most – people.

I think there's an awful lot in this, but I don't think it totally undermines the chemistry in the brain imbalance. If you're run ragged, and flat out eventually you crash, how long and how bad that is varies, and I really think meds can and do help. But they need to be a part of a mixed approach, meds, councillor access, exercise, diet, being left the flip alone are all part of it. Currently NHS money is so tight we only get part of what's required.

I agree with barkm and Wookster.

I had counselling with a fantastic counsellor and I was doing well on it, but we were cut short by nhs restrictions. It was his opinion that “life has happened to Vicky”. I also believe that there is a brain chemistry problem relating to seasonal depression and lack of natural light which also is part of my problem.

Antidepressants may have a place in treatment but the information available to understand who might benefit and for how long is obscured by the fact that so much data has been hidden. A related example is gabapentin, which has been used for migraine prevention for years based on the results of a meta-analysis, but more recently it was discovered that the meta-analysis only included the positive trials, so it was repeated. The repeated meta-analysis showed that gabapentin was no more effective than placebo for migraine treatment. And a good deal more toxic.
I know a couple of people who have been on antidepressants for decades with no other treatment offered to them, and I think that’s very wrong. These drugs haven’t been studied for such long-term use.

I've read 59 Seconds after you previously posted it and whilst I understand it as someone who suffers it's not helped me.
[i]If I could pick three things...
You must; 1)gain some control over your working life, be productive, creative and find meaning in what you are doing, 2) stay fit by going outdoors (not in a gym), 3) find community, volunteer, care for others.[/i]
Totally agree although I've got a long way to go realising any of them

The assumption here is that the only treatment option for depression is pharmaceutical, whereas in the real world many other options including counselling, CBT and mindfulness can make a huge difference, whether you want to class the condition as depression, grief, work stress or whatever

I agree, having been through several periods of depression myself. I used to be very old school - pull yourself together man! - so didn't really understand 25 years ago i was depressed, but I was also single and had no-one to force me to face up to it. I've been through a few sessions of CBT counselling now and it has helped immensely, even if I'm still a bit old school - most of what i was told / taught I knew anyway / was common sense, but it still helps to have it documented and then waved in your face rather than wallow in the swamp where you refuse to do anything about it yourself.

But one thing i do still 'disagree' slightly with the above - is that CBT / mindfulness / etc. are all still treatments for the condition as opposed to a cure. They help me deal with the stresses and strains of daily life much better, but if the real issue is that you just hate your job, or partner, or whatever is causing the problem, unless that changes then all you are doing is coping with it better. Now, some of those things may never go away so coping is all we do but in other cases you have to treat the cause rather than the symptoms.

Over simplistic, and also I'm acutely aware that they are linked in that if (for example as in my case) my job got me so down I totally lacked the motivation to do the hard yards necessary to find a new one - then you need both something to help you cope to give you the capability to then deal with the issue.

And some things can't be avoided. My parents are both elderly and some time in the not too distant future, i will lose one or both of them. No amount of drugs or CBT will prevent that, and I'll have to 'deal with it' one way or another.

barkm you are spot on. I enjoyed reading that and +1 to all of it. Congratulations on identifying and turning it around.

If it's good enough for Elton John....

Johann Hari

No thanks.

One could be harsh and ask if he made up half the quotes and interviews in the book/ article
Plenty of people doing good work in the field who don't have the benefit of his connections

That really doesn't invalidate the article. Which does acknowledge the issue you raise.

I've always thought using drugs was the wrong way of treating depression. The quote below from the article sums up my thoughts on the subject, drugs just make it go away temporarily without actually doing anything about the cause.

Drugs are easy, finding the actual cause and making that go away isn't.

To them, finding an antidepressant didn’t mean finding a way to change your brain chemistry. It meant finding a way to solve the problem that was causing the depression in the first place.

Skimming the article his conclusions about depression seem very similar if not identical to Sebastian Junger's conclusions when he wrote the book "Tribe". Junger was a war correspondent and documentary film maker who was crippled by depression, suicidal thoughts and the break up of his marriage after he returned home having been embedded with a military unit in Afghanistan while making Restrepo.

He talks in depth about his book, his experiences and his opinions on the JRE. Download the audio [url= http://podcasts.joerogan.net/podcasts/sebastian-junger ]here.[/url]

Again, something I considered posting but didn't. The TLDR is that traumatic brain injury, and even sub traumatic brain injury can cause inflamation in the brain, which leads to hormonal imbalances which can manifest themselves as depression, suicidal tendencies, erratic or unpredictable behaviour, substance abuse etc months or years down the line.

Worth an hour and a half of anyone's time if they, or anyone they know might be struggling with depression.

If you consider that two key levers to depression could be mild to severe head injury, and not feeling like your work or effort is valued, and not feeling like an important part of a group you can perhaps start to see why there's such a large number of depressed people on this forum.

Interesting. I've skim read the piece and it makes a great deal of sense.

Thanks for posting, OP.

I've read 'Tribe' twice, it's excellent and interesting because I think instinctively we all know what makes us feel good, and that is working with others for something good. We've evolved for the struggle to survive, doing that alone would once mean death. We each are wired to perform a particular role within a tribe to contribute to that struggle. We are definitely not wired to be pitched against each other in a wholly contrived 'struggle'. Evolutionary alarm bells are ringing like crazy in a lot of peoples heads for that reason.
Simply put, we live as fish out of water, and in severe distress.

I've always thought using drugs was the wrong way of treating depression.

I have a feeling that there are different underlying causes of depression. Your brain runs on these chemicals it produces in response to stimuli, so it's not unreasonable to suggest that in some cases they may not be being produced or taken up correctly because of some pathological reason. On the other hand, they may be not be being produced because the stimulus isn't there.

I am not a doctor though so this may be bollocks.

barkm - Member

We've evolved for the struggle to survive, doing that alone would once mean death. We each are wired to perform a particular role within a tribe to contribute to that struggle. We are definitely not wired to be pitched against each other in a wholly contrived 'struggle'.

I don't disagree, but in our ancestral past we had clearly defined outgroups as well as our in groups. The other tribes who would come and steal your stuff, or kill you.

In a lot of group endevours you've still got this - the military would be an obvious one, sports teams, individual competition as part of a sports club, community spirit....all contrived but "real" factors in creating some sense of belonging or structure for people. Perhaps.

Just want to bookmark to read later.

Thanks op.

yes agree, I did think about acknowledging that factor. I mean pitched against each other as individuals, it compounds the misery of being without a tribe. (feelings of inadequacy, isolation etc)
Although 'tribalism' in this context can of course be unhealthy (football hooliganism etc). But it is still an instinct.

Good article, but not a new revelation, and as shermer75 days, I think it's generally acknowledged now that drugs treat symptoms only and provide some respite from those symptoms to enable you to deal with underlying issues.

yep, absolutely nothing new in that article, people have been discussing the same issues ever since Prozac came on the scene.

barkm - Member

yes agree, I did think about acknowledging that factor. I mean pitched against each other as individuals, it compounds the misery of being without a tribe. (feelings of inadequacy, isolation etc)

It probably works for some people if they have agency over their own actions, enjoy their work and feel that they are valued within some group. Conversely, if you're being told that you must outperform Corporation D, because you work for Company E, and nothing really changes when you work as hard as you can, and you're work has nothing tangible or meanigful at the end of it you're going to struggle.

Although 'tribalism' in this context can of course be unhealthy (football hooliganism etc). But it is still an instinct.

Yes, but for the hooligans it's probably an important part of their identity. Hooligans might be a bit strong, you'd probably see similar patterns with those supper fans who go to every game and use "we" when referring to sports teams.

I've become aware of the points this article makes for awhile now and thankfully and maybe surprisingly it was on an NHS funded recovery course I attended.
I can't find the exact sheet I've got pinned on my door but it follows the same basic principles outlined in the article and in this link.
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/stress-anxiety-depression/improve-mental-wellbeing/?#five-steps-to-mental-wellbeing

It ain't rocket science when you accept what it's telling you and I'm finding it very helpful and am taking steps to follow it's advice.

I like many I suppose got tricked into following the "modern" way of life and it did not compute.

All I know is I gave up on medication over ten years ago, because even when something good happened, emotionally I was completely neutral. These days, it's lightbox therapy and outdoor time via cycling.

I have a feeling that there are different underlying causes of depression. Your brain runs on these chemicals it produces in response to stimuli, so it's not unreasonable to suggest that in some cases they may not be being produced or taken up correctly because of some pathological reason. On the other hand, they may be not be being produced because the stimulus isn't there.

I have personal experience of somebody very close to me not ever feeling 'normal' until they were finally prescribed Citalopram - so I'd also say don't (as is trending frequently) write off pharmaceutical intervention either.

EDIT: TL;DR I agree with Moly 🙂

book marking for a proper read later

Mental health problems cannot be labelled nor treated with full confidence. The spectrum of symptoms and impact is infinite.

I believe that only one that has suffered from depression can describe depression.

Most working environments and the UK working culture is toxic. It literally makes people mentally unwell.

Few people can maintain good mental health with consistent uncertainty, lack of influence on daily tasks and job insecurity. However, a lot of people live those lives due to the lies of “the only constant is change”, “continuous improvement” and “performance management”. Continuous improvement is one of my favourites - the equivalent of homeopathy in the workplace.

Shareholder value and the idea of more with less as the only valid measure of efficiency have a lot to answer for...

Based on some recent experience I found that running as an exercise was a lot more effective for me than cycling at controlling/suppressing any down or anxious feelings, not that I get that many.

I have personal experience of somebody very close to me not ever feeling 'normal' until they were finally prescribed Citalopram

My ex was like this - but she conveniently ignored the time she was regularly swimming and also running (actually a brisk walk followed by a short run, and repeat). She was bouncing off the walls when she did this, much better than at any time she was on Citalopram.

vickypea often mentions Vitamin D deficiency being a problem and anyone that has to resort to SAD lights must know this.

Apparently 70% or more of the bodies tissues have vitamin D receptors

( https://www.amazon.co.uk/Health-Delusion-Achieve-Exceptional-Century/dp/1848506864/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1515416171&sr=8-1&keywords=Health+delusion)

and so we are gagging for quality sunlight.

The UK RDA is apparently 1/3rd that Canada determines is a good level, and that book concludes that the Canadians are probably correct.

http://www.lifeextension.com/Magazine/2013/8/The-Overlooked-Importance-of-Vitamin-D-Receptors/Page-01

They reckon that vitamin D deficiency is a global epidemic :

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vitamin+D+epidemic&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=-GpTWoqnBMjW8geZkr7gCg

although not everyone agrees...

I like the idea of starting a bike co-op as a way of treating depression. I’m certainly much happier being my own boss rather than being a corporate minion, even with less money and more responsibility.

but she conveniently ignored the time she was regularly swimming and also running

If my wife is anythign to go buy, that's not conveniently ignoring (very negative passive-aggressive phrase that is) things. Not acknowledging the good is a symptom of depression.

My ex was like this - but she conveniently ignored the time she was regularly swimming and also running (actually a brisk walk followed by a short run, and repeat). She was bouncing off the walls when she did this, much better than at any time she was on Citalopram.

All I'm saying is that 'get out and exercise more' is an equally simplistic viewpoint to 'take 2 of those daily', and all avenues should be explored. For the record she was regularly running, cycling and swimming, more so than now, but the 'up' (and by up I mean levelling the playing field rather than a high) only lasted as long as the exercise, which isn't massively practical.

Agree about the vit D issue though, one of the reasons I take a supplement vitamin.

I like the idea of starting a bike co-op as a way of treating depression.

I know this isn't what you meant, but you reminded me of a blog post I did about a fantastic Scottish bike scheme this time last year...

http://unduro.co.uk/thoughts/cycle-to-health/

Interesting article. The intersection of cycling and mental health happens all over, my mate Neil runs Common Wheel https://www.commonwheel.org.uk/

Not acknowledging the good is a symptom of depression.

it was acknowledged but she didn't have the drive to do anything about it. Some other women I have met have realised this link and force themselves out for a run regularly. Many of the people I passed in the spin class in the gym at 7.20am this morning probably also realised this.

So what if you have to exercise every day to keep feeling OK, that's not surprising. I will be one of those old geezers you see pounding the street because I need to exercise a lot to feel OK (although I might just be on my kickr in the garage...).

All I'm saying is that 'get out and exercise more' is an equally simplistic viewpoint to 'take 2 of those daily', and all avenues should be explored.

except that exercise won't have the side effects

my mate Neil runs Common Wheel

Looks good, we have a similar thing near me too. I drop my tat off with them now and then.

On the subject, if anyone's aware of any other mental health-related MTB groups - please do drop me a line.

i have been struggling the whole of 2017 with the Doctors constantly sending me for blood tests, for everything from T2 diabetes, to cancer to thyroid issues, i basically believe i have Overtraining Syndrome which gives me feelings of depression, terrible lethargy, the want to ride my bike, but when i do i have a completely empty tank and tiredness like i've never known. Self-inflicted in that i was enjoying cycling so much and feeling as fit in my early 40's as i was a young man, that i was commuting 40-58 miles a day monday to friday and doing 100 mile events at weekends but after about 13 months of doing it, i just ground to a halt, couldn't stop sleeping, lost interest in bikes completely, really snappy temper, terrible lethargy and all my joints are often painful.

But i mention the above, and i just keep getting sent for more blood tests and the doctors have no interest in helping get to the bottom of it.

I get spells when i'm on an up, i'm outgoing and get on bike and can enjoy a 30-50 mile ride, by the next weekend i struggle to ride 2 miles and just want to stay in bed, absolutely hate the feeling...

Worth reading the website of Dr David Healy, British Psychiatrist and Psychopharmacologist. He regularly writes a blog where comments are accepted, some are harrowing. Not Establishment.

www.davidhealy.org

Council for Evidence-Based Psychiatry:

http://cepuk.org/

Many of the people I passed in the spin class in the gym at 7.20am this morning probably also realised this.

Another symptom is being unable to take positive rational steps to fix the problem.

Not quite sure you understand the issue fully.

molgrips - Member

Not quite sure you understand the issue fully.

molgrips - Member

I am not a doctor though so this may be bollocks.

You don't either though. Neither do experts in the field. Hence the thread.