[Closed] Is driving getting worse?

[quote=ads678 ]Unfortunately, unless people are given autonomous and made to scrap their non autonomous ones, the only people that will actually buy them, if they actually afford them, are the people who are not the problem.

I think the majority of bad drivers are simply careless - not that interested in driving and easily distracted. Such drivers will be early adopters, as they can then spend more of their time texting their mates or applying make-up without getting distracted by less important stuff like driving.

For the rest a combination of legislation and insurance costs will probably do it. No need to force people to scrap cars, simply introduce new driving test requirements - once a driving licence is no longer seen as a right because you don't need one to get around in a car then such changes will become far more politically acceptable. Meanwhile there will be an assumption of liability on the human operated car in any collision, resulting in vastly increased costs for drivers.

Absolutely it is!

The government should insist that everybody resits their test every 5 years and if you fail, tough sh1t!

People on their mobiles drifting between lanes.....doing 40mph on the motorway because they are on their phones.

Bad driving in the rain.....the usual concertina effect because people are driving too close.

People driving FAR too fast for the traffic conditions.....

Although a women in the passenger side of a lorry did pass us topless the other month! 🙂

The list goes on and on....

There never used to be so much red light jumping in edinburgh, basically red light means floor it and squeeze into the box junction. it causes more problems than it solves as the box junctions fill up with cars and no one can get through, making everyone want to jump lights to get home... it's OK on the bike as can squeeze through but infuriating in the car.

Also I seem to be the only car on the road sticking to 20,30 or 40 limits these days!

Why would you buy an autonomous car? I think it will be more like a service, like Uber except without the driver.

That said, i think full autonomy, where you could just get in an unmanned car without a licence (or drunk!) is a lot further away than people think. Engineering a car that is autonomous 100% of the time is a huge jump from 99%.

But you don't need full autonomy to get a lot of the safety benefits. Driver assist and systems that actively intervene to prevent accidents are already being rolled out. They are now required by the EURO NCAP tests to get full marks. There's a lot more of this stuff on the way.

I fear this might actually make driving worse though, even if it doesn't result in an accident.

I think there's plenty of room for improvement, but:

[url= https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/annual-road-fatalities ]latest statistics give lowest death rate ever from UK roads[/url]

Would suggest that driving isn't actually getting worse in a way which matters.

TBH the worst habit I've noticed only emerging recently is the "flashing lights at oncoming overtaking traffic even when the overtake is perfectly safe" (mostly seen it when other vehicles have been overtaking me on the bike, where I'm unlikely to be under-cautious, but also had it done to me when I've been driving and cycling) - which is annoying but not dangerous.

[quote=HoratioHufnagel ]That said, i think full autonomy, where you could just get in an unmanned car without a licence (or drunk!) is a lot further away than people think. Engineering a car that is autonomous 100% of the time is a huge jump from 99%.

Which bits do you think are in the 1%? Because I'm fairly sure the cars Google et al are trialling are 100%. Certainly the sooner we can get past the idea that autonomous cars have to be 100% safe the better and the safer our roads will be - it seems much higher standards are expected of them than of current drivers.

Been a while since I hit the A41 / M25 at rush hour but the standard of driving is simply appalling.

I used to drive it everyday. The A41 has always been a motorway in disguise (the Tring bypass used to be the A41(M), hence the hard shoulder) and the M25 was - well - the M25. I used to liftshare and we had a **** of the day award, which was frequently won by a small group of enthusiastic motorists who enjoyed making progress. A gentleman in a Mini Cooper S-Works was the standout - as said before on here, when he goes I just hope no-one else is hurt.

I can't comment on what it's like now as it's been seven years since I drove it and four years since I left the area. However if you think the A41 is bad, give the A12 a go one day. The lane lottery adds extra spice. 😉

But back to your point, yes - there's several bridges there that would make great speed camera spots. I believe the M25 is now speed camera'd all around that area now too.

Certainly the sooner we can get past the idea that autonomous cars have to be 100% safe the better and the safer our roads will be - it seems much higher standards are expected of them than of current drivers.

I would disagree with this - it is far more practicable to make an autonomous vehicle drive well all the time than it is to make a human do so, and to test the autonomous vehicle to ensure that this is the case - the software and the car will be the same once tested, whereas all you can realistically expect to test a human for is the ability to operate a car in a prescriptive, safe, manner, that realistically will not correspond to how they will operate the car following becoming qualified as their confidence (and to a differing extent, skill level) increases.

Edit - obviously not with the 100% safe part, but you should expect to get far better safety from an autonomous vehicle.

[quote=philjunior ]Edit - obviously not with the 100% safe part, but you should expect to get far better safety from an autonomous vehicle.

Yeah - I think you're missing my point - that there is a reluctance to let autonomous cars onto the roads until they meet some arbitrary safety standard which is far higher than that achieved by current drivers (and yes, I'm inculding myself in that). If ones at the current level were released for public use today the roads would be safer.

Have a friend high up in the car industry working on this stuff - autonomous cars still at least 15-20 years away. Problem is not the cars, they could be autonomous now if the system was built from scratch, it's the existing infrastructure, legal and liability aspects plus other traffic on the road that's the challenge.

The reason driving is getting worse is because of the police/government/safety brigade etc being completely obsessed about speeding rather than 'safe driving'. Since the roads are now mostly policed by cameras, so long as people don't speed then they can get away with drink driving, tailgating, middle lane hogging, aggressive maneuvers, texting, you name it.

To make matters worse, because of the above a huge percentage of the driving population now seem to drive well below the speed limit, just to be sure it would seem. Lost track of the amount of times I've followed someone in a perfectly good car holding everyone else up at 40mph on a clear, safe NSL road. It's no wonder people behind get frustrated and might be tempted to take a risk.

What would make driving safer is more police on the road rather than cameras, having to attend attending compulsory further driver training say every 5-10 years, and a focus on 'bad driving' and courtesy on the road rather than speeding.

[quote=agent007 ]Problem is not the cars, they could be autonomous now if the system was built from scratch, it's the existing infrastructure, legal and liability aspects plus other traffic on the road that's the challenge.

Except they can already cope with the infrastructure and other traffic - it's just the legal stuff which is resulting in thousands of needless deaths and injuries for the next 15-20 years. They could have coped with a system built from scratch 15-20 years ago. I've seen nothing to suggest that the current vehicles being tested aren't already much safer than human drivers even on our current roads.

To make matters worse, because of the above a huge percentage of the driving population now seem to drive well below the speed limit, just to be sure it would seem. Lost track of the amount of times I've followed someone in a perfectly good car holding everyone else up at 40mph on a clear, safe NSL road. It's no wonder people behind get frustrated and might be tempted to take a risk.

I'm not sure there's anything new in that, or that it's anything to do with people being worried about being caught speeding. As often reported on here, typically you'll find such drivers continuing at 40 when they enter a 30 limit.

Roads will only be safer when normal non autonomous cars are banned. If we have a mix of autonomous and non autonomous cars then the nobbers in the normal cars will be driving like nobs trying to get past because they will only be driving at the speed limit!!

Also will I be able to get one as big as my Smax so I can fit bikes and camping gear and then get it to drive me to the south of France while I sit sipping Taittinger and eating pork pies?

And motorbike nobbers. Will we be able to get rid of motorbike nobbers as well? Will there be autonomous motorbikes that don't ride 2" from your arse end revving the tits off it then screaming past on country lanes.

Will all non autonomous motor vehicles only be allowed on private land or race tracks?

I'm 40 now and really can't believe that I'll ever pilot an autonomous vehicle on a fully automated highway.

[quote=ads678 ]Also will I be able to get one as big as my Smax so I can fit bikes and camping gear and then get it to drive me to the south of France while I sit sipping Taittinger and eating pork pies?

No, they will only make small ones, because that's all the technology can cope with - in any case, a well designed one will have sensors to automatically eject anybody with poor culinary tastes.

😀 It'll need a big spring.....

small ones like this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35737104

What about autonomous bikes too?

Lost track of the amount of times I've followed someone in a perfectly good car holding everyone else up at 40mph on a clear, safe NSL road.

Over-caution would equally be caught by regular re-tests.

Though I reckon some of those people literally don't know what the correct speed limit is on NSL roads.
Travelling along the dual carriageway bits of the A69 I regularly see people slowing down to 60 at the speed cameras. Conversely I see people on the A68 who speed up from 60 to 70 every time there are two lanes.

Folks on here who have done speed awareness courses, regularly offer anecdotes about other participants with basic misunderstandings about speed limits or other road rules.

How many cars just overtake a stationary queue in the oncoming lane, none id bet.

The nob heads on the road aren't going to be buying something that will slow them down!

How many cars just overtake a stationary queue in the oncoming lane, none id bet.

I assume you've never driven in the middle east.

Autonomous car may be just around the corner, but nobody's gonna be buying them!
I'll buy one as soon as I can reasonably afford one... I get up in the morning dreading going to work... I love doing my job, just hate the stress of driving to get there.

Yes, but he said buy them, not use them. Why have one on your drive, and pay for the parking during the day, when you could just send it on its way to pick someone else up and pay far less?

Since the roads are now mostly policed by cameras, so long as people don't speed then they can get away with drink driving, tailgating, middle lane hogging, aggressive maneuvers, texting, you name it.

Agree, because of the focus on speed, half the population seem to now think as long as they stick to the speed limit then that makes them a good, safe law abiding motorist. Nothing further from the truth of course.

Some people are safer driving at 80 than other folk driving at 40 on the same stretch of NSL road. I'd far rather get into a car driven sometimes over the speed limit by a well trained, skilled, observant and courteous driver than I would get into a car with someone driving well under the speed limit who seems seems to possess none of the above.

Well, that was prophetic... someone just ran into the back of the car on the M25. Yes, it was a white Audi (company car). Partly caused by the overhead gantry signs coming on at 40mph, so the traffic in front jumped on the brakes.

Fortunately it looks like his car came out of it worse - stranded at the side of the road with broken headlights and dripping radiator fluid. 16-reg too...

Bollocks.

Today police camera van parked in central reservation cars who saw it imediately braked hard, then accelerated hard after they had gone past it by a distance.

Old biddy screaming abuse at me in her meriva, because i overtook a parked car,and encroached into her lane,yet she was parked up with plenty of room to get past.

and a white vw transporter, who sounded his horn because i stopped on a red light, he then drove like a vw nutter to the next red after overtaking me closely.

Yes is the answer.

I drive for a living and see the most ridiculous stuff all day, every day. I try and follow the rules as much as possible and the amount of abuse I get for it is unreal. Driving a van at 50 on a NSL single carriageway is the usual one. Even got punishment passed by a truck in the car last week for doing 50 on a dual carriageway. I was doing 50 as I'd just had to change a tyre due to a puncture for the space saver with it's big yellow 50mph/80ph max sticker. See loads of people with then on doing 80+ and they've usually been on a while as they're dirty.

At least the phone-gazers are easy to spot, wandering all over the place as they do.

Bring on the regular testing, that'll make a difference. I've managed to do three tests in the last few years (C1, C1+E, C) and it's good to refresh things. More police would help but it's so hard to get banned currently that failing a test would be a better deterrent IMO.

Even got punishment passed by a truck in the car last week for doing 50 on a dual carriageway.

That's harsh in your case but to be fair the majority of time the people who do 50 on a dual carriageway and get passed by trucks genuinely don't seem to have a clue what they're doing and probably shouldn't be on the road any more. VW polo on the A14 doing approx 55mph last week with a truck doing 56mph trying to get past it in the right hand lane. Took about 3 miles to complete the overtake. Not sure who's more selfish or ignorant in that case, the car or the truck driver. Both idiots IMO.

I'd say yes. I got rid of my car nearly 15 years ago, and rent a van about once a year. It's been a noticeable decline, and driving a few weeks back, I was chiding myself for being terrible and out or practice at first, but after about half an hour realised basically no one around me was driving with particular care or attention.

Motorway driving in particular seems to elude British drivers, who are great at:
Falling asleep in the middle lane.
The fifteen minute overtake.

Because the roads are packed out all the time, all the little errors are amplified to problems. Yes please to retests and I'll have a proper full on Google car yes please

Especially when googlecarbrain gets smart enough to see your journey request and say 'no you selfish lazy ****er get the bus or walk' 😀

Antics from Today

Range Rover little thing driven by a wannabe WAG blatantly saw me on the roundabout and pulled out regardless forcing me to slam on.

NSL country road I didn't know, just following Sat Nav, I'm doing 40 - 45 as its narrow, downhill, windy get overtook by a Vivaro and forced onto the grass as another van was coming the other way. The other van had to swerve towards the stone wall.

50 mph on the motorway in heavy traffic, no one going any faster, some guy right up my back bumper screaming at me to get a move on. Guess the fact I'd actually left a decent gap between myself and the car in front upset him. Yes I was in lane 1 at the time.

Forgot about the 55mph hypermilers, didn't realise how f*****g annoying they are until I started driving limited trucks. They drop to 50, you pull out and start overtaking. They realise they're not doing 55 so speed up and then you're stuck. If you lift off and drop behind they drop back to 50 and it all starts again 👿

If you stay at 50 you get yelled at by your boss for running late so all trucks go at 56 everywhere doing multi-mile overtaking. My record is 2 miles on a motorway (at night!) but you hear and see ones going on for a good 5 or 6 minutes, especially lorry vs lorry 😆

My record is 2 miles on a motorway (at night!) but you hear and see ones going on for a good 5 or 6 minutes, especially lorry vs lorry

Yes what the hell is the point of this - truck overtaking truck overtakes on dual carriageway? Goes on for miles sometimes and royally pisses off and delays everyone else behind in the process - all to acheive an extra 0.5mph!!!

[quote=agent007 ]VW polo on the A14 doing approx 55mph last week with a truck doing 56mph trying to get past it in the right hand lane. Took about 3 miles to complete the overtake. Not sure who's more selfish or ignorant in that case, the car or the truck driver.

That's quite easy. It's perfectly legal, and not really at all unreasonable to drive at 55mph on a DC. Doing a quick calc, if it really was 3 minutes, then if we're allowing a 2s gap when the truck pulls out and 2s gap when it pulls back in that's 100m, so a total of 120m in 3 minutes including the vehicle lengths is just under 1.5mph. In reality I doubt that big gaps were left, so it's likely the differential was <1mph. If the truck had stayed behind the car for the whole length of the A14 that's 2 minutes it would have lost.

Trucks have about 14 gears each coveting a very small range. They need to keep at a constant speed or end up going up and down the gears which is a real pain. Cut them some slack

That's fine Charlie - just as easy for them to stick to 55 as bouncing of the limiter at 56.

The thing is, I tend to like to "make progress" when driving, but I'd not be at all bothered about being stuck behind somebody doing 59mph on a single carriageway road.

IMO they should "pick" on drivers who've been given points or involved in any crash (unless demonstrably not at fault). 2 options, no idea which is more practicable but cost irrelevant as I'd make them or their insurer pay:

1) mandatory retest

or

2) fitting of a black box accelerometer thingy like some insurers supposedly offer to teenagers. Too much sharp acceleration/deceleration/swerving = loss of licence for a period.

Talking of overtaking, worst I ever had was being stuck for miles on a rural road behind an old codger doing 35 whilst I'm behind him towing a caravan. I can see a long line of cars behind no doubt blaming me for the hold up. Come to a short stretch of dual carriageway so I overtake him, he then floors it, overtakes me and squeezes in just before the end of the dual carriageway and drops back to 35! The memory still makes me seethe!

Insurance companies as a group to fund a dashcam for every customer (sheer volume probably means cost ~£15/unit.

Any accident requires dash cam footage from both vehicles - if any doubt then vehicle with missing footage presumed at fault. Camera includes GPS to record speed (only released in event of a claim).

Problem solved.

Sooner the better for that too, flaperon - really must get round to sorting a dashcam for my car at least. Black box requirements for insurance for young drivers is certainly one of the more positive things to happen, which should also be made more widespread (though I guess the reasons for older drivers having accidents wouldn't tend to be picked up in quite the same way). Lots we can do with technology which we aren't.

You can tell how sh**e a lot of drivers are on the motorway - as soon as they see anything that resembles a police car up ahead, they slam on their brakes in panic, as they've become so used to breaking the law (e.g driving over the speed limit everywhere they go) they only know who to react at the last moment, and out of selfishness, don't do anything preventative or considerate. This might not be a new thing, but it certainly feels like it's getting worse.

Same with people who drive close to cyclists at 40mph, and slam their brakes on immediately afterwards if they think there's a speed camera up ahead - it's pure selfishness, to the point where the only thing that matters is not getting a fine/license points.

Trucks have about 14 gears each coveting a very small range. They need to keep at a constant speed or end up going up and down the gears which is a real pain. Cut them some slack

So what's more of a pain, asking a single truck to travel at 0.5mph off it's maximum limited speed by simply sitting behind another truck, or having two trucks, one slowly grinding its way past the other over several miles and holding up 20-30 cars in the process?

2) fitting of a black box accelerator thingy like some insurers supposedly offer to teenagers. Too much sharp acceleration/deceleration/swerving = loss of license for a period.

Absolute bull, a black box can't tell whether you're texting, whether or not you've had a drink, whether or not you're in the appropriate lane, whether you cut someone up or not, whether you tailgate, whether your observation skills are up to scratch. Safe driving is so much more than the actual dynamics of the vehicle in question. Sometimes its prudent to use the full performance of your vehicle (in a planned way, not a reactionary way) to prevent a potentially dangerous situation developing into a close call or accident.

Furthermore I had to have a word with my young nephew after he tried to join the motorway at 40mph at the end of the sliproad the other week. His reasoning, well as a new driver the slower he accelerated then the cheaper his insurance!

Further compulsory training for all drivers every few years and more police on the roads monitoring driving standards are the only ways to significantly improve safety.

Agent - take it you've never worked in haulage then? Tacho readouts are the bane of ever drivers life, usually for all the wrong reasons (one company I know of has theirs set to add a minute onto driving time every time they stop). Minutes count.

And you absolutely could tell tailgating from a black box, the constant dabbing on the brakes is a dead giveaway.

Sadly I do agree that your nephew was probably correct in his assumptions though not their application. Swift acceleration with correct use if gears should be fine in the real world.

Tailgating is not going to make others drive faster.

Had someone on my rear while I was driving at 30-32mph in a 30mph - so I'm speeding!

After being beeped repeatedly I pulled over and went up to other car and asked the old lady in a Land Rover what was wrong and she called the Police.

I waited and explained to the Police. She told them I was a liar till I played my dash and rear cams which they had a word with her as I drove off lol.

I made a mistake on an unfamiliar roundabout recently and caused someone else grief However they could have chosen to brake and avoid what was obviously developing in front. But they didn't. They kept coming even after they reacted. They also chased me and threatened me despite apologies. Most people would have got on with their lives but this guy was proper crazy and looking for a fight which he didn't get. It's taken me about three days to recover.

Glad to see Wolverhampton got a mention on the first page. Approaching the M6 today on the Black Country Route, 3 cars on the outside lane. 1st sitting at about the speed limit for ages in the outside lane, car behind tailgating with full beams and fog lights on, 3rd car undertakes and cuts up car 1 (with only a tap of the indicator when already swerving right) to save getting boxed in by the car in front of me on the inside lane.

I hate driving around the area now I moved to Shropshire !

As for autonomous cars, when the war against cyber fraud and hackers has been won then yes most certainly, however I'd hate to think of what carnage could be inflicted in revenge for a drone strike on an ISIS leader.

Insurance companies as a group to fund a dashcam for every customer (sheer volume probably means cost ~£15/unit.

Any accident requires dash cam footage from both vehicles - if any doubt then vehicle with missing footage presumed at fault. Camera includes GPS to record speed (only released in event of a claim).

Problem solved.

I quite like the idea...but is it really in the insurance / claims management / ambulance chasing industry to have us all drive better? Surely every bump generates a load of cash through the chain.