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I did wonder if it was an overzealous HR person! Idiots
OP sounds like a sensible person, who has s good understanding of cultural sensitivity (and backgrounds) and understanding when behaviours are unacceptable (regardless of culture) and when there is a balance between the two.
I wonder if the over zealous HR type who made the outright ban comment (which is wrong IMO for all the reasons already mentioned) is trying to establish a harder line for less sensible people in the organisation as a way to improve nationality discrimination and stereotyping.
Seems like trying to simplify the nuanced intelligent thought process made by OP into a "nope can't say that" because its much much simpler for them to understand or explain to less 'culturally sensitive' team mates
ah. So conversation in the first post was with an HR person trying to address a complaint thinking focus on nationality was not the best tack (my possibly generous interpretation). No wonder it sounded double dutch.
Where there are Dutch people there’s a party.
And you're not invited. Spent 4 years in NL and was NEVER invited to a Dutch person's home. Maybe it was my table manners they didn't like ...
Turns out I might be Dutch.
I did wonder if it was an overzealous HR person! Idiots
And what does that make the person who complained to HR rather than just talk to Willem ?
The HR person is doing their job, Willem is doing his job rather well apparently and someone took a personal grudge to HR. We need to know more about that person to be objective and in what context they work together.
From what I found a provocative opening presentation of the issue things have become a reasonable debate. 🙂
Both my dad and his mum were from/born in Belgium. My wife thinks whenever my family get together we argue and are rude to each other. Reading this thread explains alot!
given that HR are involved and have said you must not use nationality in discussions means IMO you need to follow HRs lead on that but it does limit your options somewhat. Me and t'missus disagree tho - she thinks nationality should not be mentioned
Turns out I might be Dutch.
😀
I often wish our work culture was more like the Dutch people I've encountered. Saying what you mean, surely that's just sensible? Nuance can easily be misinterpreted.
I so agree superficial. I never get hints nor pick up on subtle social clues. I do ask people to tell me straight and that I will not be offended if they do
As a manager, this culture of ‘everyone has to fit in and conform’ is actually a problem to me. We want different people with different skills, and experiences. If we only recruit or retain people that are like us i think the organisation is worse for it.
I agree with the main thrust of this however any organisation has a culture and there is a bandwidth of accepted behaviours which help hold the team together. Somebody who acts outside these won't be able to function properly and will disrupt others.
The simple answer is you tackle the behaviours, don't make allowances based on national stereotypes, you don't need to reference them, you employ an individual for their talents not for their national and cultural background.
The person complaining may need address their behaviours and learn to manage interactions better as well.
Turn it around. Imagine if you were going abroad, how would you want to be treated?
"Ah yes, molgrips does that British thing where they don't say what they mean - you have to try and interpret when listening to him"
"Meh, you can say what you like about molgrips in French, Brits only ever speak English so he won't understand."
"He probably hates us because Brits hate foreigners - Cromwell/Clive/Rhodes (delete as appropriate)"
The Dutch are quite special. I had a Dutch boss for 10 years ( in a Dutch/Swiss) - who was very direct. Once you get used to it, it is fine.
The interesting thing with the Dutch is that you cannot be direct back to them - or else they get very upset. Mostly they have thin skins ...
Just tell him you don't like the directness - and move on ....
If you don't like the Dutch 'tude, avoid the Swiss ...
The interesting thing with the Dutch is that you cannot be direct back to them – or else they get very upset. Mostly they have thin skins …
Yes, exactly this, I have noticed this weird contradiction also!!
What is lacking here is cultural intelligence. If you trust each other then you can ask “Did I say something wrong there?” rather than imposing your own cultural view on to a situation. If you react in a way that is characterised by “That’s not what we do here” then you are going to get in to conflict.
When you work with different cultures then you both have to learn what is considered normal on both sides and then apply that to the situation. A challenge can still be made, but as long as there is trust and understanding then checking somebody who had been inappropriate is a lot easier than taking offence at something where there was no attempt to do so.
A lot of times when we are dealing with situations in our own language when the other person is using their second language this situation is amplified. This can be worse for native English speakers who make assumptions all the time about nuanced phrases that can be taken so many ways. You never lose out just checking your own actions first as the other party sees you are trying to understand, but if you call somebody out for “being Dutch” almost all the time you are starting from the weaker position and have probably not understood something right. The further you get away from your own culture the worse this misunderstanding can get.
The bottom line is not to take offence, use it as a starting point for a conversation where both parties learn how each other communicates.
I don't know why it would be worse for Native English speakers, other languages are just as nuanced. You can play games in any language you wish. You can be reasonable and kind or an arse, your choice.
What I'm learning from this discussion is that everyone else is normal and it's the Brits that are fannies.
The Dutch are also special in that when they arrive at a place to camp for 2,3,4 weeks etc. they tend to congregate in groups and their tents/caravans/mobilehomes are stuffed to the gills with Dutch produce. This is an almost British thing to do in it's weirdness in that assuming you can't get decent produce away from home.
However this is also partnered with an attitude of not spending any money whilst in that lovely French/Austrian/Croatian village. Nice but mad, direct, party loving, hard drinking/smoking and miserly is often how they are thought of. On the other hand the Brits and Germans are also mad but at least when they roll into town they spend lots of cash so the bars and restaurants are happy (although probably not happy with the way we butcher their language and get drunk).
We're all a bit weird but the Dutch are extra special. Don't get me stated on hard and soft "G".
🤦♂️
Alternatively you could view his workplace behaviours as a failure to adapt to the organisational culture
Every workplace has one, they vary, you either fit within the expected parameters or you don’t
...
any organisation has a culture and there is a bandwidth of accepted behaviours which help hold the team together. Somebody who acts outside these won’t be able to function properly and will disrupt others.
You need to be a little bit careful here though. You're assuming that the existent culture is correct because Numbers, and that's a dangerous game to be playing. "Oh, we can't make Jenny a team leader, the lads on the floor won't take orders from a woman". And a hundred other scenarios where if your face doesn't fit it's actually the culture that needs to change.
It's a difficult one for sure. Different cultures are culturally different, who knew. A friend of mine used to work for a Japanese company (in the UK) and part of his training was lessons on Japanese culture. The business card example mentioned above was one he told me about, there's a whole ritual where you have to look at the card, then the person, then the card again, to demonstrate that you'd associated the details with their face. Going "ta!" and shoving it straight into your back pocket would be the height of rudeness.
Should they instead have just gone "well, that's the way Brits are"? There's an argument in favour of this for sure, especially as they were a UK branch. But what then if they have prospective clients coming over from Japan for the first time, a simple social faux pas with a business card could have just cost them a multi-million pound deal.
I suppose the solution is a bit of give and take on both sides.
I suppose the solution is a bit of give and take on both sides.
What sort of talk is that?
Sorry, what was I thinking. Hoof in the slats, with clogs on.
I met a Dutch fella this morning.
Picking up some flowers for Mother's day, he was delivering to the florist.
A very jolly and friendly chap, we spoke about mother's day and how it's on a different day in Holland.
He had a HUGE lorry packed full of boxes of flowers, but he was more than happy to take the florist's boxes back after she unpacket them..... lord knows how he was going find room for them ??
Sorry, as you were.
I work with Germans, French, Koreans, Americans, all sorts. To be honest you learn that the best thing to do is to try to hear what they are saying, don’t take stuff personally and reflect back to them what you feel has been said. Talking about cultural differences is fine and a key part of our team building. Equally being respectful of others as individuals is critical too.
I worked for the Dutch parent company of the UK arm of DAEL Telecom. myself and 4 other lads got sent out for "training" when it was basically slave labour and getting beasted with abysmal health and safety for 4 months, and we all absolutely hated the Dutch by the time we left.
The poles were fine and the Russians were drunk and always after a Brawl.
I was about 42yrs old the other lads were 25ish 2 from Yorkshire and 2 from near Brighton.
We were fairly murderous by the end of our "training" and none of us intended to ever visit again.