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Really feel for those with families and work commintments that put them in close proximity to others for extended periods. As a singĺe occupant and work that can easily be done whilst keeping social distance protocols mmy life a lot easier than for many.
Never listened to gov't advice, started wearing a mask in shops/ confined spaces end of March, wash and sanitised my hands. That's about it really. Met with family 'bubble' for the 1st time in 6 months a couple of weeks back and the occasional meet up with friends outside. Like stumpyjohn, I believe the highest risk of contagion involves being in close proximity to a carrier for 15 minutes or so, so avoid that with the sole exception of meeting up with the family.
Given that outbreaks and local locdowns haven't evolved into the exponential spreading of the virus that we've seen elsewhere recently Id say most people are being reasonable. There's a few morons about for sure but so far not enough to have an exponential affect on the numbers.
We’re still doing it.
It's not doing any harm but it almost certainly is doing nothing to protect you (however as this is science not politics nothing is 100%). Look at the risk.
1. Chances of the post having come into contact with any Covid Virus - low.
2. Chances of it being a high dose contact if it has - low.
3. Chances of the virus still being viable on paper after 24 hours - low (probably a bit higher for plastics and glass, but still pretty low).
4. Chances of any remaining live virus being a significantly high viral load to infect you - low.
5. Chances of you transferring enough viral load onto your hands - low.
6. Chances of you transferring enough virus from your hands to your face - low.
7. Chances of enough virus entering your body - low.
So chances of infection through this route - negligible.
Even being sat in a crowded pub at the moment, the chance of getting infected is low, the number of infected people in the population is low, but if there is someone infected you stand a reasonable chance of getting it as all the other risks associated with the transmission path are fairly high. However if people continue to congregate that low level of infection in the population will ramp up exponentially and when it gets to levels people notice again it'll be too late. Personally I'm not going out as much as I used to (and I'm wearing a mask, hand sanitiding, WFH) not because I'm worried about getting it, but because I don't want it to become prevalent in the community again. That's the attitude we all need at the moment, risks to most of us are low but they won't be in future if current behaviour continues. This will be massively compounded when schools go back. My view is shut pubs, restaurants, beauty salons and indoor leisure activities again to offset the additional mixing caused by schools reopening, divert all furlough money etc. into these sectors to help them stay shut.
It’s not doing any harm but it almost certainly is doing nothing to protect you (however as this is science not politics nothing is 100%). Look at the risk.
1. Chances of the post having come into contact with any Covid Virus – low.
2. Chances of it being a high dose contact if it has – low.
3. Chances of the virus still being viable on paper after 24 hours – low (probably a bit higher for plastics and glass, but still pretty low).
4. Chances of any remaining live virus being a significantly high viral load to infect you – low.
5. Chances of you transferring enough viral load onto your hands – low.
6. Chances of you transferring enough virus from your hands to your face – low.
7. Chances of enough virus entering your body – low.So chances of infection through this route – negligible.
I'm not sure how you get to 1 ...
The postie is delivering to 2000 houses in a run ... many have gates etc. the postie needs to touch.
Skipping 2 for now...
So 24 hours is irrelevant when the round is a few hours.
back to 2 ... our postie has specific instructions to post the free paper or deliver by hand so he has to do EVERY house... so what is a significant dose when you're thumbing through a news paper and sticking your thumb in your mouth?
Personally I’m not going out as much as I used to (and I’m wearing a mask, hand sanitiding, WFH) not because I’m worried about getting it, but because I don’t want it to become prevalent in the community again. That’s the attitude we all need at the moment, risks to most of us are low but they won’t be in future if current behaviour continues. This will be massively compounded when schools go back.
All bets are off ... there is really no point taking any steps at all beyond passing it to a vulnerable person once schools go back.
Much as I don't want to be pulled into supporting herd immunity by the back door there really is no other option.
I really do wish folk would stop using Return to School as an excuse for not taking other preventative measures. The risks are cumulative. Being careful about everything else we do is what makes Return to School possible.
Exactly.
Mrs_oab is back teaching. That doesn't mean we're back at a pub, not washing hands and abandoning face masks.
With a 4 yo, 2 yo and 9 week old and all the kids clubs suspended we see virtually no one anyway, plus I still work from home. Like a lot of people weve felt more fed up recently and tbh have broken guidance to see people and lift mood, partly as we expect to be beck in lockdown as we head into winter and we get the feeling the government are almost promoting a, ' make hay while the sunshines' effort. So the girls did a (very well run) ballet class, we've taken them to playgrounds half a dozen times for the first time since February (although we've tried to be on other equipment to others, but isn't always possible), we've done 'eat out to help out' 3 times and we've visited both sets of grand parents. We do still apply sanitiser and regular hand washing and wear masks on the rare occasions we are in a shop. However we all picked up a small snuffly cold last week so which makes it very clear to me how difficult it is to do anything 'safely'. Safe, no, lower risk.... Maybe. Eldest starts school and middle one nursery next week. I've a new job and may well be in the office a few times a week. I'm nervous about the winter and expect to be back in lockdown. I'm not sure when exactly but it feels unlikely that we will avoid a second wave.
Scotroutes,
The risks are indeed cumulative. Every little helps. Altering your behaviour because others have changed theirs is not going to protect you or others. There is no upside to this approach, It is simply lazy.
The science eludes us with this one and you can't rationalise it away. Not having the intelligence to outwit the virus I proceed with and air of superstition. I don't care about being right I just don't want to be wrong. So again, whatever we do just remember that every little helps.
Stumpyjohn,
What you're suggesting is a proportional and managed approach, recognising the cumulative and exponential nature of the threat. This whole story has pitched the liberties against the lockdowners, It never had to be this way. Adopting hygiene and mask protocols at a much earlier stage could have had a much less detrimental effect on the economy (and death count). Opening and closing specific sectors at different times according to percieved risk would have provided better data as to how and where the virus was spreading and both economic support and medical care could have been delivered in a less wasteful way. there's nothing in what you say that couldn't have been implemented six months ago.
Stevextc
1. Because very few people have it, and many of those will have symptoms and not be at work.
And were back to catching it off gates again, you're not a farmer are you? Its not Novichok, it's not high transmissible through touch, it doesnt last long outside, UV breaks it down. The critical point is every time it is transferred surface to surface it's diluted, multiple transfers will result in it being diluted to ineffectual levels, if this wasn't the case it would have ripped through the population by now.
Significant dose to catch it thumbing the paper and licking your thumb, huge, it won't last seconds in your mouth or digestive track, touch transference is through the nasal membranes and eyes.
Risk assessment is all about proportionality, understanding the mechanisms and weighing the risk vs hazard severity vs impact to daily living. This is something the UK population is terrible at, everyone wants absolutes and are quite happy to get all worked up about obscure risks whilst ignoring the really big ones everyday, like smoking, drinking, driving, drugs, not exercising, being overweight, not wearing a seatbelt, etc.
Inkster, fully agree, I was talking about moving forward, I don't think hospitality should have reopened at all, pubs, cinemas, restaurants, are all much higher risks for transmission than your friendly postie. Furlough scheme was great to start, allowed businesses to send people home immediately while they adjusted, initially it wasn't about saving jobs it was making sure everyone stayed at home. It should gave started to morph into long term support for industries that couldn't adapt safely back in May, at that point retail, manufacturing, office workers had put in place mechanisms to allow work to continue, but no Boris likes a pint and prematurely thought he had got Covid done, it was only a couple of weeks ago he was saying it will all be over by Christmas, we won't have a vaccine until the new year and it might not be effective.
Currently doing our best. Handwashing on entering the house. Masks where appropriate. Giving other people 2m if at all possible. Not mixing much.
But the kids are going back to school, so I think it is going to be a waste of time.
Remember back at the start? We were talking about a handful of identified individuals, and now we are looking at 41.5k deaths. This thing is (as we know) highly infectious and it keeps you in circulation long enough to spread it to enough people before you even know you have it. Schools going back is, in my opinion, the right thing to do. But wave 2 is coming.
But the kids are going back to school, so I think it is going to be a waste of time.
See my previous post.
Quarantining your mail for several days on the basis of your postie possibly being a virus super spreader from opening gates on his round sounds like top drawer paranoia / lunacy to me.
The other thread on masks for school kids is even more worrying , which such vocal support of making minors wear soggy grubby muzzles and the growth in fear of human / social interaction that will come with it I find very concerning but hardly surprising given the hand wringing nature of this forums regulars.
As a self employed construction worker I never had the option of working from home , or benefit from furlough paid holidays , state handouts & employment protection that many on here seem to enjoy , so i've had to work through lockdown on the same dirty , poorly sanitised building sites that I have worked on for the last 20 years so my outlook on the risks and hazards posed from this pandemic , or anything else for that matter , are probably more grounded than those that have simply shut themselves away for the last 5 months.
As such I feel absolutely no concern whatsoever in going to the pub on friday nights and booking a trip abroad next month.
Hiding behind the curtains indefinitely in fear of a virus that has a survival rate of around 99.5% and that cant possibly be stopped or eradicated anyway just doesn't fit in with my over-riding philosophy of life , you only get 1 chance to live so best not to waste a single day living in fear otherwise all your doing is waiting around to die.
So I only pay the the most basic lip service to the official advice / restrictions and go about my day as normal because what I hear from the Gov't & media these days is mostly bollocks.
Those in shock from reading my comments may wish to consider a sit down with a cup of tea.
See my previous post.
Agreed. I'm not changing my approach because the kids are going back to school. Every interaction (or potential interaction) is an opportunity to do the right thing, and I am going to continue to do the right thing.
Kids going back raises the risk, but I'm not a toddler (or Dominic Cumstains), I know it doesn't mean we can just throw caution to the wind.
Those in shock from reading my comments may wish to consider a sit down with a cup of tea.
Maybe, but it sure as hell won't be within two metres of you.
Can anyone suggest a Covid related reason for this?
Evenings. Alcohol. Only vague distancing possible. Enough said.
Look at the risk.
The risk, each time, is vanishingly small. Just like every other risk. It’s about minimising the number of all those tiny risks. Over the course of 18 months, they soon add up. You can no nothing, and be lucky. You can try and do everything, and be unlucky. But minimising the number of chances to become a link in the chain that leads to the death of a loved one or stranger is informing all my behaviour, still.
Much as I don’t want to be pulled into supporting herd immunity by the back door there really is no other option.
Herd immunity by exposure isn’t going to happen. There are clearly other options. A quick virtual tour of countries around the world will show you some.
I'm following and/or going above and beyond the advice.
I've lost close family, another family member went to a funeral and caught it, had 4 weeks in ICU and I understand he is struggling now (mid 40s).
A close friends dad spend 10 weeks in ICU and against all odds survived. He has gone from being independent and living life to someone coming in 4 times a day to help wipe his arse.
I know plenty who have not changed what they have done throughout all of this. Just hope they don't live to regret it, or not.
Some of us are not following the 'rules' because we recognise that the risk of serious illness/death is minuscule and we don't need the government to tell us how to live our lives. Have you looked at a graph for the death rate recently? It's a joke. I'm far more likely to die crossing a roundabout on my bike.
Someone else who doesn't understand Cause and Effect
Have you looked at a graph for the death rate recently? It’s a joke. I’m far more likely to die crossing a roundabout on my bike.
Just as relevant, have a look at hospitalisation rates, and try to work out why we’re being told about positive tests and not how many people actually have symptoms.
@Jamz "I'm alright Jack"
I think it's a similar line to the footballers in Aberdeen. I suspect the 350 they infected may have a different view.
Is anyone else still following Covid advice?
Yes, I do.
Most of my friends do too as they have medical condition.
Yes. Mostly because I'm a carer for my mum, partly because I'm antisocial anyway, and I suppose it helps that I'm in Scotland so there's less things going EVERYTHING IS FINE.
Does anyone seriously want to eat in an enclosed restaurant?
Something on German TV the other day saying that enclosed spaces, be that bar, restaurant, train, department store, etc... are the places where you are most at risk. Something to do with the concentration of aerosols.
You're less likely to catch anything, be that covid or common flu, whilst being outside than you are in an enclosed space.
I've not been sat inside a restaurant or bar since March.
I've been sat outside, but really don't fancy sitting for an extended period in an enclosed space.
we don’t need the government to tell us how to live our lives
I hope you don’t drive.
Boombang (sorry to hear you’ve been touched so much by this already) and others make an important point… concentrating on the death figures, especially now they only include people dying in the first four weeks after infection, ignores all those with poor or very poor health outcomes from the virus… this could lead to complacency.
Why should I follow it, its just a hoax to cover up child trafficking.
For governments to control us.
For businesses to profit from.
Etc etc, apparently. I read some stories on what people believe its unreal.
Anyway back to thread, sort of, like others said use common sense about it. But not religiously to the letter of the laws.
brownsauce, you wrote...
as a self employed construction worker I never had the option of working from home , or benefit from furlough paid holidays , state handouts & employment protection that many on here seem to enjoy , so i’ve had to work through lockdown on the same dirty , poorly sanitised building sites that I have worked on for the last 20 years
You chose to be self-emloyed and have, therefore, chosen to accept whatever that entails.
It certainly doesn't give you a special level of wisdom or insight; nor does it give you a right to claim your views of the risk and hazards of CV19 and everything are 'more grounded'
than most others - that is laughable.
Your comments demonstrate nothing more than a lack of understanding and a cavalier attitude.
Paying basic lip service to regs/laws shows absolutely no regard for others.
As you work in construction, I hope you pay more than basic lip service to site regs and H&S legislation.
I'm not going to comment on the negatives in this thread.
Instead, it's heartening to read about those that altered their lives in profound ways even when they are probably at little risk of a bad outcome themselves...Only done in order to try and keep people they will never know or meet safe. My little family for one appreciate it.
I’m far more likely to die crossing a roundabout on my bike.
I checked the other day. Usually approx 5 RTA deaths a day, so twice as likely to die of Covid than on the roads?
(Figures rounded for the hard of thinking)
Mainly. We both WFH. The only bike ride I've done with someone other than a member of my household was one with another couple in mid July, where we stayed outside and distanced the whole time. I've eaten out a few times but again only with OH apart from one day where we met my sister outside at a cafe. We've holidayed but in the UK within 2 hours of home.
The only people who've been inside my house are one other couple (actually in his role as a bike mechanic picking up something I wanted him to work on but they're also friends so he and his OH came over and we had a longer chat) and the guy who came to service the burglar alarm.
A couple of minor non-compliances - an afternoon partly indoors with two other households at my grandmother's house (but all being careful as she's 95). I gave my nephews a lift somewhere as a favour to my sister. And a few (single figures) hugs with family.
As a self employed construction worker I never had the option of working from home , or benefit from furlough paid holidays , state handouts & employment protection that many on here seem to enjoy
Ummmm...
https://www.constructionmanagermagazine.com/what-support-available-self-employed-construction/
Maybe no good because you were massively under-reporting your income for tax purposes? 😛
I checked the other day. Usually approx 5 RTA deaths a day, so twice as likely to die of Covid than on the roads?
So, using your stats in the same way, that’s roughly the same level. As in, you’re not 10x, or a 100x more likely to die of Covid.
So, you are almost as likely to die during your next journey as to catch Covid and die of it.
Well, twice as many people dying of X rather than Y is definitely not 10x or 100x, I'll give you that.
1. Because very few people have it, and many of those will have symptoms and not be at work.
And were back to catching it off gates again, you’re not a farmer are you? Its not Novichok, it’s not high transmissible through touch, it doesnt last long outside, UV breaks it down. The critical point is every time it is transferred surface to surface it’s diluted, multiple transfers will result in it being diluted to ineffectual levels, if this wasn’t the case it would have ripped through the population by now.
Significant dose to catch it thumbing the paper and licking your thumb, huge, it won’t last seconds in your mouth or digestive track, touch transference is through the nasal membranes and eyes.
It's really not very long since the UK was saying it can pretty much only be transmitted through touch...
All my neighbours and 90% of my avenue have gates... (we don't but ?)
All those gates are touched when they taker out the bins ... bins full of all sorts including nappies, tissues etc.
I really do wish folk would stop using Return to School as an excuse for not taking other preventative measures. The risks are cumulative. Being careful about everything else we do is what makes Return to School possible.
Because putting 1000+ kids in a school together and prohibiting them from wearing masks makes as much sense as sending Covid positive patients to nursing homes who didn't even have basic PPE are were actively being prevented buying it.
There really is no need to force kids back, prevent them wearing masks in class or most certainly have them all back at once. Like the care homes they will blame the schools..
The risk, each time, is vanishingly small. Just like every other risk. It’s about minimising the number of all those tiny risks. Over the course of 18 months, they soon add up. You can no nothing, and be lucky. You can try and do everything, and be unlucky. But minimising the number of chances to become a link in the chain that leads to the death of a loved one or stranger is informing all my behaviour, still.
Come Wednesday Jnr is in school... we spent time with Gran and said our goodbyes, perhaps for the last time face to face. Now he has no choice but sit in classes with kids with no masks so short of hosing him down when he comes home the overwhelming risk can't be controlled. OH will be back teaching at primary.
I'm not saying we aren't being careful but we can't visit gran or see many elderly friends once he's back at school.
Herd immunity by exposure isn’t going to happen. There are clearly other options. A quick virtual tour of countries around the world will show you some.
Of course it won't actually work... hence why I'm reluctant to be a part of it but when you have a government dead set on trying anyway it seems pointless fighting it.
Thing is, @brownsauce, it's not (just) about YOU. Your post reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw " If you don't like the way I drive, stay off the sidewalk "
Yes. Only person we saw was wife's best mate - but that was put on hold (Gtr Mcr), although is relaxed where we are next week - good job as MrsF has lined me up to build decking for her mate - been on hold a month.
Not mixing with family, other than socially distanced outside. Been out to eat a few times recently, but only where pre-booked and happy with distancing.
Trying my best to follow guidelines.
Keeping to 2 mtrs where possible,
Washing hands way way more than ever before,
Face coverings in shops,
Staying away from pubs ( no hardship ) etc
Cos both my 88 year old parents are at risk, if they catch it it’ll be me ringing relatives and I don’t want to pass on the bad news
PLUS, working in Pharma research my company has brought a rule in on site that ALL must wear face coverings while inside,
Visitors to site have temperature taken and if above a threshold are not allowed on site at and must leave immediately ... I trust the industry more than the government and would rather be safe than sorry.
Yep. We are. Me, wife and 2 kids all healthy BUT my sister (40, healthy physiotherapist) and a friend (38, fit, shit hot road rider) both had it and were on their respective arses and still not fully right.
On top of that, wife's nan has been shielding.
Are my nuclear family particularly at risk? Probably not. Are we potentially at risk of being asymptomatic and passing it on to someone not do lucky if we don't follow the rules? Quite possibly - I don't want a friend or relative's death or poor health outcome on my conscience thinking my selfish confusion of need and want could have played a part.
Sadly we've got some neighbours, friends and wider family who haven't played fair - that's super frustrating and it's definitely impacted on our viewpoint towards them.
Still following the guidelines here. With over 1700 new cases in the UK today it is getting worse.
To all those not following the guidelines; Rock on and bring on a second wave so I can work from home again please.
The we’ve given up and adopted what we consider to be common sense. The government position is so contradictory and such a shambles. I work in a hospital and for the first 4 months I didn’t need to wear a mask unless you were with patients. Then as the worst of the pandemic passed masked became compulsory in line with guidance! So we were fine for the first 4 months but not now? Also talking to the lead consultant in intensive care gave me a far better insight to the reality than the propaganda.
Yes we wear masks when we should as that’s the right thing to benefit society but the rest of the rules are out if the window
propaganda
What propaganda? From who? Saying what? You’ll need to explain that.
I’m not saying we aren’t being careful but we can’t visit gran or see many elderly friends once he’s back at school.
We’ve had the hard chat with grandparents… no Christmas together and see you next summer… late seventies. It’s fingers crossed and try to stay polite and kind towards those that think their actions this winter have no effect on transmission. I agree with you completely on the way the return to school buildings is being handled… but I’ll leave that to the other threads.
Well, twice as many people dying of X rather than Y is definitely not 10x or 100x, I’ll give you that.
Yeah, that’s the thing about taking stats out of context - anyone can make up any old crap! 😘
Also talking to the lead consultant in intensive care gave me a far better insight to the reality than the propaganda.
I’ve had a few interesting conversations with ICU staff recently, all agreeing with what you’ve said.
@kelvin. Let’s just say the medical advice and the propaganda from Boris haven’t had a lot in common. Face masks were advised against because the government had sold its stockpile so was struggling to get them. The medical advice was wear them. The real risk of catching the disease if your were less than 70 and not in care was very low.
Let’s just say the medical advice and the propaganda from Boris haven’t had a lot in common. Face masks were advised against because the government had sold its stockpile so was struggling to get them. The medical advice was wear them.
Are you talking about in care settings? If so, that’s very much my reading of it as well.
If you’re talking about the general public, it’s not so clear… not pushing mask wearing when everyone was to stay at home made sense… the return to public transport, shared work spaces and places of study was always going to mean mask wearing.
The real risk of catching the disease if your were less than 70 and not in care was very low.
The risk of dying from it you mean? The risk of catching it was reduced by the measures taken… without those measures everyone can “catch the disease” but the odds of that resulting in serious effects reduces the younger you are.
Care homes were truly wrecked by the advice and actions of the government. Those that ignored them and locked down early saved many lives.
Yes we are, people are morons.....more bothered about trying to return to normal as soon as possible and forget COVID when it’s very apparent that it’s very much still about.... then again the more they do, and the way they do it means if we work the opposite way to them we can live quite comfortably and safely.
As far as I’m concerned, whoever wants to flout it can do, so long as I’m nowhere near them or interacting with them That’s fine by me