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Am I being unreasonable in thinking letting a inexperienced 19yr old driver loose in a Boxter is irresponsible? Result car destroyed and passenger a trip to A+E.
Driver showing off put it into a tree, thank god for airbags and good design.
is the car relevant?
i drove like a **** in a nova when I was that age.
Says more about the individual driver than his age, I think. Pretty amazed he could get insurance, though.
/me Drove like an idiot in her dad's Diesel (pre turbo days) Ford Escort across the moors above Otley way too often...
Rachel
At 19 whats it to do with the parent- the driver is an adult. Or was it the parents car?
I'd like to see power restrictions for cars for new drivers same as for motorcyles tho
Yes, you can smash up any car
My brother fired a Rover 100 about 40 feet through the air into a field at about that age. God knows what I'd have done had I access to a car, I could be deadly in a trabant.
given the stats for crashes of males in particular in that age group then yes its irresponsible. Danger to themselves and others. I doubt the car matters that much but why put temptation in front of the young who are most likely to exercise poor judgment and almost certain to have a skill confidence interface?
Not seen them for a while - used to teach this to young adults - 33% of male drivers under 21 write off a car in a crash in the first 2 years iirc.
Not an age thing rachel just a stats thing
Parents car, insured under a trader policy, gender is irrelevant.
I could be deadly in a trabant.
You too?
Years ago I was in a Ford dealership getting spares for my knackered old Fiesta and there was a young guy in there kicking off because his brand new Sierra Sapphire Cosworth (purchased from them) had broken down but they told him he was too young to be allowed one of their courtesy cars. LOL!
Cars don't crash. Drivers do. He may have been driving fine for two years at that age, tbf.
But irresponsible if the lad isn't made to take full financial responsibility.
Also irresponsible for not teaching him that if he'd saved longer and harder he could have had a 911.
At 19 whats it to do with the parent
I do love to get advice from those without kids and who dont drive on what should be the best thing to do with my driving kids
Anymore advice for us ?
Said with friendship but sometimes a thread really does not need your input.
I guess it depends on the previous of the 19 year old - my wife was allowed to drive her dad's Saab Aero 95 (easily as quick as some Porsches) at that age as she was (and remains) entirely sensible. But her brother wasn't allowed near any of their cars at the same age....
is the car relevant?
Of course the car is relevant. You can certainly drive like an ass in any car, but if the car is particularly responsive/fast then you are going to be liable to drive it at the edge of its abilities.
Pushing a Toyota Yaris is stupid and dangerous, but pushing a Porsche Boxster is extra stupid and dangerous - commensurate with the car's own capacity.
but if the car is particularly responsive/fast then you are going to be liable to drive it at the edge of its abilities.
i think its far more likely at the age of 19 that your going to be driving a shit car past the edge of its abilities and yours.
Parents car, insured under a trader policy,
Just spotted that. As a former claims manager I'd be all over that, checking ownership, employment and policy terms, with a view to getting family/personal use heavily restricted.
I'd hope the Police are all over it as well. Used to see horrendous abuse of trader policies, and I know extended family in the trade still do.
[i] 33% of male drivers under 21 write off a car in a crash in the first 2 years iirc.[/i]
I did. Opel Manta, bought and insured with my own money. It's not about the car or who paid for it, it's about the driver's ability to exercise good judgement.
[quote=johndoh ]I guess it depends on the previous of the 19 year old - my wife was allowed to drive her dad's Saab Aero 95 (easily as quick as some Porsches) at that age as she was (and remains) entirely sensible. But her brother wasn't allowed near any of their cars at the same age....
Might be as powerful in terms of the engine, but a front wheel drive car massively biased to understeer isn't really the same as mid engined sports car. 😆
the parents provide the rope, it's up to the 'child' to decide what to do with it.......the longer the rope however, the more likely disaster ensues! 😀
Junkyard - hence I put "or was it the parents car?" at 19 I had left home for 3 years and was no longer under my parents control.
a front wheel drive car massively biased to understeer isn't really the same as mid engined sports car.
Just changes which tree they hit, not whether they hit a tree.
Rachel
I'd hope the Police are all over it as well. Used to see horrendous abuse of trader policies, and I know extended family in the trade still do.
The 19 year old may work in the family business and he may have been working....
Might be as powerful in terms of the engine, but a front wheel drive car massively biased to understeer isn't really the same as mid engined sports car.
Perhaps, but I was merely making a point about the irresponsibility (or not) of allowing a particular 19 year old drive such a car. I am sure the father in law would have allowed her to drive his Porsche had he owned one. He did have a Westfield that would leave almost any Porsche for dead (at least to about 70 mph anyway because of the way it was geared). She wasn't allowed in that. LOL
a front wheel drive car massively biased to understeer isn't really the same as mid engined sports car.
Just changes whether they hit the tree head on or sideways/ backwards.
walked or shoved 😉19 I had left home for 3 years and was no longer under my parents control.
Me too actually.
true most jobs require a boxster for a 19 year old to do their duties and its really unlikely they were trying to avoid insurance premiumsThe 19 year old may work in the family business and he may have been working.
true most jobs require a boxster for a 19 year old to do their duties and its really unlikely they were trying to avoid insurance premiums
He could have a business selling cars.
He could have a business valeting premium cars.
He could have a business hiring out specialist cars.
He could have a business doing track days.
Etc.
[quote=perchypanther ]Just changes whether they hit the tree head on or sideways/ backwards.
Now go drive them both quickly on a cold damp road and tell me that again 😆
The car is irrelevant.
He wont make the same mistake again
motor trade insurance policies are often tpft, and even if they are comprehensive they have a huge excess to avoid claims for little carpark scrapes etc. I suspect the parents have learned their lesson this time too (if in fact they did let him out, and they're not just covering for him so he doesn't get a twoc charge)
@johndoh its possible and we can all make up scenarios that are plausible However i would be surprised if this scenario exists for any other reason that he is the son of the business and policy owner.
I think you will struggle to find another unrelated 19 year old employee anywhere* where there is a similar arrangement.
* F1 😉
Working in insurance also, motor trader policies are by far the most abused policies going, i know of quite a few insurers that no longer accept motor trade work. Far to easy for one person to take out a single policy that allows them and family to drive pretty much any car, an easy way for them to drive cars such as the Porsche. Its only when they have an accident and you ask them for proof of Motor trade activity you find them once sold a single Fiesta for £100 cash in hand!
If he is tpft, let's hope it wasn't a customers car.
He wont make the same mistake again
One would hope.
When I was a lad the chap over the road was a Porsche addict. His tally was over ten written off before he "finally got the hang of them" and bought a lightweight RSR...
Exactly. Nobody under 70 should be allowed to drive a car with more than 35 bhp.
[url= http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/technology/aussie-crashes-10-million-mclaren-f1-in-nz/news-story/29ba156d30ff7e4c409b0e93b1b98649 ]What were his mum and dad thinking?[/url]
When I was at school in the mid/late 80's the parents of some kids were trying to out-do each other on 18th birthday presents. A couple of kids ( and they were still very much kids ) got RS Escorts.
One wonders what goes through a parents mind when their need to show off takes precedence over keeping their children from being maimed. One was.
Young people lack the maturity and experience to handle fast cars, they can get you into far more trouble much quicker than an average car. Giving a child a Porsche to play with is incredibly poor parenting.
Kid at my school got a red Renault 5 gt turbo for his 17 birthday and was insured for the day on his dad's Bentley.
Not long after he broke his leg crashing into the armco at spa.
[s]Young[/s][b]most[/b] people lack the maturity and experience to handle fast cars, they can get you into far more trouble much quicker than an average car.
fixed that for you...
Is this about that old Tom Cruise film?
At age 20 I crashed a 1300cc Escort into a tree and had a trip to A&E. Must be the parents' fault - because at about the same age my Dad crashed his Dad's Cresta into a tree. It's hereditary. And you learn. I've not done anything like that again.
When I was at school, there was a lad who failed his car test but got his bike licence, his M&D bought him a brand new CBR600. Don't think he crashed it but even at the time it seemed incredibly reckless, let alone with the hindsight of being older.
I think it's fairly irresponsible. Rachel was bang on suggesting that the longer the rope, the more chance there is they'll hang themselves with it.
Getting rid of the metaphors, whilst you can kill yourself and others at 50mph, you're more likely to do so at 150mph and if the temptation's there, younger kids are more likely to try it.
I drove at 120mph last summer. Empty, dry motorway and wanted to see my sick (D&V, no heart-wrenching excuse) son. Being older, I'd thought about the maximum speed, other people etc as well as a few years experience telling me that faster would have been [s]more[/s] stupid. If I'd had such a fast car at 19 I'm fairly sure I'd have found frequent reasons to get somewhere quickly.
Please hide this thread, I have three boys who will be driving over the next 2-5 years. 🙁
Irresponsible? Possibly, possibly not. This kid could have been driving go karts from the age of 5, have more experience of handling cars than most of the people on this forum and could have been unlucky on the day. Alternatively, he may only have been driving for a matter of months and had a complete error of judgement taking a car out that could get him into a lot of trouble, very quickly.
Saying the car doesn't matter is nonsense. I know from bitter experience.
Of course it's irresponsible. I could barely control my dad's 1.4 nissan sunny when I passed my test, let alone something with a proper engine in it.
A lad in my year in 6th form was given a golf GTI by his proud dad on his 18th. A month later he killed a pensioner on a zebra crossing and his girlfriend who was unfortunately in the passenger seat when the pensioner came through the windscreen. He spent 5 years inside for death by dangerous driving. They should have put his dad inside too.
About as irresponsible as giving same person a dodgy old car with weak tyre treads, dodgy breaks etc...they both can kill/do damage.
If the authorities wish to install a GPS device that prevents my car doing more than the speed limit I'll happily pay for the privilege. You don't buy a Boxter if you intend to respect the Highway code all the time.
It's political suicide to get serious about making cars properly safe which really means making them slower. Enough people want to drive dangerously for road safety to be a vote loser. Then there are the motor lobbies putting pressure on politicians the world over.
At 19 whats it to do with the parent- the driver is an adult. Or was it the parents car?
You don't need to break the speed limit to get in trouble in a car like a Boxster.
albeit an adult who is unlikely to be able to afford a boxter and more likely to go through a series of lower powered cars firstAt 19 whats it to do with the parent- the driver is an adult
Is the answer I think you were looking for
Oh, and one more story, from my mate who's a teacher.
16yo lad, parents divorced, lived with Mum, who forbade him from having a scooter. Dad, to spite Mum, bought lad a scooter. Lad fell off scooter & died.
Awkward.
albeit an adult who is unlikely to be able to afford a boxter and more likely to go through a series of lower powered cars first
They can be bought for a few thousand. At 19 he may well be living at home so have spare income.
Perhaps not, but it would be a lot harder in a Boxter that suddenly went quiet and stopped accelerating at 30 mph in town. Limiting trucks has cut accidents both tin number and severity, I'm absolutely certain limiting cars would do too.You don't need to break the speed limit to get in trouble in a car like a Boxster.
Edukator - but political suicide, as someone said.
Depends on the kid and his history, at 19 I had access to lots of peoples cars as an apprentice mechanic, I was legally allowed to take any car I'd worked on for post work road tests (including pre delivery inspections of brand new cars), while most of the cars where run of the mill family things every now and then it was something nice, occasional Cosworth (we were a Ford dealer), at times a local businessman's Aston (old thing but nice) and a few Porsches (usually trade ins).
Has anyone actually proved that the accident was anything to do with the age or experience of the driver?
Even being broadly libertarian, I would be in favour of really tight speed controls well below current limits - including limiters.
Edukator - Reformed TrollIf the authorities wish to install a GPS device that prevents my car doing more than the speed limit I'll happily pay for the privilege. You don't buy a Boxter if you intend to respect the Highway code all the time.
God I hope this never happens, my current car has far more power than a Boxster and you know, I didn't buy it for the speed, I bought it because I liked it and because I can do thousands of miles in comfort and if I do want to open in it up while in Europe I can. It does have an optional speed limiter (as well as the manual right foot one) but I only remember using that when in temporary speed restrictions (so I don't get carried away and creep back up to 70).
But I will admit current cars make it much easier to speed, it took something special to make a mk2 Escort break the NSL in the 80's 😀
You don't need to break the speed limit to get in trouble in a car [s]like a Boxster.[/s]
FTFY
Me - Id like to see a huge expansion in road safety enforcement with a much higher risk of getting caught. Self funding too from the fines which would be much bigger and more punitive than they are now.
Mandatory retesting every 5 years.
Speeds that would make your eyes bleed, eh, TJ?
😉
You don't need to break the speed limit to get in trouble in a car like a Boxster.
FTFY
True story. RWD drive car, lots of ice out there, not hard at all.
Town I grew up in (Taunton) installed cobbled roads through the centre bit for some mock retro reason. There've been a few instances of RWD cars, including Porsches and BMWs getting wrapped around lampposts in the early hours, and yet more of cyclists under lorries etc.. as the cobbles make stopping normal vehicles, and navigation by other things difficult...
but it looks pretty, and that's what matters most..
What spec Boxster was it? Some of them are pretty lukewarm.
Absolutely CFH. MY point always was don't bleat about getting caught. Can't do the time don't do the crime?
I would be quite happy to see much more enforcement like zero tolerance. Roads would soon be nice and quiet as most drivers would either have to change their behaviour or be banned within months
Why is everyone assuming the young driver was male? The OP (in a second post) wrote "Gender is irrelevant" - which I took to be in response to the assumption in the early posts that the driver was male, and a hint that the driver may have been female. (Isn't English odd - I could have written that much more easily with a gender neutral pronoun, other than 'it'.)
GPS tracking, zero-tolerance of speeding, speed limiters set at the prevailing speed limit of the road. NONE of that that is going to help someone who finds themselves in difficulty without the driving skills to get themselves out of difficulty.
I learnt the hard way that a lightweight, mid-engined RWD car - driven no faster than my previous FWD family hatchback and driven under the speed limit - can have you in a dry stone wall effortlessly.
Why is everyone assuming the young driver was male?
because it mostly likely was?
[i]Males make up a considerably higher proportion of young car driver fatalities and KSI casualties. Around three quarters of all young car driver deaths are male. However, the split for slightly injured casualties is even. This suggests that young female drivers are just as likely to be involved in an accident as young male drivers, but young male drivers are more likely to be seriously injured or killed, possibly as a result of being in a higher speed
collision.[/i]
Pigface - MemberAm I being unreasonable in thinking letting a inexperienced 19yr old driver loose in a Boxter is irresponsible? Result car destroyed and passenger a trip to A+E.
Driver showing off put it into a tree, thank god for airbags and good design.
I personally wouldn't allow my eldest to drive a car like that at 19, I assume by the tone of "let loose" they facilitated it somehow. Everyone one is different. I know some very level headed, very smart 19 year olds who I'd feel confident they wouldn't do something stupid, but they're very exceptional - my eldest isn't like that, not at the moment anyway, he's very sure of himself and often very wrong about the things he's very certain of.
My first car was a Golf Gti 16v, it was more car than a stupid new driver should be given, I genuinely thought I was a BRILLAINT driver.
My Parents didn't have much say in it though, I was 20, I lived away from home and I paid for it myself. They didn't allow it, but I wasn't seeking permission. I span it twice driving like a dick in less than ideal conditions, I missed crashing it more by luck than judgment. It actually genuinely made me a good driver in the end, the lack of ABS and ESP meant I learned how to brake a steer properly and the rock hard suspension (non-standard of course) and usually crap, never matching and barely legal depth tyres meant I learned to look ahead and read the road surface, but it was a ****ing stupid way to learn.
A Boxster, even a very early one isn't like my old Golf, not unless it's a heap anyway. It will be very easy to make go fast, but quite docile at the same time, unless you're stupid enough at 19 to think you should turn off the ESP and "get it sideways" on the road.
My first car was an MR2. I bought it. I insured it. It was nevertheless not a clever choice, as I discovered later, when facing the wrong way on a dual carriageway having previously been facing the right way. Insurance went to a ridiculous quote, I sold it, I grew up a bit, fortunately without wiping anything or anyone out.
Giving a similarly aged lad the keys to a Boxter seems, unless they are an exceptionally level headed individual, somewhat daft and irresponsible.
"[i]...speed limiters set at the prevailing speed limit of the road.[/i]"
God no. People will just drive around with their foot wedged to the floor the whole time, because that's the "correct" speed.
More importantly, it's a Box[u]S[/u]ter.
It's a Boxter as in Porche.
Even a relatively lukewarm old Boxster is still going to have what 230bhp through the rear wheels? If it's a newish 'S' then it'll be north of 300. Even the former is a decent amount in a mid-engined sports car.. I'd more than likely have binned one of them at 19. I had a little 1300cc 60bhp fiesta at that age and exploring the limits of grip happened at relatively low speed with the result being understeer which IMO is more easily (naturally?) controlled than oversteer. If the parents facilitated it then I think it's a poor call tossing them the keys.. That's my pennys wath anyway.
Greybeard has it, driver was a girl, didn't want to say as it could be perceived as deregotory.
Just changes which tree they hit, not whether they hit a tree.Rachel
'Like'
Getting rid of the metaphors, whilst you can kill yourself and others at 50mph, you're more likely to do so at 150mph and if the temptation's there, younger kids are more likely to try it.
Yet I'm pretty sure the greater majority of fatal accidents take place at or below posted speed limits.
After a fatal RTA on a fairly new bypass, the limit was dropped from 60 to 50, and roundabouts put at the various joining roads; the accident happened because a mother taking her kids to school turned around to remonstrate with them, drifted across the carriageway into the front of an oncoming truck.
Neither vehicle was doing more than thirty mph, half the posted limit at the time.
Trucks are limited, but look at the carnage they cause when they run into a line of slow or stationary traffic.
I wonder if those advocating the use of speed limiters have ever driven a vehicle with one fitted; it means you get long lines of slow moving vehicles clogging up two lanes of a three-lane carriageway because it takes miles for one vehicle to pass another, a van that's limited to 70 can only do 68. Allowing higher speeds, and I would happily see an upper limit of 80 on motorways, lets traffic spread itself out much more, because there's likely to be a difference of thirty or more mph between slow and fast traffic, with limiters, there's going to be three mph at most
Well you're one case hasn't convinced me.
Yet I'm pretty sure the greater majority of fatal accidents take place at or below posted speed limits.
Really? Is this just a feeling or based on data?
is the car relevant?i drove like a **** in a nova when I was that age.
I'd say yes it is. Very much so.
It's not just the speeds you're able to reach - most cars will get you somewhere near 100mph these days, I'm sure. Though the ability to get up to speed quickly is a factor, as is the pure thrill of it.
In a really powerful car though, it's how the car handles that power. Put your foot down going into a bend and you're liable to come out of it going backwards. That generally doesn't happen in a Nova - you just emerge from the other side doing 2 or 3mph more. I had a car that would spin the rear wheels at 70mph in the wet on a straight road. It would be easy to overcook it with something as simple as pulling out of junction. There's plenty of videos on Youtube to prove it. Again, rarely happens in a Nova. Speed is a small part of it. You can quite easily crash a fast car before you've reached 30mph.
anagallis_arvensis - MemberReally? Is this just a feeling or based on data?
According to ROSPA, 282 people died in road accidents where someone was exceeding the speed limit, in 2014. I can't find a fatality figure for 2014 but in 2013 it was 1700.
i think its far more likely at the age of 19 that your going to be driving a shit car past the edge of its abilities and yours.
I suspect he learnt in a normal car, then got the keys to the rwd mid engine Porsche, probably thinking it had no limits.
He probably knew the limits of his mum's hatchback
As someone who started driving a 60bhp diesel hatch, and now owns a boxter, i can absolutely gaurantee that the car will make a difference.
An inexperianced driver ragging a 300 bhp rwd car round a corner is never going to end well, especially if its even slightly greasy. Its no different than suggesting an inexperianced biker should get himself a 1000cc sportsbike.
Yes you can crash in an old fiesta, but you are more likely to do it in a performance car if you don't treat it with respect.
When I was 19 or 20 I spun my 1.3 Astra into an armco barrier and knackered the front suspension when I understeered it into a kerb (separate incidents - I didn't learn). I'd have probably had a far bigger smash if I'd had a Boxster - glad I only had a 1.3 Astra.