[Closed] Interesting Cold War type facts

There was a legend about a West of Scotland cyclist who went on an Eastern European cycle camping trip at the height of the Cold War, accidentally strayed onto the wrong side of the Iron Curtain, was arrested as a spy and disappeared into the Russian Gulag.
He was only rescued when his employer started making angry enquiries about why he hadn't turned up for work a few weeks later.

...errr, nothing to do with bikes but topical if you are in Devon this week: I went to an art exhibition in the old Devon "Regional Seat of Government" nuclear bunker this morning.
http://www.bunkerproject.co.uk/index.html
Both the art and the "poking around vast cold war relic with no one telling you what/not to do" were awesome fun. 😀

also, one of our smallest local government fallout shelters (under Pounds House in Plymouth if you are interested) had excercise-bike powered ventilation. 😆 Photos etc if you search online and allegedly the bike is still there!

[edit] [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_steam_reserve ]you do know that the UK SSR is an urban myth, don't you?[/url]
[url= http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/showthread.php/48594-Strategic-Steam-Reserve-Tunnel-Quarry-2010 ]Ifound out about it via this excellent website.[/url]

I don't know any Cold War facts but....

The record, supposedly, for projectile vomiting is 27 feet.

the ssr might be a myth but the bunker under corsham ain't: [url= http://www.burlingtonbunker.co.uk/ ]http://www.burlingtonbunker.co.uk/[/url]

I like these little bunkers: http://www.rocbunkers.co.uk/. There's almost certainly one near you.

The SSR is a running joke in the urbex community 🙂

In the '70s, at the height of the Cold War, the US president was always followed by a man with the "football" - a high-tech communications device so he could order a nuclear strike at any time.

The British PM was supposed to find a phone box. They discussed buying an AA membership so he could use the AA call boxes, but that was ruled out on cost grounds...

Or another favourite: When automated launch systems were installed in the US missile silos, they were meant to have a code number to launch the missiles. The military top brass thought code numbers were a pansy-ass civilian thing, so they left all the code numbers as 000000.

The conspiracy theories around Harold Wilson's second government are pretty interesting (not cold war facts, more like anti-facts).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Wilson_conspiracy_theories

The claims of a planned military coup to depose Wilson and install Lord Mountbatten as leader sound incredible, with hindsight. e.g. Heathrow airport shut for 2 days without his knowledge for 'military training'.

Even assuming this is all bollocks, it does point to an underlying fragility at that time in our history. Country was on its knees economically, depths of the cold war - it's not unrealistic to think that fanatical voices would be making themselves heard and even listened to.

The TSR2 was cancelled because their weren't sufficient nuclear bombs to arm them - production was concentrated on Polaris warheads.

Cycling related - the lock on a UK atomic bombs was a simple cycle combination lock.

Oh, love this subject!

Burlington's amazing - but essentially made redundant very quickly due to the introduction of the H-Bomb - did you know that the activation code for Burlington was 'Orangeade'?

would be more interesting to find out about the ones we don't know about 😉

rumours abound about certain salt mines in Cheshire, but I think the accepted truth about breaking down into small clusters was probably truthful

https://twitter.com/wellbright is worth following

Curtis LeMay (founder of SAC) and his equivalent in the nuclear weapons storage had a "gentlemans" agreement that if the top brass and civilian government got taken out in a surprise attack they would launch a retaliation themselves.

Also, LeMay, in the early period of the cold war when missiles were still being developed thought that a limited war was possible with only minor US casualties (a few million) compared to Europe (10's millions+) and so as the war was winnable with acceptable losses routinely got his bombers to fly past the Point of No Return in order to provoke the USSR into action.

The TSR2 was cancelled because their weren't sufficient nuclear bombs to arm them - production was concentrated on Polaris warheads.

Not true; IIRC the only nuclear strike aircraft unable to be armed with conventional weapons was the US Navy's A-5.

Cancelling TSR2 was a bad decision; would have been as capable as the Tornado GR.1 but ten years earlier.

Andy

Cancelling TSR2 was a bad decision; would have been as capable as the Tornado GR.1 but ten years earlier.

Quite a lot bigger though. Going on the one at Cosford.

anyone intrested
www.secretbases.co.uk, lots of intresting stuff,

Sub brit.co.uk

and

28dayslater.co.uk,

also 2 books

secret undergeround cities,

and

cold war secret nuclear bunkers,

and not forgetting Duncan Cambells book war plan uk.

Then theres the top secret chemical plant under the hills of Rhydamwyn near Mold, and the tunnel to the sea to dispose of all the effluents, now closed down,

and a top secret bunker hiden in North Wales and possibly still mothballed, even the staff dont know its there, or admit to knowing its there.

Burlington's amazing - but essentially made redundant very quickly due to the introduction of the H-Bomb

Well, not quite - the problem with Burlington was that it was a one-shot deal. Keep it secret and it's fine, the Soviets wouldn't know where it is and bomb it. But then when do you make a run for the bunker? Go too soon, and you've blown it and can't use it again if the situation blows over. Go too late, and you can't get all the 2,500 people there in time.

Another one: the Erskine Bridge was really built to enable ordnance to be quickly transported from the stores at Beith to Faslane - there is still some military stuff around the bridge.

Father in law flew vulcans. Frequently went 'Full nuclear' with no return flight available. They were trained to turn south and head for Africa. Imagine being sent up with mission orders, knowing that there wouldn't be anything to come back to. Only to be told it was an exercise at the last moment.

In the one year odd of the Berlin Airlift, between 225,000 and 275,000 flights arrived in Berlin depending on how you count things.

Bunkers- not strictly Cold War, unless you count their demolition, but I've just been reading a novel which referred to the the flak towers in Berlin. While I'd heard of them, I had no awareness of their size, coverage, or impregnability.

Again, not Cold War, but I found this poster the other day, very amusing..

[img] [/img]

Bunkers- not strictly Cold War, unless you count their demolition, but I've just been reading a novel which referred to the the flak towers in Berlin. While I'd heard of them, I had no awareness of their size, coverage, or impregnability.

Are those the ones where the concrete is so thick, it's still not fully set after 70 years? I've seen pictures from someone exploring one - just insane. Apparently no-one knows how to demolish them.

One of my sites is the UGHQ bunker underneath Portsdown Hill North of Portsmouth. Used as the naval control centre in WW2 from which Atlantic convoy and later D Day shipping movements were planned and tracked in the cold war it served for while as a control centre for the ROC posts. After a few years the cost of maintaining it alongside it's vunerability to nuclear weapons made it obsolete so the comcen was moved into Fort Southwick (Napoleonic fort 120ft above). The glass map with the ROC posts marked on it still survives in the main command room, along with the secure communications room although much of the fittings have been removed from elsewhere. Fort Widley a mile or so to the East holds the council's nuclear bunker which is preserved and half a mile to the West are 3 huge underground fuel bunkers. Used in WW2 to store fuel oil which was piped down to the harbour and allegedly still full in the cold war.
Portsdown historical society has loads more info on these and similar sites in the area.

John Rylands Library have a Russian invasion map of Manchester. Important buildings, intersection and good spots to park your tanks are shown.

If you live in Edinburgh- on top of the old police boxes there's an ugly little siren- that's the 4 minute warning- fitted in the cold war era because the boxes provided an existing network to trigger them. I've got one of the police boxes in bits in my workshop and I can date when it was decommissioned because its never had one of those sirens fitted.

Bum

Best thing about the Cold War?

This website, and every other one on the Internet

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET ]Arpanet[/url]

maccruiskeen - are you old enough to remember what they sound like? When I was growing up they were still testing them regularly.

Ref Manchester maps:

Oh - and can anyone else recall the Public Information ads on the Beeb explaining what the Royal Observer Corps were going to do in those wee monitoring shelters?

Ah, the ROC - I had a few friends in that... death in an underground caravan 😆

Tocsin Bang!

Are those the ones where the concrete is so thick, it's still not fully set after 70 years? I've seen pictures from someone exploring one - just insane. Apparently no-one knows how to demolish them.

Quite a few in Germany and Austria have been demolished since the end of the war, although a couple (in Berlin I think?) we're partially demolished and then covered over to make what looks like natural hills.

You can still get inside one of them if you know where the entrance is, Pretty cool.

They still test the war alarm at 15:00 on the first Monday of every month in Sweden. Got used to it now, but it was a little off-putting to begin with.

I have met someone who took part in the 1990(?) first sea kayak expedition to cross the Bering Strait. Except he and couple of colleagues seemed to have a really intimate knowledge of some of the islands and beaches on the way...
A further expedition he organised arrived in Russia in mid 1990's - with no boats. On being asked where the boats he had been asked to rent were, he took them all on a few mile hike to a remote bay on north Russian coast - Where a hidden cave/shed thing revealed 6 all-black sea kayaks. Apparently the owner had no more need of them, but could not wander in and recover them to easily....
Seems he and others spent a few years being able to get people and things in and out of North Russian coast by kayak and boat....but he would (no really) kill you if you told... 😕

Are those the ones where the concrete is so thick, it's still not fully set after 70 years? I've seen pictures from someone exploring one - just insane. Apparently no-one knows how to demolish them.

Quite a few in Germany and Austria have been demolished since the end of the war, although a couple (in Berlin I think?) we're partially demolished and then covered over to make what looks like natural hills.

You can still get inside one of them if you know where the entrance is, Pretty cool.

My father recently returned from a visit to Berlin and had a look. There is only half of one of them still left standing. There were three in Berlin and all ended up in the Eastern (Soviet) sector. Two were eventually demolished and their remains covered over.

You can book tours of the remaining tower here; [url= http://www.viator.com/tours/Berlin/Berlin-Flak-Towers-Underground-Walking-Tour/d488-2796FLAK ]Berlin Underground Tours[/url]

I remember a story around here years ago that the A14 was duelled between the A1 and Northampton so the US could get their mobile cruise missiles dispersed quickly from RAF Molesworth. I would love to know if it was true.

When I was at school we had a trip (late 70s) to the ROC bunker in Shrewsbury - all fully kitted out with maps for plotting strikes, food, water supplies generators etc etc.

Was a bit scary and much more so than the various dramas and public service films we seemed to get at the time.

richmars, i've heard that too, and that all when the M1 was built all the americans asked that all the bridges were at least 5m high so that they could get cruise missles under them.

This man cycles and knows a thing or two about bunkers:

http://coastkid.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/cold%20war

I served on polaris boats in the late 80's early 90's got loads of storys but if i told you, i'd have to kill you
😉

julianwilson - Member
...errr, nothing to do with bikes but topical if you are in Devon this week: I went to an art exhibition in the old Devon "Regional Seat of Government" nuclear bunker this morning.
http://www.bunkerproject.co.uk/index.html
Both the art and the "poking around vast cold war relic with no one telling you what/not to do" were awesome fun.

Yeltsin prevented nuclear war. He refused to authorise a retalatory strike.

hora: [citation needed]

The Cold War wasn't a cold war. It was very hot in lots of places and lots of people died.

One link. If you are being attack response time is vital to get your own missiles away...

He waited.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/coldwar/shatter031598a.htm

when the M1 was built all the americans asked that all the bridges were at least 5m high so that they could get cruise missles under them.

Think that may be an urban legend, the standard night for an Unmarked Bridge in the UK is 16 feet 6 inches.

That doesn't mean the Yanks didn't ask though I suppose, just means there was no need for them to ask that's all

My father was based at RAF Fylingdales (BMEWS site) for a while, I had a tour of the base once and the guy told us if the alarms go off we've got about 7 minutes until stuff starts blowing up. Just in case that wasn't comforting enough (to a 10 year old) he then went on to tell us that chances were if WW3 actually kicked off then Spetsnatz would launch a pre-emptive attack on the base and everyone would be dead before the bombs went off anyway. Then the alarm actually went off but after a bloke got a manual out and checked some stuff it turned out it was known space debris so was all OK, I was bricking it for a while though...

.

The Russians never would have gotten tanks here in Manchester. IF they did they wouldn't have to worry about any roads, they'd be more concerned with their various illnesses/cancers etc killing whats left of their own soldiers.

I imagine there was a large contingent of ****ers who would rise up for their Russian masters here though.

Quite a few privately owned buildings had air raid sirens mounted on top and were connected to local control centres by intercom - if the balloon did indeed go up they would receive a call, get down to the intercom to get the detail, press the big red button to activate the alarm then hope for the best. One of my dad's mates used to run a pub in Hale, the name of which escapes me at the moment, and he showed us the intercom in the pub cellars when they were doing one of their regular tests with the local control.

The old mill on our street had one as well - before I knew better about the testing, a few of us kids were home alone when the siren went off for a couple of minutes and, with no adults to tell us it was just a test, we spent the next half an hour hiding under the stairs whimpering in the vain hope that, as with conventional bombs, that would be enough to protect us from whatever number of kiltons was about to rain down on Manchester Airport.

The russians invasion plan was based on the threat of a missile attack. Their plan was to scare all the politicians into there bunkers around the UK. A team of sleeper agents would then put their special training as builders into effect. Concrete over the entrances and take over the country.

Anyone with any sense knows that Barratts homes where really a cover for the KGB.

Murray - Member
The TSR2 was cancelled because their weren't sufficient nuclear bombs to arm them - production was concentrated on Polaris warheads.

Polaris was made by the Lockheed Corporation of California for the United States Navy and we bought them in 1963. The TSR-2 was cancelled in 1965 mainly becasue it was massivly over budget.

I remember being told that there are several straight, flat sections of dual carriageway in the eastern part of England that could be used as runways for Jaguars/Tornados in a war scenario. Similarly, there are bridges that would provide the necessary protection from some air raids and satellite recon.

There were plans to put bomb shelters in the basements of all town halls, but there was a problem - some town halls had small basements and needed the space for storage.

So in some places, a big pile of bricks was provided, and if the siren sounded the staff were instructed to get bricklaying very, very quickly...

Oh, and another one I heard from someone who works at Faslane: The boat lift there is a gigantic and very expensive construction, able to lift an entire missile submarine out of the water. When you do the lift, it's important to keep it level. They tried all sorts of gyroscopic, laser-beam, computerised leveling systems, and gave up on them - the best solution was that a bloke paints a white cross on the floor, and the operator watches a weight hung from the ceiling.

when the M1 was built all the americans asked that all the bridges were at least 5m high so that they could get cruise missles under them.
Think that may be an urban legend, the standard night for an Unmarked Bridge in the UK is 16 feet 6 inches.

That doesn't mean the Yanks didn't ask though I suppose, just means there was no need for them to ask that's all

I doubt there was much chance of that. I have no proof they didn't ask for anything but the M1 was mostly completed in the late 60's and cruise missiles were based at Greenham Common and Molesworth in the 1980's. Nearest motorways to those are the M4 and M11 or A1.

I'm also pretty sure that no British roads or motorways were built to be used as emergency runways in the event of war. There seem to have been plenty of rumours that some were but most appear to have been easily debunked due to the number of bridges and permanent furniture.

I do recall reading somewhere that some German roads were built to be used as runways first in the late 1930's and then again during the cold war in both East and West Germany.

All wonderfully interesting, but as nothing when compared to [url= http://services.english-heritage.org.uk/ResearchReportsPdfs/010_2009WEB.pdf ]Orford Ness[/url].
Generally reckoned, by them that know, to be at least as significant as Bletchley Park to the winning of WW2 and was consistently so throughout the Cold War and also as far back as WW1, yet completely obscure, to most, to this day.

The book about its history by Paddy Heazell is well worth a read. Goes right up to developing a counter to the Exocets during the Falklands War.

The Soviets operated a system called the "Dead Hand".

Worried about their command and control leadership being killed in a first strike the Soviets developed an automated system for retaliating to a nuclear strike even if the people who normally made the decision were dead.

If the Dead Hand system detected a nuclear detonation on Soviet territory it would automatically respond by launching missiles at pre programmed targets.

It was Mutaully Assured Destruction taken to its logical conclusion - we'll still kill you even if we are all dead

It was Mutaully Assured Destruction taken to its logical conclusion - we'll still kill you even if we are all dead

Even though thankfully it never did (nor hopefully ever will) come to this, I still find this very disturbing

BigEaredBiker - Member

when the M1 was built all the americans asked that all the bridges were at least 5m high so that they could get cruise missles under them.
Think that may be an urban legend, the standard night for an Unmarked Bridge in the UK is 16 feet 6 inches.

That doesn't mean the Yanks didn't ask though I suppose, just means there was no need for them to ask that's all

I doubt there was much chance of that. I have no proof they didn't ask for anything but the M1 was mostly completed in the late 60's and cruise missiles were based at Greenham Common and Molesworth in the 1980's. Nearest motorways to those are the M4 and M11 or A1.

I'm also pretty sure that no British roads or motorways were built to be used as emergency runways in the event of war. There seem to have been plenty of rumours that some were but most appear to have been easily debunked due to the number of bridges and permanent furniture.

I do recall reading somewhere that some German roads were built to be used as runways first in the late 1930's and then again during the cold war in both East and West Germany.

Concur with your time line.

The RAF did do some Jaguar landings on motorways.

Oops!

Some Scandinavian countries closer to Russia made sure they could operate aircraft from roads- Sweden has some reinforced roads I think.

Something in the news a couple of months ago too about Korea or Taiwan practicing landing F-16s on the road.

EDIT here: [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13048131 ]F16 on the road[/url]
"Various sections of the island's motorways are designed to be used as runways at short notice."

I think I read somewhere that it makes more sense to be able to do this if you are very close to the likely threat so wouldn't get much warning before the bombers appear overhead.

Taiwan defo has dual purpose roads/landing strips and has had for many years. Also dual purpose civilian/military airports.

For the cycling link.........

Chicksands Woods had an elephant cage during the Cold War

8)

The Jag did some test landings on the m55 before it opened.

Here in Switzerland the cold war never ended. Most buildings have built-in nuclear bunkers (we keep paper files and old PCs in ours) or are sufficiently close to communal bunkers.
There are regular tests of the nuclear alarm signal too.

If the "balloon" ever does go up, what's left of Europe will be fine for cigarettes, chocolate and independent sport associations.. 🙂

we keep paper files and old PCs in ours

The RAF did do some Jaguar landings on motorways.

Interesting as that's different to what I've always been told (not that I am special or an expert on these matters)...

A bit more digging (and mostly wiki stuff) and I think what happened is the Jaguar was tested on the M55 when the road was being built. If it was from Warton (as wiki says) it might not even have been in RAF service as that is a BAE aerodrome not a military/RAF base. Therefore this wasn't to test the M55 for suitability as an emergency runway but rather test the Jaguars ability to be used on roads designated to be used as airstrips. Jaguars may well have ended up doing this if the cold war turned hot - especially in West Germany where some roads had been designed with this in mind.

This makes a lot more sense and ties in with what I have previously heard. It also helps explain the stories that British motorways were designed to be emergency airstrips - the best stories always have a grain of truth to them.

Belarus has a few roads which can also be used as airstrips.

Polaris was made by the Lockheed Corporation of California for the United States Navy and we bought them in 1963

We bought the missile system, but designed & manufactured our own warheads. The Chevaline modification was a UK project, too.

Andy

My father recently mentioned that in the late 80/early 90's he was informed that he had been assigned a seat in the north eastern control bunker (near flambrough?) in the event of nuclear war. He wasn't military but had skills deemed necessary for dealing with the aftermath

He had to keep it secret though as there wouldn't be space for his wife or kids. I imagine that would be a tough decision to make...

He had to keep it secret though as there wouldn't be space for his wife or kids. I imagine that would be a tough decision to make...

I was a bit of a prat as a teen so I'm sure there were many an occasion the old man hoped that Reagan might have a 'moment' so he could get a few hours peace 😀

On the subject of motorways/landing strips... Surely that's just a case of finding a big straight bit with no street furniture? Seems like you could easily land a plane on most of the M8- no street lights, few bridges, etc. Narrower than a runway though.

As for reinforcement, take a Tornado, the absolute maximum takeoff weight is 28000kg, so lighter than a big truck- though on less contact points of course and you don't normally have to land a truck. Then again you're not going to land thousands of planes on a road every day.

So, feasability wise it seems simple?

Yeah - the Swedes had some roads assigned as "hot" airfields. I remember driving through bits of dense forest and you'd suddenly come to a straight bit of road where the trees had been cut right back on both sides. I'm pretty sure some of them had dispersal areas in the forests too. These roads weren't motorway width. They were that strange "lane and a half" thing where slower traffic was supposed to pull over onto the half hard shoulder to let faster traffic through. The sort of thing that works in Scandinavia but would cause frustration and heartache over here 🙂

Not entirely or even a wee bit sure about the factual integrity of this but, the base at Macrihanish may have been used as a base for long range spy planes at the height of the cold war. It boasted one of the longest runways in Europe I think.

Even more intriguing, well for me anyway is that the mythical Aurora had been spotted in the area around that time.

I used to change the batteries on the out of band signalling systems for the alarms in my local area when I was a field engineer in the 80's. Had a tour of the nuclear bunkers under Manchester City Centre in the early 90's just after the last trunk network equipment had been decommissioned in there, but all the rest areas were as they were from the height of the cold war, miles n miles of tunnels, artesian wells, multiple generators etc..

Someone mention TSR2 it's bloody huge but with a tiny wingspan.

[img] [/img]

loving this thread.
My dad always said that the fox and grapes pub on the A64 near leeds/york was part of the nuclear network, either for coms or near a bunker. Never believed him as a kid, but the location is perfect for something!

Given the, ahem, resilience to attack, that was built in to Millgarth police station that may be a possibility.

I seem to recall the post office/telecom building on the A61 has a bunker, along with the UKWMO group HQ by LB Airport - I also seem to remember that war plan UK listed a rather large home office store of riot equipment (shields, helmets, CS gas etc) being stored up at the airport too.

Lotta civ defence bunkers were under exchanges, can remember refitting one in the early 80's with a brand new Strowger exchange, all electro-mechanical stuff so more likely to survive an EMP. It's all now toilets for a bar. Now this place is even more interesting

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/northeastwales/hi/people_and_places/history/newsid_8077000/8077550.stm

Massive chemical weapons place and did some research on nuclear weapons.

The Golden Rule, pub in Dagnall Buckinghamshire had an ominous grey box on the wall with a speaker.The landlord showed me the accompanying information papers detailing what the communications would be, at a given number of minutes before the expected strike, in the event of a nuclear attack.

It was very creepy indeed.

There was a field of ariels a mile or two up the road, some with exceptionally long dipoles, witha designation as an RAF base. A small block house on the surface with no windows was the only building.

And worst of all mobile phones lost all signal withint about a mile of the place.

I used to be right into planes and stuff in my early teens during the mid 80s..
I remember reading a rather long article about the Harriers.. If it all kicked off but stayed conventional it was basically going to be a giant tank battle in central Europe. The Harrier was to be utilised in a close support role operating in small units of two or three planes dispersed out to forrest clearings, autobahn underpasses and the like to escape detection and aid survival rates.. They also planned on using them in the UK should the Ruskis manage to invade us in order to fight a campaign of resistance.. I seem to recall them operating from large supermarkets that had had the fascias removed so they could take off and land in the car parks but hide from reconnaissance within the building itself..
Scary stuff but interesting!

I think I read that same article. And, hmm, I think it was in Warlord

Operation Skyshield- Vulcans get through US NORAD defences to bomb New York.

I worked on a hospital refit where they had fully removable walls so they could create super wards for all the injured in the event of a nearby (ish) nuclear strike. When I asked if they had a bunker I was met with a wall of silence.

I also have a friend who's father is (was) on the list of aftermath residents, who have important skills to rebuild society after the Armageddon. As mentioned previously his family where also not included.

I hope they have kept or do keep a few of these things secret - did anyone see the china day celebrations / big nuke parade a couple of years ago...

Not hardware but I've always found number stations interesting:

[url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_station [/url]