Real change looks like eco-communism.
Not many people want their lives controlled that way.
Right but then if it’s unpopular, they won’t get re-elected next time will they?
Incredibly, some governments have done things because they were right, not because they were popular, and that has led to respect and re-election.
Sounds alien as I write it.
I’m interested in actual real change.
Please tell us how. According to most, any form of personal responsibility is a waste of time.
any form of personal responsibility is a waste of time
It's not a waste of time. But it's not going to get a large development of social housing upgraded to half decent (or better) energy efficiency standards. It's not going to place a legal obligation on developers to make new homes properly energy efficient. And so on... the government need to be pushed to implement such changes, as part of a real plan, rather than hand waving and talking about distant targets.
eco-communism
Quick.... man the barricades! Keep out the eco-communists! Reds/Greens under the bed!
The government has a crucial role to play in all this, expecting them to do so is not "communism" of any kind.
it’s just not fundable in the current scenario
"Unfundable" in the scenatio in which the chancellor prefers to keep giving tax breaks to his pals in banking, while propagatong the fiction for the rest of us that we "have no money". The fact is that money is not an obstacle to doing what we need to do.
Right but then if it’s unpopular, they won’t get re-elected next time will they?
Sure there will always be dinosaurs who refuse any change, but if the Govt communicated a compelling need for change then there'd be no political capital to be made by their main opponents.
And early action in a term would give unpalateable policies time to bed in and the electorate time to come to terms with it.
Maybe.
if the Govt communicated a compelling need for change then there’d be no political capital to be made by their main opponents.
Yeah, of course - look, I'm not advocating for this, I'm just spelling out what happens. We all know what we want and need - a competent forward thinking progressive government - but the real question is how to actually get there.
According to most, any form of personal responsibility is a waste of time.
Er no, that's not what's being said (why are people so hard of comprehension here?). What's being said is that we can't RELY on personal responsibility to solve the problems.
Er no, that’s not what’s being said (why are people so hard of comprehension here?). What’s being said is that we can’t RELY on personal responsibility to solve the problems.
It's what the majority of people think.
Personal responsibility can only go so far. It won’t insulate social housing projects, or get developers to make new homes more efficient.
What’s being said is that we can’t RELY on personal responsibility to solve the problems.
to me its clear from what folk are saying on this thread that most folk will not take any action if it has any effects on them at all. Can't put up petrol prices, must have out of season veg and fruit, still need to flay for holidays etc
@Poly
Doctoring is one thing, but can it really be used as an example when in truth the politician isnt going back to such a profession and is in fact taking up directorship for an arms firm or oil company doing 20 hours a month for £200,000 a year.
Any way you swing it it's corruption. But unfortunately and as with the winners of war write the history books, the government writes the rules as to what constitutes corruption and such practices are not included, nor really frowned upon, but are in fact encouraged.
Real change looks like eco-communism.
Weird, everything you don't like you label as communism.
Not many people want their lives controlled that way.
What most people haven’t really comprehend yet is that they’ll like the results of not doing it a lot less.
Climate change isn’t something we *should* do something about, it’s something we *have* to do something about.
As unpalatable as it may be to many the ‘somethings’ are both drastic and required quickly. Dithering about slowly make small changes ain’t gonna cut it.
XR and IB aren’t trying to get public support, they’re trying to make enough noise and disruption to get things moving.
But @dyna-ti that’s the problem with your blanket ban to second jobs and follow on jobs after being a minister. It means people with legitimate jobs would be excluded.
Presumably Teressa may would be banned from almost any senior job for another 3 yrs. But it’s Ok for Nick clegg to work for Facebook? you might not like the woman - but that seems crazy.
XR and IB aren’t trying to get public support, they’re trying to make enough noise and disruption to get things moving.
But you need public support in order to get things moving! What do you think is going to happen? You think people are going to watch the news footage of people blocking roads and go 'oh actually yes I must get my house insulated or lobby my MP for a grant?' How do you think people's minds work?
The whole point about democracy is that governments do things that are popular
Surely it's about voting the side in that the voters believe will do the right thing? Or we'd vote on everything and wouldn't infact have a government.
Poly - something needs to be done for sure
second jobs, non exec directorships ( bribe by another name) should certainly be not allowed - being an MP is a full time job and the number of MPs who give juicy contracts to firms then join them after the next election or even before for huge sums is disgusting.
Westminster is highly corrupt just the corruption is legalised and normalised
Kwarteng took a huge sum from an energy company wanting to put in a cross channel cable and is now promoting them relentlessly - thats outright corruption
large numbers of tory mps have taken money from private health firms - trust them to be impartial?
I passed no comment about whether I thought their methods would work, or are the correct way to go about it.
I’m simply explaining that contrary to popular opinion they are not trying to ‘get support’ they are trying to ‘cause a fuss’.
Arguably, that is working...
joshvegas
Free Member
The whole point about democracy is that governments do things that are popularSurely it’s about voting the side in that the voters believe will do the right thing? Or we’d vote on everything and wouldn’t infact have a government.
If you have 5 years in power then you have 4 years of not worrying too much about unpopular stuff, more often you do stuff that's unpopular to then fund the vote winning policies in the last year before an election.
I don't think this government are that bothered about being popular at present, they're living rent free just now as the opposition are useless and disjointed.
You think people are going to watch the news footage of people blocking roads and go ‘oh actually yes I must get my house insulated or lobby my MP for a grant?’
They are not trying to get people to insulate their own homes, they are trying to get government to plan, fund and legislate to:
- first insulate social housing projects
- then update privately rented and owner occupied homes
They want to keep those demands in the public eye. As soon as they end their campaign, the idea will be swept aside. They have to keep on. And they have to disrupt normal life. Or they won’t be heard. And we can argue about their dates, but what they are calling for is exactly what the government needs to do, rather than wash its hand of the insulating question.
Slightly OT but am I the only one to notice the special brand of STW hypocrisy at play in this thread. Yes the driver is a dick but attacking the way she looks would have a lot of posters wringing their hands and virtual crying in most other threads. Why’s it okay here? Christ I’ve seen people jumping to Priti Patel’s defence when people bring up her appearance.
Did someone bring up her appearance?
I missed it amongst the 7 pages to wandering off topic...
I'll admit to being more interested in her actions than her appearance.
Did someone bring up her appearance?
Several times. Don’t see what bearing it has on being a complete ****. They come in all shapes, sizes, colours and genders. The wonderful diverse world of dickheadom
The architecture of the northern hemisphere evolved to meet the human need for shelter and heat, every building is defined by its energy era, from early hovel with a hearth for wood, to Georgian and Victorian buildings designed around coal, or more recently modern housing designed to be powered by oil and gas, the energy source for heat the building contains, our biggest energy consumption, defines the building, all of them combustible, and all of them now classed as an environmental problem.
Gas filled the gap, gas can cost effectively heat a house designed for coal, now that gas is on the wind down what are the alternatives?
Electricity is our other big energy but is hugely expensive to heat with unless the building is designed to contain it, the job of adapting a traditional Victorian house designed for coal, or the average modern flat or semi designed for gas is a big and hugely expensive one, in some cases close to the rebuild cost of the house, the task of adapting tens of millions of them probably beyond possible in reality.
Yet the transition from gas..to something..is apparently the UK’s next stage in meeting the governments pledge on lowering carbon emissions, the result can only be very expensive and rising gas bills in the short term, and possibly freezing to death in the longer term for those that can’t afford to strip their house out and reinsulate.
The current British government was elected on a manifesto promise of £9.2bn for energy-efficient buildings, yet Rishi Sunak’s Green Homes Grants announced in 2020 was scrapped after six months, after low uptake and poor administration, and a year has now passed since the government promised to publish its ‘Heat and Buildings Strategy’, it would appear this is not top of anyone’s agenda.
Putting it all together we will at some point have to face the problem, possibly the biggest domestic infrastructure project in the UK’s history, acting now could make it less painful.
How do you alert people to this?
They have certainly upped the pressure, turning the public against them via news outlets. Hardly a new tactic is it!
"I'm just going work mate these jobless layabouts stopping emergency vehicles". I've heard the emergency vehicles thing used to justify all parking restrictions and this isn't the first protest where the general public are encouraged to view them as pond life/jobless layabouts stopping them getting to work.
See when Labour polices are discussed and they get jobless musicians (on the news only a few weeks ago) and single mothers on benefits to give their opinions. They know full well, it will send a good proportion of working class voters into a head spinning rage, throwing their slippers at the telly!
SWAMPY HAS ENTERED THE CHAT...
Busted...
tj - don't get me wrong I'm 100% with you that something needs to be done; just possibly not an outright ban. To me the obvious solution would be to make it a judicial decision that has two parts:
1. If there is a perception of possible bias / unfairness then the person can be forced out of the post.
2. If there is actual proof of misconduct then criminal offence.
Of course the gov would never allow those pesky judges to get involved.
(Whilst many people might perceive judges to be part of the elite and liable to be "in on it", I think in the UK they are actually pretty good at knowing when there may be either an actual or perceived risk of bias and recusing themselves so would likely be able to apply that logic to others well).
Good points – but we could start by having a maximum donation limit and not just trusting the parties to do the right thing. There are clear conflicts of interests happening all the time and the electoral commission is toothless.
Yes I'd not be opposed to that (although the thing about max donations is the sneaky people find ways to circumvent. I will donate, my wife will donate, my son will donate, my ltd co will donate - now we have 4x the max donation!... Personally I'd (1) make ALL donations public (name and town of every donor). (2) make all companies, and non-incorporated organisation list their donations publically - like employers have to for gender pay stuff etc.
Well yes, it’s a full time job. MP pay is less than most lawyers and doctors and they should be closer to the coal face dealing with their constituents.
I wouldn't tell that to a junior doctor or legal aid solicitor! I'm not suggesting professionals would remain involved in their specialism for the cash - I'm suggesting that being involved in 2021's health situation or courts crisis gives a very different insight to having been involved 15 years ago when you first got elected.
No reason a doctor could not go back to their day job,
no easy if you've not treated a patient for 10 yrs!
but taking a board position at a private company that got awarded a nhs contract during their tenure, no. Every politician should have a blacklist of companies they can not work for.
In principle I agree - but is that all MP's or only those in government? or only those in ministerial positions? or only those in ministerial positions in depts that were linked to that contract? What if its a £100M company that got a £50k contract and it had been getting those sort of contracts for the last 20 years. There's so much nuance around individual people, contracts, roles that I'm not convinced a blanket ban makes sense. I think there is already a committee that looks at these things - but they are a bunch of other MPs which is like asking teenagers to grade their own exams!
Slightly OT but am I the only one to notice the special brand of STW hypocrisy at play in this thread. Yes the driver is a dick but attacking the way she looks would have a lot of posters wringing their hands and virtual crying in most other threads. Why’s it okay here? Christ I’ve seen people jumping to Priti Patel’s defence when people bring up her appearance.
No @funkmasterp you are not the only one to spot it and think FFS - but you might be the first to have called it out. I'm just as amazed at the number of people who seem to condone her driving though.
Yes the driver is a dick but attacking the way she looks would have a lot of posters wringing their hands and virtual crying in most other threads. Why’s it okay here?
Her behaviour, for me, is ugly enough to warrant removal of any respect, and there are times when saying you disapprove just doesn't vent what is deserved.
So calling someone a fat slag is acceptable if you very strongly disapprove of their behaviour?
I thought calling someone a fat slag always signified disapproval?
Middle-class liberal sensibilities can be hard to fathom sometimes.
So calling someone a fat slag is acceptable if you very strongly disapprove of their behaviour?
I didn't, that would be you adjusting the context, I said that in the absence of being able to do or say anything human frustrations will leak, and I'm not going to get all PC in her defense.
I’m not going to get all PC in her defense
So it would appear..... something about human frustration leaking, apparently.
I have no idea what you mean about me "adjusting the context" btw.
I was aware that it wasn't you who referred to her as a fat slag, I was responding to your justification of using that description.
Edit : Actually I can't remember precisely who used the term fat slag and I can't be bothered to trawl through to check. So I'm simply assuming it wasn't you.
No @funkmasterp you are not the only one to spot it and think FFS – but you might be the first to have called it out. I’m just as amazed at the number of people who seem to condone her driving though.
I spotted it but the mood of the thread made me think pointing it out wouldn't go down well.
If you have to resort to personal insults to support your arguments, take a couple of minutes to think it through a bit more. Of all the things to criticise her for......
the GPS in range rovers is obviously rubbish. Coundnt find an alternative route? deary me.
I'm much more aware of the need for houses to be insulated now thanks to these protests.
lolz @: squirrelking
From the headlines today.
This is the sort of thing we're up against:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-58982445
This is the sort of thing that governments can do, and which protestors in the UK are trying to push for:
The problem needs macro solutions. Only governments can do this. We as UK citizens can only influence our government, not China's.
Our government could become an international model, both practically and morally. But the opposite has happened.
Look at this thread.
It's depressing. We're a bunch of cyclists, we all love the outdoors - and we're sitting here bickering among ourselves about what, exactly? How come we can't agree?
We're hopeless. (Humans, I mean.)
Of all the things to criticise her for……
And all the more so as her weight management issues didn't appear particularly severe.
I have no idea about her promiscuity though. Presumably that reference was based on her being a woman.
Hook, line and sinker. You’ve swallowed all the narrative. If you were talking about the Tory party and their lobby group mates you might have a point.
What 'narrative'? It was a valid question. I am 100% sympathetic to the reasons why IB are protesting, just not supportive of their actions. And regarding the right to protest; we have an increasingly nasty government who really don't want anyone protesting at all, and will try to push all sorts of new legislation to prevent this; oh look, they are.
All they need, is for public opinion to swing against such protests, and they'll have their 'support'. Should we allow such a tiny minority to wilfully cause damage to what rights we have left? That's a question.
I believe this to be a load of wheelbarrow content, if you’re moving bull manure from one place to another, in a wheelbarrow.
Many people were adversely economically affected by XR protests, people who are already on low incomes and cannot afford to lose money or even their jobs. This is a fact. I personally know several people who were affected in such a manner; multiply that across a city the size of London, and you have an awful lot of people affected. So; you might chose to ignore this fact, but that's your privilege. And that's the key thing here; privilege. If you can afford to take time off work/give up your job to protest what is truly a vital issue, then more power to you. But if your actions are negatively impacting on people who enjoy less privilege than yourself, then you have to stop and reconsider what you are doing. Because ignoring them just sends the message that they don't matter, that them losing money/work is inconsequential. Trouble is; who then does all those jobs YOU rely on? Yes. That.
Even XR themselves thought such tactics were counter-productive:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/20/extinction-rebellion-tube-protest-was-a-mistake
To be fair its always nice when your stereotypes are confirmed. Brash unnecessary car, driven by brash obnoxious woman.
When I first watch the clip I genuinely though she said: "I need to take my son to school he's illiterate" and my initial reaction was "well that fit's"
I was really disappointed when I watched it again and it turned out "illiterate" was "eleven"
fit’s
Oh dear 😐
If you can afford to take time off work/give up your job to protest
My friend, who is braver than I am, cannot afford to lose her job.
But she gave up her own holiday time to protest, which ended up with her in the cells (the coppers were sympathetic, by the way, but had their job to do).
Because of the nature of her job, she very nearly lost it - but was upfront and honest with her bosses, who allowed her to stay.
I couldn't have done that, but I'm glad there are people like her who are strong enough to prioritise one thing over another.
This thread is full of people talking in absolutes. We're probably all right, in some degree and from some angle.
Arguing from different poles doesn't get us anywhere.
Yes, some protests are probably counter-productive. That doesn't mean that positive action is the wrong choice, when all other avenues of protest have been removed or proven useless.
And, actually, if we're going to fix this problem, we need to get used to the idea that an awful lot of jobs are going to be lost. We find that hard to stomach.
But I think we'll all find complete climate breakdown a lot harder to get along with.
