Because that helps persuade people and politicians are swayed by what they think the voters want
Really?
How well has that theory worked out so far then?
How many people do you think XR’s activities over the last couple of years have sucessfully ‘persuaded’?
I don’t see how her travels are actually doing anything to contribute to a solution.
Why do her “travels” (in this case a series of trains to get to Glasgow) upset you, but your own do not? Is it because you don’t want action to slow down climate change? Do you fear the changes will come, and might limit your life choices in an effort to hand over a less damaged planet to the younger and future generations? If you consider her “travels” pointless, and ultimately fruitless, why does that bother you? Would that make them any different to you own?
She is very good at generating media noise but so what, how does that help with a solution?
Yes, ssshhh… keep quiet and the governments will get around to making changes eventually. You don’t believe that for a second. It is very unlikely governments will act in time unless pushed. You know that.
If you REALLY thought that she had no chance of helping others influence governments and their policies, you wouldn’t even bother commenting on her. You are slamming her as being ineffectual, but I think you fear that she and others might end up effecting change that you don’t want to see. If not, why do you care what she does or says?
Lots of errors in that post… but seems to take 15 mins to load an edit page… so they’ll have to stand. You get the gist.
How well has that theory worked out so far then?
Better than most.
I suppose you're comparing her to the scientists working on world saving technology? Where are they getting funding? Do you think they'd get as much if it weren't front page news? Who's done more than most to put it on front pages?
I've read your posts and I'm still not sure how you can criticise Thunberg. You seem to be arguing that she's worthless because she isn't working on a solution herself. Well, the solution is political, politics is about public opinion so I'd argue that she is very much working on it.
Who does get your approval?
How many people do you think XR’s activities over the last couple of years have sucessfully ‘persuaded’
Im pretty sure Greta isn't XR
I can think of around 25 people (most of whom I know) who were persuaded by a couple of XR speakers to increase their level of action on climate change. For some that actively means lobbying people they know, for others that means improving their personal actions. For some that means XR type of actions
chrismac
Yeah, she can stay; you on the other hand can avail yourself of the rapidly rising sea levels.
I’m more than happy to listen to scientists and the academic community.
Does not jibe well with
I love going to the Alps to ski and ride and have no intention of stopping.
Greta's going to grow up, as an adult she'll be a force to reckon with.
People can still ski, can still fly, can still buy certain things, but do it in moderation.
Instead of having mini European city breaks 3 or 4 times a year, just have the one. Or maybe fly once and stay in that place longer. Make it a treat.
We'll certainly be going skiing in the future, but we'll go once and not fly.
I am suspicious how secretive she is about who is funding all of this travelling and getting her invited speak at these events
Can you provide proof of Greta Thunberg being secretive about who funds her traveling and invites her to speak at events?
I am not aware of this alleged secrecy. On the contrary she appears to be very open, but it would concern me if I thought she was being economical with the truth.
Nothing at all. I just don’t see what all the adulation is for. I am suspicious how secretive she is about who is funding all of this travelling and getting her invited speak at these events. Your average teenager wouldn’t get a look in
So you're basing your irrational dislike on her on absolutely nothing but your own 'suspicion'?
Because that's scientific...
How many people on this thread would stop buying new bikes to reduce carbon emissions? How many only ever ride from home to reduce emissions? How many don’t have kids to reduce carbon emissions? The reality is that everyone is good at coming up with suggestions and solutions that don’t affect them.
We participate in a leisure activity that does nothing but harm to the planet yet we collectively keep buying more and more stuff. Travel more and more to enjoy it. Read magazines written by people who have traveled to write the story or to help sell more stuff.
Our leaders will just follow the own self interests just like we do. They aren’t going to fix the problem
Chrismac actually has a point here though; the truth is, for all the virtue signalling going on, the vast majority of us really don't do anything beyond mere token efforts, to actively change our lifestyles. People are still going to live in bigger houses than they need, some distance from where they work, and will need to use polluting methods of transport to get to work, shops, leisure activities etc. We'll still be 'upgrading' our bikes, our computers, our 'phones, our white goods, TVs, etc etc. And we'll never give up all our comforts and luxuries, let's face it. We'll still quietly be going on our holidays wherever we like, because we deserve it.
I wish we had a govt who said "We will lead the way and show other countries what's possible"
Instead it's all about blaming/shaming other countries.
for all the virtue signalling going on
I don't think many people are virtue signalling here. We're mostly pointing out how ****ed we are. Virtue signalling would be going on about how green we personally are, and I don't see a ton of that.
I don’t think many people are virtue signalling here.
I'd be amazed if anyone on this forum is truly making the necessary efforts to address their own consumption beyond a token effort. Based on real world experience; people just don't, regardless of what they might say. People are devious. You don't know what unnecessary journeys someone else has made, or what new things they've bought this month; people aren't going to admit they're being hypocritical, as a general rule. If you laid out everyones actual behaviour, as opposed to what they might claim, then you'll see the problem. And even so; everyone expects everyone else to change, they won't want to give up their own choices readily. Simple human nature. We're inherently greedy and selfish. That's the root of the problem.
the vast majority of us really don’t do anything beyond mere token efforts
Speak for yourself.
Anyway, all the big changes need to be instigated by governments. The whole... "makes small changes in your own lives" is pissing in the wind... it's all warm and cuddly to think that "if we all make a change" we'll make enough of a change... but it's sadly not true, governments need to act.
Speak for yourself.
I am. But I don't see the vast majority of others being any different in real terms. And I'm just being blunt about the reality of what most of us actually do, in terms of considering the issues. Change can only start if we're all honest with ourselves. No point saying 'speak for yourself' when it's very likely you're not much different to anyone else in terms of actively making steps to change your lifestyle.
Anyway, all the big changes need to be instigated by governments
And while you're waiting for that, stick another chunk of polar ice in my drink, would you? Thanks.
the vast majority of us really don’t do anything beyond mere token efforts
FFS how many times? Individual action is a smokescreen, a red herring, and the greatest form of greenwash. It distracts and diverts attention and responsibility away from producers and onto consumers, ensuring that the corporations and the people who get rich from them can carry on regardless, while those at the bottom who are least empowered to solve the problem shoulder all the responsibility.
We'll all have to change eventually, but the key word is *all*. That doesn't require us to change our lives now whilst everyone else carries on as normal, instead it requires us to demand that governments force us to change and then accept it when it comes.
Someone on R4 just now hit the nail on the head "Politicians know exactly what to do, they just don't know how to get re-elected after doing it"
This is the problem we are not ready for a reduction in our standard of living. In order to stop climate change there is going to have to be a massive change in our lives.
China is often berated but their 1 child policy probably did more to slow climate change than any other policy from any other government.
it’s very likely you’re not much different to anyone else in terms of actively making steps to change your lifestyle
Well, if I told you what changes I've personally made (I have already as it happens, but I'm not going to bang on about it, and it really isn't the point)... then you'd find some other way of dismissing the messages that I'm supporting, and the ones that Thunberg is trying to keep live and make us see as pressing, and the ones IB are trying to force... and that is that governments need to act now.
FFS how many times?
...Will you totally misunderstand something? I don't know. I really don't know...
Well, if I told you what changes I’ve personally made (I have already as it happens, but I’m not going to bang on about it, and it really isn’t the point)
So...
"I’m burning gas in my boiler right now. I have a diesel car parked outside."
Great. Crack on.
And there you go... shifting our energy consumption can't be achieved personally. As it happens, despite being irrelevant, I use the car once a month, have done the insulation we can in this house, ripped out the gas hobs, and use the gas central heating as little as possible. As I said, irrelevant, because as an individual I can't transform public transport, or energy generation or distribution, or insulate social housing and other rented homes... and the people living in them sure as hell can't. Blaming the end user for not making the changes that only the government can instigate is old and boring now.
China is often berated but their 1 child policy probably did more to slow climate change than any other policy from any other government.
Technically that is correct but you only have to look at the figures to know that it's over consumption by the wealthy in the developed world that is more of a problem than having more children in the developing world.
“Politicians know exactly what to do, they just don’t know how to get re-elected after doing it”
The more I think of it the more I think democracy as it currently exists is for the birds. The future is going to require some sort of eco-communist state. Private enterprise will still exist, as will rich people, but only with the consent of the state, and ultimately the state can only operate with the consent of the people.
China is an interesting case, it's massively authoritarian and does some horrific stuff, but it also has the power to make sweeping changes and it often does. For instance it wiped out bitcoin mining almost overnight. It's also cracking down on corporate and government corruption (yeah yeah I know it's not perfect) and I have no doubt they'll rapidly transition to carbon free infrastructure when it suits them.
The problem isn't China, the problem is western states and russia, who operate at the behest of oligarchs. If we can't challenge their power we're doomed, and our current democratic structures are completely unfit for purpose in this regard.
And there you go… shifting our energy consumption can’t be achieved personally. As it happens, despite being irrelevant, I use the car once a month, have done the insulation we can in this house, ripped out the gas hobs, and use the gas central heating as little as possible.
Like I said; token efforts. It requires a much larger commitment than simple changes like that, which probably don't impact on your actual comfort and convenience much if at all. If we ALL make such changes, then yes, that can make a (small) difference, but it's all the stuff people, including yourself, aren't admitting, such as number of holidays per year, or length/type of car journey, what temp you have your thermo set at, etc etc. You could have made all those changes yet still consume more energy/create more pollution than someone else.
It's things like not having a car at all, not making those ultimately unnecessary journeys (you really don't need to go to IKEA for more flat pack furniture or some tealights, you really don't), having your own energy generation, living in a smaller home, living closer to work, not buying new stuff likebikes on a regular basis, fixing things, etc etc. And:
it’s over consumption by the wealthy in the developed world that is more of a problem than having more children in the developing world.
Fact is that most of us are only making these token efforts cos it's fashionable to say you are. When the reality is that it's pissing in the wind. Blaming others cos they don't recycle, or having their heating on one degree higher, or whatever, is just 'othering' the issue. WE are the problem, only WE can change US.
It requires a much larger commitment than simple changes like that
It takes the action of governments.
I don’t know why you want to audit my life, as I’ve said the big changes can’t be made by any of us as individuals. As it happens, I haven’t flown for 15 years, and have cut meat down to once a fortnight, despite loving it (and personally liking livestock farming).
I don’t know why you want to audit my life, as I’ve said the big changes can’t be made by any of us as individuals. As it happens, I haven’t flown for 15 years, and have cut meat down to once a fortnight, despite loving it (and personally liking livestock farming).
I really couldn't give a toss whatever virtue signalling you might claim on an internet forum. YOU are the one trying to prove your green credentials. But it's really not about YOU. It's about US. So try to stop talking about yourself.
It takes the action of governments.
It takes the action of society. WE are society. WE have to change collectively. Why are you still sitting around waiting for governments to do anything? My ice has melted...
Because, the government has all the big levers to pull… we can’t touch them.
We can't? We really can't? Oh well no point trying then.
IMHO Bridges and Kelvin are both correct. We can do more as individuals, but it takes concerted gov action to really make the shift.
Kelvin, perhaps the only way to then shift politicians is for it to become such a front and centre issue for voters, that if they do NOT take action in a major way against climate change, then they will not get voted in again.
Bridges, it then, yes, becomes about individual actions, but those actions are done to ensure that elections are then driven by active, constructive and aggressive climate change policy.
May be talking bollocks, I don't often get involved in argum-alympic threads, but I think you are both absolutely correct.
Why are you still sitting around waiting for governments to do anything?
Because they're the only ones that can affect meaningful change. If everyone in Britain adopted a MUCH lower impact lifestyle that would only make a small difference. It needs a massive concerted plan on many fronts. It's all well and good telling us to travel less (for example) but when our boss makes us travel to work or fly somewhere under thread of disciplinary action what the hell are we going to do? It needs governments to disincentivise that.
There's no one big problem here, there are thousands of small ones. The single most effective tactic is probably the ballot box, and for that to work it needs public opinion. So yes, talking about it IS probably the most effective tactic. And berating others is probably one of the worst, because it leads to resentment and entrenchment.
Why are you still sitting around waiting for governments to do anything?
There are people out there doing just what you suggest, yet you've already condemned them for getting in the way of innocent working people who are just going about their everyday business. What do you want? You can't build consensus on change without pushing the boundaries, and that's exactly what IB are doing.
Of course, I think we all know the real problem you have with IB. It's that they're middle class types who are probably well enough off that they don't have to work or in a position where they don't have to fear losing their jobs. You really need to snap out of your 1970s class war mentality. Climate change is a much bigger issue than class justice, and the solution to it is also the solution to inequality. You just don't seem to like the fact that it's not the working class leading the fight to fix it.
There are people out there doing just what you suggest
They're not, they're just
getting in the way of innocent working people who are just going about their everyday business
You can’t build consensus on change without pushing the boundaries, and that’s exactly what IB are doing.
They're not. They're just pissing everybody off, and turning most people off their cause. Oh look; they've changed their tactics because they realised how ****ing stupid they were.
Of course, I think we all know the real problem you have with IB. It’s that they’re middle class types who are probably well enough off that they don’t have to work or in a position where they don’t have to fear losing their jobs. You really need to snap out of your 1970s class war mentality. Climate change is a much bigger issue than class justice, and the solution to it is also the solution to inequality. You just don’t seem to like the fact that it’s not the working class leading the fight to fix it.
The problem with that imagined scenario is...
...I'm actually middle class myself.
Awkward...
It’s all well and good telling us to travel less (for example) but when our boss makes us travel to work or fly somewhere under thread of disciplinary action what the hell are we going to do?
'I was only following orders...'
Choice. Yours to make.
‘I was only following orders…’
Choice. Yours to make.
Don't be stupid, that's a ludicrous comparison.
I dunno about you but I have to feed my family, and I need a job to do that. Walking out of any job that has negative environmental implications might be a great way for me to signal virtue but it's not really feasible, especially as they'd just give it to someone else who wouldn't complain.
But this was really an example to show how what we can personally do has limits, for a variety of reasons, and it needs government action.
Don’t be stupid, that’s a ludicrous comparison.
No it's not. Nobody is forcing you to do that particular job, are they?
Walking out of any job that has negative environmental implications might be a great way for me to signal virtue but it’s not really feasible, especially as they’d just give it to someone else who wouldn’t complain.
Which is why we need to work together as a society in order to affect change. If nobody took the job, then the employers would have to rethink. You could take a different job that doesn't involve flying; I suspect you won't because you like the level of income your current job provides, and the lifestyle that goes with it. But these are decisions based on choice. Most people on Earth don't have such choice.
it needs
governmentsocietal action.
especially as they’d just give it to someone else who wouldn’t complain.
That's a bit like saying; 'if I don't take this unattended bicycle, someone else will, so I might as well take it'.
…I’m actually middle class myself.
Awkward…
Well it is a bit awkward yes given all the class war nonsense you post on here. 😂
So just to clarify, you don't think governments can fix this, you don't think anyone should protest or take direct action, you think the people already cutting their emissions are middle class virtue signallers, and it's all pointless unless everyone in the world all does the same things at the same time without any action by governments? Is that it?
Well it is a bit awkward yes given all the class war nonsense you post on here
What 'class war nonsense'? The rubbish that's in your own imagination?
So just to clarify, you don’t think governments can fix this, you don’t think anyone should protest or take direct action, you think the people already cutting their emissions are middle class virtue signallers, and it’s all pointless unless everyone in the world all does the same things at the same time without any action by governments? Is that it?
Nope. But keep trying. The great thing about that, is that eventually you'll learn something.
Might take a while, mind...
That’s a bit like saying; ‘if I don’t take this unattended bicycle, someone else will, so I might as well take it’.
It really isn't. Because there's no-one going round looking for someone to take the bicycle.
Which is why we need to work together as a society in order to affect change. If nobody took the job, then the employers would have to rethink.
Yes, but what I'm saying is that is absolutely 100% pie in the sky, and that's never ever going to happen. You can't convince everyone. That's why it needs government action - you have to convince far fewer people to get the same result.
You could take a different job that doesn’t involve flying; I suspect you won’t because you like the level of income your current job provides, and the lifestyle that goes with it.
There's no need to make this personal, not at all, which is why I won't even respond with what I plan to do about it. And I'd point out that by dragging this into a personal slanging match, you risk ruining the thread and having everyone walk away from what should be a positive discussion on an important topic. And so many people being turned off by the discussion is a key reason we are where we are.
Oh look; they’ve changed their tactics because they realised how **** stupid they were.
Seems I underestimated their stupidity:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-59133016
Question I have to ask, is; what do they do when they need the loo? Soil themselves?
Nope. But keep trying.
How about you just tell us because all I've heard so far is some reactionary bollocks about people blocking the roads and having a go at those who try to do something as virtue signallers. And yet you say you're a fan of Thunberg, who by any description probably fits your idea of someone who is exactly like the people you seem to despise. I'm afraid you're all over the place on this so please enlighten us.
It really isn’t. Because there’s no-one going round looking for someone to take the bicycle.
Another one missing the point entirely...
Yes, but what I’m saying is that is absolutely 100% pie in the sky, and that’s never ever going to happen. You can’t convince everyone. That’s why it needs government action – you have to convince far fewer people to get the same result.
So; the government are independent of society then?
There’s no need to make this personal, not at all, which is why I won’t even respond with what I plan to do about it.
Wasn't intended as such. I suspect similar criticism could apply to pretty much anyone really, including myself. We make choices based on what suits our own needs best. Such is human nature.
And I’d point out that by dragging this into a personal slanging match, you risk ruining the thread and having everyone walk away from what should be a positive discussion on an important topic
Lol! You can't even see your own hypocrisy here!
No, she’s great, it’d be much better if we didn’t hear shitty comments from you. The difference between you and her is that she’s campaigning to make the world a better place and you’re just posting nasty shit on the internet.
How about you just tell us
How about you just chill out and stop making up fictitious narratives in your own head, in order to try and 'win'? Then, I might be better disposed towards entering into sensible discussion with you.
And yet you say you’re a fan of Thunberg, who by any description probably fits your idea of someone who is exactly like the people you seem to despise.
And there you go again with that fictitious narrative.
Must be just me who couldn't care less if the planet bursts into flames and disappears up its own arse in 200 years time
If I was the govt:
One return flight per year after that a £500 payment per flight.
All new houses built with solar panels, insulation etc.
Massive investment in cycle path infrastructure.
Ban on non recyclable/ biodegradable packaging.
Sort the railways out.
If I was Bill Gates:
Buy loads of rain forest.
Then, I might be better disposed towards entering into sensible discussion with you.
D'you know, I don't think you would be.
