[Closed] inspired by shed threads, do you think its possible for.....

with proper mortice and tenon joints etc

on a shed?

"on a shed?"

Why not? Plenty of examples of very old buildings with timbers frames, that have been constructed using proper joinery techniques rather than nails. I accept many might think such endeavour a bit overkill on a shed, but if you're going to do a job, why not do it as well as possible?

My woodwork bench is all M+T'ed. It's as solid as anything. The shed I build in the autumn will be constructed using traditional joinery techniques as much as possible. I'm really looking forward to the challenge; I know it will be more complex and take longer than doing it simply, with screws and nails etc, but so what? I'll gain far more from the experience.

That's fine for you clohopper, but looking at the questions the OP is asking, I think you've leapt too far.

99% of shed builds (even quality self-builds) have nailed-on cladding, so your exclamation is confusing to the OP and misplaced.

yeah, thanks for the advice mate, and no its not confusing, i take it all on board before deciding which way to go.

but no, i wont be using M&T joints or anything like that, ill be using the usual nails or screws. if mcmoonter says nails are good enough thats probably what ill do. but im still a little confused still as to how id be fastening in these 'middle posts' to roof and floor ring beams.....

If you want to keep the posts and ring beams in the same plane then you can either use halving joints or use butt joints diagonally screwed/nailed together. Over a long run these joints may need to be supported when hammering the nails in to fix the cladding, a nail gun or screws would be an advantage in that respect
An alternative approach might be to make panels separately that you can slot between the posts, similar to many flat pack sheds

"That's fine for you clohopper, but looking at the questions the OP is asking, I think you've leapt too far.

99% of shed builds (even quality self-builds) have nailed-on cladding, so your exclamation is confusing to the OP and misplaced."

I wasn't suggesting that they build a shed the way I would. Actually, without skills and experience, I'd probably advise them to pay someone else to do it, or at least get someone with suitable skills and experience to help them. But in the spirit of 'nothing ventured, nothing gained', I'd be looking into making it an educational project, rather than just following instructions for a flat-pack shed (which are generally pretty poor quality anyway).

"If you want to keep the posts and ring beams in the same plane then you can either use halving joints or use butt joints diagonally screwed/nailed together. "

A halving joint is actually a really easy, simple joint to start out with. You only need a couple of basic tools, it won't take long, and it's an effective joint. Butt joints are only ever effective when absolutely nothing will move; a lightweight timber frame will invariably move a bit, and using butt joints will not help at all in this regard. A bit of scrap wood, a laptop and basic tools (ruler, try square, pencil, clamps, saw, chisel, mallet), and you can learn something really useful!

Anyone can put up a shed. Getting it to stay up, is slightly more challenging. But have fun! 🙂

got £700s worth of wood being delivered friday for my framework and decking *gulp
ill get the shiplap later when i know exactly how much i want, and also the roof materials. which leads me to ask for some advice on which type of roof to go for now......

i thought the pent roof would be easiest (it will be) and cheapest (it will be) but wanted a bit of advice on working sizes out and pricing stuff up.

roof will need to cover 7m X 3.2m. lets say its all built bar the roof. id have everything done and the top would be around 7 roof joists across the framework. i say 7 as i believe the best way of covering a pent roof would be 9 X OSB (£180) in 3 x 2.4 lengths across, and 3 x 1.2 down. then theyd need supporting halfway along each length. then felt around £60 for 30m sq.

so the cost of pent roof would be roughly £240 which is far more than i thought tbh. question 1....... is this the cheapest way of doing a pent roof and do my costings seem about right?

now, if i go for better looking, pitched roof with felt shingles say, ive worked out my costs to be......
£20 per triangle braced section of 4x2, of which id need 7 (each triangle support to be nailed onto one of the 7 joists) = £140
12 x OSB as thered be extra roof space now as its pitched (im guessing around 35-40sqm) = £240!!
felt shingles seem to be around £25 per 2msq, so around £450!
bit of extra shiplap for the gables..who cares, the budgets gone!!

so my costs for a simple pitched roof would appear to be around £850+!!

that all seem like reasonable working out?

i started playing around with ideas, such as only using shingles on half the roof (the back half cant be seen) which saves £225 but id still be around £625.

so, like i say, for all those in the know, does this all sound reasonable pricing for something of this size or am i missing any tricks which can make it all cheaper?

cheers, it all seems a bit complicated ^^^ so thanks if youve stayed with me 🙂

That's a big heavy roof for 7 joists IMO.

That's a big heavy roof for 7 joists IMO.

im thinking each OSB will be supported at each end and in the middle, that not enough you reckon?

Glad you picked up on not concreting the legs. Holds moisture in and makes them a pain to replace.

Depending on your final design, you could save digging some holes at the garage end by bolting a wall plate (chunky bit of timber like 6"x2"horizontally) to the garage and running joist hangers off them as I imagine the garage will have some sort of footing that will make it hard to bury posts up snug.

Considered corrugated roof? Ignore if it doesn't suit your aesthetic.

Glad you picked up on not concreting the legs. Holds moisture in and makes them a pain to replace.

Depending on your final design, you could save digging some holes at the garage end by bolting a wall plate (chunky bit of timber like 6"x2"horizontally) to the garage and running joist hangers off them as I imagine the garage will have some sort of footing that will make it hard to bury posts up snug.

Considered corrugated roof? Ignore if it doesn't suit your aesthetic.

"builder has quoted me £1800"

The tools you will need to buy to DIY, will cost you at least half of that. Let alone the materials. Unless you buy really crappy cheap tools which might just about last for the one job. But then, good quality tools will be an investment, if you plan to take on other jobs in the future.

I agree with this statement above. Although to some extent it depends on your mind frame.

1. If your doing it your self buy some decent tools they make a real difference to how quickly and easily you can do the job.

2. Again If doing it your self buy decent materials, dont be trying to save on this and that your'll only be disappointed with the results.

The main reason not to get some one to do it is if your fussy.
If you are fussy and want some one to do it you need to plan every last detail ahead and tell them.

I find when I do stuff I tend to make it up as I go along (maybe not a good plan) but I do think deeply about stuff once I get going so Im normally pleased with the results.

I've found getting others in to the do jobs, I havent given enough info to them to begin with and stuff is never where I expect it.

Assuming that you're in the UK I'd do some snow calcs. I think that 6" of wet snow could add a surprising load to a pent roof of that size

we get some real hoolies at times

i started playing around with ideas, such as only using shingles on half the roof (the back half cant be seen) which saves £225 but id still be around £625.

I re-covered my knackered shed roof with corrugated bitumen sheets from B&Q which are light and not too expensive.

[quote=hamishthecat ]I re-covered my knackered shed roof with corrugated bitumen sheets from B&Q which are light and not too expensive.

you probably mean onduline?

if so, buy it from wickes. its the same price as the B&Q version but significantly thicker.

Now you mention it, I think it was Wickes.

you mean [url= http://www.wickes.co.uk/Green-Corrugated-Bitumen-Sheet-950-x-2000mm/p/240059 ]this stuff?[/url]?

just done some quick fag packet calcs, which show about £336 for a moderately pitched roof. are we saying then that this stuff can be used straight onto joists and would be substantial enough? or would i still need the OSBs underneath?

thanks

you can put it straight onto joists but it can sag, i've got mine on top of OSB.

hmmmm.......decisions.... still, i dont have to decide yet, ill be a while getting up to that level 🙂

I agree with this statement above. Although to some extent it depends on your mind frame.

1. If your doing it your self buy some decent tools they make a real difference to how quickly and easily you can do the job.

2. Again If doing it your self buy decent materials, dont be trying to save on this and that your'll only be disappointed with the results.

I'd be tempted to try and find some offcut/reject kingspan type insulation to put under the corrugated if you use that. Nb, I've overhung the walls quite a lot more than the spec said, mainly to avoid cutting the sheets and they haven't sagged at all.

and ill be buying decent shiplap i think

having just got a load of shiplap for my own shed build (albeit smaller) - make sure you get a discount! I paid just over 50% of list price, just by asking. I got around 100m of 150mm x 25mm (finished 140x20) so nice and solid, treated, for about £300. I expect your bill will be a bunch higher. They did try to sell me on concrete 'hardiplank' cladding, which I guess lasts much longer - I decided against it due to the costs.

For the OSB, you can probably get thinner/worse rated OSB and it'd be fine - wickes do 11mm OSB2 for a tenner a sheet if you buy a few - that's half the price you're listing. I'm covering mine with rubber (firestone) sheet from ebay - it works out more costly than shingles but should (I hope) be more waterproof and last longer

I used 9mm OSB3 on the roof.

I built a shed recently and learnt a few things.

It will take a lot longer than you think, you will make mistakes, but you'll learn a lot. You'll also develop rough manly hands for a while.

If you ask for trade prices at timber merchants you'll usually get them.

Before you buy all the tools, ask your friends, as chances are some of them have done somthing similar, and now have a bunch of tools sitting somewhere getting dusty that you could use. The more types of saw you can borrow the better, and having more than one drill can save a lot of time, plus you can never have too many clamps.

"you can never have too many clamps."

Still not enough:

[img] [/img]

I'd be tempted to try and find some offcut/reject kingspan type insulation

There's a website which sells rejects...I'll see if I can find it.

Cladding doesn't have to be treated timber, if you use the right stuff it will naturally silver beautifully.

See for example:

I'd be tempted to try and find some offcut/reject kingspan type insulation to put under the corrugated if you use that

There's a website which sells rejects...I'll see if I can find it.

You may be aware, but rain soaks through shiplap (or any other wood). You need to paint or double skin it with a membrane in between if you want to avoid a damp interior.

having just got a load of shiplap for my own shed build (albeit smaller) - make sure you get a discount!

I used 9mm OSB3 on the roof.

For the OSB, you can probably get thinner/worse rated OSB and it'd be fine - wickes do 11mm OSB2 for a tenner a sheet if you buy a few - that's half the price you're listing.

douglas fir cladding ^^^

thanks all, i appreciate it.

well, disappointed today, travis perkins lorry apparently broke down on way to deliver my wood and it didnt get here til after dinner. it means my mate who was going to come over and help hasnt had time to, so im left twiddling my thumbs. decided to spend the time double checking sizes and maybe gamble on getting the first post in. then at least if its in the wrong place everything else can work to that 🙂

laid the decking and a post out to check sizes and yes, i need to er....'move some holes' a little bit 😀

ive taken a pic of my new fag packet sizes and wanted to run it by you to double check im not being daft.
my official drawing so far is this......
[img] [/img]

ive numbered the posts so if you need to ask a question its easy to identify which area we're talking about. basically ive got posts 1-8 in a 7m X 3.2m oblong for roof purposes, thats why 8s out on its own.
pic is the floor area. the solid lines are the 4X2. the x's are where i plan to put supporting struts of 2X2. the x's to left of post 9 are for the door frame. theres an extra x nailed onto post 3 for the shiplap to tack onto.

all the 4X2 will have corresponding 4X2 at roof height.

the 4x2 on the [i]inside[/i] of posts 1,2 and 3 is because the shaded parts are the shiplap. and as i want the shiplap to be the 'inside cladding' it has to go this side. same with the wall from post 3 towards 7, stopping at shed front, leaving a gap to see through.

do you agree with my sizing on the 5,6,7 posts? the decking is 4.8 per board, so once the 4x2 is nailed onto the posts itll add 4" (0.100m) so i need the posts to be 4.7? and then that ickle drawing bottom left is the er..'plan design(?)' which shows what i mean and includes a decking board over the 4x2 to finish off the edges of the decking.

there are reasons why im making it a little more complicated than just one big oblong, mainly to do with preserving as much of the view we have as possible, and the internal shiplap creates problems i know. but as you cant see the back of any of this im not too bothered about what that looks like, not the inside of the shed, it just needs to look nice from the inside of the gazebo.

thanks if you can actually understand what im doing here and have any comments to make 🙂

EDIT: looking at the pic now in the thread, it does look a bit small to see the detail so apologies for that.

EDIT EDIT: thinking about it more, im not sure that internal cladding can work, so i may have to just accept its external cladding and all posts will be on show inside the gazebo. ill think on that some more later but main thing for now is the floor, so as long as i get my posts 4.7 from end to end i should be ok with that shouldnt i?

why insulation? to make it quieter when it rains or somethings? most of roof will be over an open gazebo and the shed is just well.... a shed

Think I'd misunderstood the size and function of your shed. I use mine as a bike workshop so want it as warm as possible in the winter.

"why insulation? to make it quieter when it rains or somethings? most of roof will be over an open gazebo and the shed is just well.... a shed "

Warm air rises and escapes through uninsulated materials. Are you going to be spending any time in your shed? Trust me; in winter, you will be thankful for all-round insulation. Insulate everything; ceiling, walls, the lot. And think about the ground; what material will it be? Concrete? Wooden boards? If you'll be standing around a lot, then consider some anti-fatigue matting. Makes a huge difference to comfort, and is relatively cheap. Insulation and moisture protection will also help keep your tools corrosion free.

nope, shed will be for lawnmower, barbies, garden sh1te etc, just to clear a bit of space from the garage. the main aim of this project is to tidy up a real scruffy area of garden and make it into something we'd like to use for socialising ie a gazebo. we'd looked at buying a pop up gazebo anyway so altho this is more expensive it should be a lot nicer. the shed is just an incidental tag on the end as we have room for one so may as well build it into the structure.

btw, of all the wood i got today, some of the 4x2s are twisted. is this normal, will they just push back into line when fixed onto the posts? or should i be ringing for swapsies?

I had a lot of that last year - some were okay when trying to fix but others split. Nowadays I visit the yard and cherry pick the lengths I want and weigh down any I'm not going to use immediately.

It's shit - they're not exactly cheap but are good for nothing once too warped. I also had a post that eventually twisted a full 90? when it finally dried. Pissed me off so much I ripped it up and replaced - a Hulk moment.

If you can swap them, do so.

If you can swap them, do so.

this build isnt doing me any favours, its all im thinking about now, and im up early again today cos im just laid there thinking about things.

todays 'mind problem' which may change the way i build the framework is....
ive been pondering on how im going to clad it. i was thinking i nail onto the 4x4 posts at the end, then halfway between them will be these 'intermediate' studs to tack on to as well. and these studs will be fixed between the floor and roof 4x2s using angle brackets. somethings been bothering me tho as i couldnt get it in my head how itd work out, and ive just twigged why. the studs will have to be nailed to the [i]inside[/i] of the 4x2 wont they, so the face of them is in the same plane as the posts?
and the cladding wont actually be nailed to the floor and roof 4x2s but run [i]between[/i] them?

You could, but equally you can have them all in line.

how mate? cant get my head around best way of arranging the posts, 4x2 ring beams and intermediate struts to make strongest structure.

the ony way i can see of having 4x2 nailed all the way outside the posts and have the struts inline with the 4x2 is by actually nailing more struts up the side of the posts too for the cladding to nail to. which firstly i dont think would look as good, and secondly wouldnt actually make it any stronger, in effect id just be pushing the cladding out a little. make sense?

You can sit the ring beam on top of the studs.

I wouldn't worry too much about strength. Once everything is up and the cladding is on you'll have a box like structure and it's hard not to have a strong box.

thats how ive been thinking itd be originally, floor beam nailed to outside of posts, roof beam above it and studs/struts in between the two, fastened with 4 angle clips, 2 top and bottom. all in line.
but..... then if im cladding the outside, theres no post at the end to nail onto as the cladding is 2" off the posts.

or..... i could clad the [i]inside[/i] of the gazebo instead (my preferred look as all posts and struts would be invisible) but then the cladding would be butting up to the side of the post with nothing to tack onto at the end.

EDIT: i spose all this can be sorted later on, can we all agree that the length of gazebo [i]cannot be any more than 4.8m[/i] as this will be the length of the decking plank that will be the front of the floor section? end of?
so the distance between posts will definitely have to be 4.8, minus 4" (100mm), minus the thickness of two decking boards (used to finish the edges by being placed vertically)
so the whole length of the gazebo floor on view will be 30mm/4.74m/30mm to add up to 4.8 on the surface.

I haven't read through the entire thread so don't know if anyone's mentioned it - the size quoted for most timber is nominal; 100mm x 50mm is more like 96mm x 47mm.

yeah i saw that whilst looking for sizes, seems strange. i just assumed 47 x 100 was 4 be 2 cos its near as dammit, but i couldnt understand why they also had 2 be 2 listed as 50 x 47.

as promised, heres the first progress shot. 3 posts in, my mate hasnt been able to come over to help yet so im trying to do what i can where im fairly sure im not making a booboo.......

[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

frustrating as im at work again tomorrow for a few days, so i wont be able to do any more now til friday.

todays questions......

1. when i start constructing the floor ring beam and support joists, can they lay directly onto my concrete slab (left of the site), or will they need raising slightly to avoid damp? itd be easier if i could work straight off the concrete but if i have to raise it ill need to work out a way of supporting it in various places just an inch or so off the slab.
certainly to the right of the site where the grounds lower and uneven ill need support at the right height. the suggestion earlier in the thread of postal tubes filled with concrete may be the right answer but id rather build it first, see where i want the supports and how high, then sort it.

2. mcmoonter suggested using nails for all my 4x2 beams which im happy to do. member of family has told me he can get me a load of 4" screws tho, so if cost isnt an issue are screws a better bet?
i assume whether its nails or screws, 4" is the right length, to go through 2" thick beam and into a 4x4 post?

3. 4" screws will be big old bits of metal. i assume id have to drill pilot holes for each one? would i have to drill pilot holes for nails too or just bang em in?

thanks

EDIT: i realise my posts arent going in in the right order, id be better off with the big oblong first and then put my side posts in to match, but my other 2 end posts to the left of pic will be postcreted in and im loathe to do this without the nod from my 'project manager' 🙂

4. just pricing up roofing materials, can someone explain this to me please? [url= http://www.listerstimber.co.uk/onduline-roofing-green-2000mm-x-950mm-855mm-cover-c2x14436427 ]onduline sheets.[/url]

sizes show its nearly 2m x 1m yet coverage says 855mm. dont know whether thats sq metres or what, and how somwthing 2x1 can have a coverage of less than 1.

5. an earlier post on this thread suggested that it may sag if not put on OSB or somethings. if i have a pent roof and it slopes backwards, youll only ever see the inside material of the roof, so itd be pointless using onduline. so i think my choice is [i]either[/i] onduline or OSB, not both.
id prefer onduline but itll depend on the answer to Q4 ^^^ 🙂

6. never seen shiplap up close so im going on google pics here, but am i right in thinking the profile allows a fair manipulation for different widths? so i could overlap them by more or less to fit into whatever gap i have?

855mm allows for 15mm (? 3 corrogations of overlap), the length will give 1985mm if overlapping. If using it make sure you support it as per manufacturers spec otherwise expect it to sag if you skimp on supports.

6. never seen shiplap up close so im going on google pics here, but am i right in thinking the profile allows a fair manipulation for different widths? so i could overlap them by more or less to fit into whatever gap i have?

Depends. The cheaper stuff is just tapered board so you can vary the overlap. Most has a machined lip so one board sits on another with a built in overlap. A table saw comes in handy for the last board or you can just overlap it in a casually bodged way. It's a shed. Nobody but you will ever notice... Just as long as it doesn't keep you up at night knowing what you've done...