Can't we force them to work or do something useful?
Ahhhhhh Die Endlösung.....
"Chantelle, Crystal, Chardonnay, Kade, Kane, Kieron, Kyle, Mason, Troy, Tyler.... bevore you start ze public vork you need ze delousing, step into zis shower....."
".... Gunter, das [s]zyklon[/s] heißem Wasser bitter"
I smell troll.... no one can be that inflamatory
Trolling pays well these days doesn't it?
DrRS**** - Member
I regularly work weekends, evenings etc and get no paid overtimeIn that case youre doing someone who may be unemployed out of a job,
yeah, and the person you're doing out of a job>? you're paying tax to fund their benefits. Well done, you. Working hard to keep someone out of a job and paying to do it.
I think this thread just goes to show that the 'divide and conquer' propaganda machine of the traditional tory right is working fantastically well. Heaping the blame on the '****less' unemployed is the overarching objective - get everyone blaming the most vulnerable when in fact the costs/impacts of their alleged lifestyle or behaviour (competing with 5 other people for every job available), is negligible in the grand scheme of things versus the costs of bank bailouts, corporate tax dodging, long-term artificially low interest rates creating unsustainable debt levels, woefully inadequate regulation of financial services, HNW individuals tax dodging and many other similar conduits for removing money from circulation in this country before HMRC gets a sniff.
Yeah it's always the Tories fault even when they're not in power. Nothing was any different when the others were in.
This country needs a taxation system overhaul - I'd vote for that.
Ms you must have had a really short or sheltered life I love paying tax
Thankfully its the first one 🙂
Disagree with your post! NOBODY loves to pay tax, if you could get the same without paying it you wouldn't pay it. If you hadn't needed those things you would think differently! Yes some very good things from paying tax and as the OP said it wasn't that he was moaning about not paying it it was that some people pay a lot more than others. I think even if it is a trivial amount that the unemployed feed into tax they should still be made to work if on job seekers allowance. It would certainly show that they were doing something for their benefits and change peoples opinion on the whole matter!
I've managed to minimise my tax exposure by being incredibly unsuccessful. Sure, I live in a manky suburb that makes Royston Vasey seem aspirational, but other than that it's all going very well.
[i]Ms you must have had a really short or sheltered life I love paying tax
Thankfully its the first one
Disagree with your post! NOBODY loves to pay tax, if you could get the same without paying it you wouldn't pay it. If you hadn't needed those things you would think differently! Yes some very good things from paying tax and as the OP said it wasn't that he was moaning about not paying it it was that some people pay a lot more than others. I think even if it is a trivial amount that the unemployed feed into tax they should still be made to work if on job seekers allowance. It would certainly show that they were doing something for their benefits and change peoples opinion on the whole matter! [/i]
You do sound a bit simple, even for someone young.
Tax is the price you pay to live in a civilised society; there are other places to live.
it wasn't that he was moaning about not paying it it was that some people pay a lot more than others.
IIRC they also pay more for their clothes their holidays their home and their car. I think it has something to do with having more money.
I think even if it is a trivial amount that the unemployed feed into tax they should still be made to work if on job seekers allowance. It would certainly show that they were doing something for their benefits and change peoples opinion on the whole matter
It would not change my opinion.
Discussed this to death on here but a few obvious points
1. This is an expensive system to administer - you need to monitor them doing this work so you pay people to do this etc
2. It effectively reduces the amount of jobs we have so it increase unemployment - councils and in particular private firms who exist to make money will then use them to clean parks, sweeps streets etc. Locally I can name a number of companies who exist by having volunteers and stringing them along about the chance of an actual job at some point in time - they have been doing this for years - why would any company recruit staff when they can get free ones?
3. Its just about feeling like you are paying for them to do something. Given the minimum wage and what they are expected to do to be seeking work they are on less than the minimum wage and they have to earn their benefits. Despite the myths you cannot do **** all and still get the money
Its sounds like a good idea but the basic problem[cause] with the unemployed is that there are not enough jobs for everyone to work.
As for paying too much tax my heart bleeds for the struggling wealthy it must be utterly terrible trying to get by on higher rate tax....i dont know how you do it but I am thinking of you in your time of need....perhaps we should set up a charity to help you cope? Perhaps we should get the unemployed to cook and clean for you whilst you are out at work ? perhaps they could be yours till they get employment?
The financial system which we all rely on, only exists because the state exists and provides the legal foundations for money. To say that you would rather pay no tax, is to say that you think that the state shouldn't exist, in which case your money wouldn't exist, as there'd be no banking or legal system to maintain the fiction that is modern money.
Taxes are great, they mean we can have a functioning state, rather than living in some mad max apocalyptic future world. They allow things like the internet to happen (largely state funded initially, and wouldn't work without state support and regulation}.
That's spot-on Joe, trouble is we have a system that allows some people and organisations to pay nothing even when they're clearly making a mint.
I moved to Germany which has higher tax than the UK, creates more government employment and gives higher benefits. It also has cleaner streets, lower crime, more efficient transport and much more sporting and recreational facilities. All in all I very much feel that the higher taxes contribute to a much better life.
The biggest problem in the UK is the greed and selfishness of the rich, they are far to insular to realise the benefits of contribution to the health of wider society.
Brill well said that man............................................
Hmm Germany has a quite different economic profile though. And you don't get social healthcare either.
I am generally in favour of higher taxes and higher state spending, but the big problem is that without the support of the population it'll never work. By all accounts it works in Sweden, and people there seem to understand why they pay taxes and the benefits it brings them. Like free childcare for instance.
I wish people here would see the positives of paying taxes, rather than just whining about it 🙁
Germany has a universal[1] multi-payer health care system with two main types of health insurance: "Law-enforced health insurance" (Gesetzliche Krankenversicherung) known as sickness funds and "Private" (Private Krankenversicherung).....According to the World Health Organization, Germany's health care system was 77% government-funded and 23% privately funded as of 2004
I do agree though many of our social problems would be far less if we lived in a more egalitarian society that offered equal opportunity for all rather than living in a more american style one with large rewards for the winners and crumbs from the table for the losers who we stigmatise as lazy and ****less whilst the rich moan about paying taxes and we cut them whilst reducing benefits and delivering bedroom taxes and arguing for no inheritance tax. It is selfish and moaners just want it to be even more selfish.
The distribution of commas and full stops needs attention too... 😉
your right, two is one to many. 😳
I'm glad you guys totally destroyed the OP....
I don't have to respond to his massive insult to human intellect now.
I don't have a problem with what the government spends money on, I have a problem with how they spend it.
If we could get government efficiency up the same as the best in the world, you could set the personal allowance at 30K or 40K, and still have more money to spare to improve services. We have become experts at burning money while providing little for it.
evidence for that claim please - any part of it?
[i]If we could get government efficiency up the same as the best in the world,[/i]
Questions;
1. What is 'government efficiency'?
2. Who or what is the 'best in the world' at delivering it?
[i]We have become experts at [s]burning money while providing little for it[/s] talking a load of old cobblers, apparently[/i].
As i see it very few folks on here are in the low pay bracket ,i only get £6.51 per hour ,so have to do in excess of 60 hours a week to earn a living wage after tax.
But i still have to pay it ,so if your earning over 40 k or 60 k a year and doing bits of overtime more the fool you.
I Would love to work less but got no choice .
mountainman - Member
As i see it very few folks on here are in the low pay bracket ,i only get £6.51 per hour ,so have to do in excess of 60 hours a week to earn a living wage after tax.
But i still have to pay it ,so if your earning over 40 k or 60 k a year and doing bits of overtime more the fool you.
I Would love to work less but got no choice .
!00 percent respect for you and I am not mocking you
good man
For me the term 'society' means sharing.
ian martin - Member
For me the term 'society' means sharing.
With you 100%
I work hard and I'm expected to subsidise those that do not. Doesn't seem fair. It isn't incentivising me to work hard....
Well it appears that either you don't need incentivising to work hard, or maybe there's something else incentivising you other than knowing that the money you "earn" isn't getting wasted on benefit scroungers.
Can I have a guess? Is it that you net £25+ an hour even with all that tax you pay? Do I win a prize (I'm sure you can afford it)?
As for paying too much tax my heart bleeds for the struggling wealthy it must be utterly terrible trying to get by on higher rate tax....i dont know how you do it but I am thinking of you in your time of need....perhaps we should set up a charity to help you cope?
You can mock but you try telling your au pair that you are reducing her food allowance and she will have to shop at Asda rather than Waitrose. Not easy.
As someone said above, why look at your gross income, just worry about the net. My salary's ok, not huge by any stretch of the imagination, but my net is enough to fund a lifestyle I'm happy / contented with so I'm not really that fussed over how much tax / NI I pay. Sure a small % may be funding scummers to smoke weed all day in their council flats, but a lot more will be spent on educating my kids and sorting us out if we need healthcare.
Fuss about nothing.
When I apply for a job, and I want to work out how well off I'll be, I NEVER take the yearly salary and divide by 12. I go to a tax calculator and work out my takehome. I've actually no idea how much tax I pay.
I've actually no idea how much tax I pay.
Ditto. Really not that interested.
grantway - Memberian martin - Member
For me the term 'society' means sharing.With you 100%
Sweet.
I currently earn less than you, give me some money please. 🙂
http://www.havingtheircake.com/content/Tax%20avoidance%20-%20an%20abuse%20of%20society.php
A decent article -
To say that you would rather pay no tax, is to say that you think that the state shouldn't exist, in which case your money wouldn't exist, as there'd be no banking or legal system to maintain the fiction that is modern money
You don't need a state to have modern money.
Getting right back to the start... If you find yourself thinking "working isn't worth it any more", stop working- sign on, enjoy the wonderful life that you've been missing out on.
Sbob
First question, maybe.
Secondly if you have kids and receive all associated benefits then probably i already am.
I have to say that as far as equal opportunities go we are not perfect, but ee could be worse. There are a lot of people from poor backgrounds who have become successful. People from rich backgrounds also do well probably more often, but you can't stop people giving money, experience or guidance to their kids can you?
I have more of an issue with what happens to those who just don't have the capacity to be the best. They could be better off with more help and defence againt those who want to screw them over.
No matter how much tax you pay, have a look down the page here, it will make you feel better;
http://www.caughtoffside.com/2012/11/20/how-much-carlos-tevez-payslip-leaked-image/
Good work fellas. The OP sounds like just the sort of ignorant, selfish * who should put his money where his mouth is and * off to Dubai or somewhere equally putrid.
**** off to Dubai or somewhere equally putrid
I was thinking the same thing. There are places in the world where you can earn a boatload of money and pay next to know tax. I'd not want to live in any of them.
You don't need a state to have modern money
Whilst in theory that is true - things like bitcoin exist, can you actually think of any successful currency that isn't state backed? Now that currencies aren't liked to anything physical like gold, they're essentially a fiction based on the existence of a backing bank, and a large number of people who will also believe in the currency. States (usually) provide the stability that means that we can reliably believe that the money has a value and will still have a value tomorrow. Alternative currencies like bitcoin exist, but then you're reliant on a relatively unregulated system with a lot more risks - look at things like the recent hacks of bitcoin storing sites. Or commercially backed things like nectar points, where no one would accept their pay in them, because you're essentially at the whim of those running it as to how much they are worth at any point.
Even ignoring the backing of all successful currencies by states, the state also provides many mechanisms without which the financial system couldn't function. With no state, if you had something, there would be nothing stopping me from coming and taking it. There'd be no infrastructure for me to get something from you once i had bought it, no car for me to come and pick it up. We'd have a simple barter system based on physically available goods maybe, but how on earth that could support the making of modern things with big supply chains involved, i don't know.
I think the OP's problem is that he works too hard, doesn't do the things in life most people do to enjoy themselves. Maybe if you did you'd gain a bit more perspective on things. Cos that's what you're lacking, not a few quid that you 'think' is being stolen from you by the scroungers.
Exactly what the armchair psychologist in me was thinking
I effing hate petty mindedness over tax..
it's a reality, get over it
Awww.. diddums works hard does he..?
Me and my cute little family work all the hours god sends on big complex projects, although they are undoubtedly not quite as 'important' as you seem to think your projects are.. 😆
We get paid the grand sum of next to bugger all for our efforts and I have to say, miserly jealous thoughts about how others are doing are the very last thing on our minds..
Come the glorious people's revolution, there should be a simple questionnaire relating to benefits claimants.. Anyone petty and ignorant enough to believe the myths should be first against the wall, just to raise the IQ in the gene pool, and reduce the karmic burden on the emotional welfare state..
I used to say EAT THE RICH.. now I say EAT THE BITTER too..
It's a common misconception that you need to be particularly intelligent or socially aware to earn loads. I suppose you could live your whole life like that. just look at the PM!
DrS****, you were correct in your prediction of how your OP would be greeted since you combine a truism ("taxes reduce the welfare of those who bear their economic burden" The Mirlees Report), a behavioural comment (the title is stating what economists call the substitution effect ie, [i]crudely speaking,[/i] if taxes rise, people will in effect say why bother to work) with invalid and inflammatory comments on the nature of society (in effect the false "shirker notion").
But while the subsequent hostility in unsurprising, you [i]may be[/i] surprised to see that you have an unlikely ally this morning - Ed Balls! So the Labour Shadow Chancellor is telling a Tory Chancellor that he should cut taxes NOW (including not only regressive taxes such as VAT but also progressive taxes such as income tax) in, irony or ironies, [i]The Daily Telegraph![/i]
The current economic and poltical environment never fails to throw up these weird scenarios!
just quit work and live on 70 quid a week jobseekers allowance like i am at the moment (+ my savings so im not struggling at all tbh)
id be interested to know what you need to spend your money on that the tax man has 'stolen' from you
im a long way from the top tax bracket (when i was working!) and yeah a bigger house would be great, a newer car, maybe even buying a bike brand new (all my bikes s/h since 2002) and despite my paupers 😉 existence Im really quite happy; my family, friends, the odd bike ride life is all good.
I think you should work less, not to reduce your tax bill, but just take time to smell the roses
oh and stop reading right wing newspapers- will probably make you a lot cheerier too!
Late to the party but I'd like to second the comment about goverment subsidising low paid private company wadges via tax credits. It doesn't make sense to me that people are paid so low the tax they pay and their company pays gets fed back to top up their effective wages to roughly avaerage level. Seems like a meery go round of money!
ooooh! Just got a letter from my employers, apparently because I have to launder some of their clothes (uniform), I get a bump in my Tax allowance, back dated!
That will be about £60, or your taxes... for doing nought! (well, m' washing which being a clean sort of a chap I would have done anyway no matter what I wore) for the last three years, do you want me to fill the form in DrRS****, or do you just wanna send me a cheque! 😀
