"You are talking about man and woman as friends. Sorry, that doesn't have any place in our society. We have the best culture. In our culture, there is no place for a woman."
AP Singh, had said in a previous televised interview: "If my daughter or sister engaged in pre-marital activities and disgraced herself and allowed herself to lose face and character by doing such things, I would most certainly take this sort of sister or daughter to my farmhouse, and in front of my entire family, I would put petrol on her and set her alight."
Two quotes from the lawyers representing the Delhi rapists/murderers!
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31698154 ]BBC.[/url]
Very disturbing reading.
I have a friend who is a Yoga teacher who regularly goes to India to learn from the masters, I am always praying/hoping she never comes across any of these types of people, if you can even call them that.
Leslee Udwin's film, India's Daughter, will be broadcast on Storyville on BBC Four on Sunday 8 March at 22:00 GMT. It will be shown in India on NDTV at 21:00 local time.
There's worse quotes in that article, wish I hadn't read it, going to struggle to sleep tonight. 😥
Terrifying that a country with a fully functional space program can also harbor misogyny of such vicious intensity that it would have seemed backward centuries ago.
Somewhat puts paid to the notion trotted out occasionally that 'the war is won' and that we somehow 'don't need' Feminism anymore.
Astonishing that those views could be expressed like that.
Awful
There's worse quotes in that article, wish I hadn't read it, going to struggle to sleep tonight.
Really? That worries me more than any quote in any article.
Hatter, just stop to think about the state of affairs in the USA in the early days of their space program.
Equally awful for many.
"In our culture, there is no place for a woman"
That sounds like a culture destined to collapse in one generation.
Quote from a lawyer? Wow, just wow.
I remember the moment when it sank in with me, just a split second for the chill to settle - that a dominant culture can be absolutely monstrous, yet accepted. What happens to a culture is often just a matter of how the dice roll. And what of peaceful cultures - where there is peace and hard-won human rights? Such peace and rights can be reduced to blood and ashes in less time than a lifetime.
There's worse quotes in that article, wish I hadn't read it, going to struggle to sleep tonight.Really? That worries me more than any quote in any article.
my tendency to get bad things stuck in my head or the depravity of those interviewed?
Time again to read The Better Angels of Our Nature by Stephen Pinker for a dose of the old warm and fuzzy. Feeling increasingly grim these days :-/
Your tendency to allow quotes in an article to disturb your sleep.
Really? That worries me more than any quote in any article.
Being worried by someone else's worries is a bit odd to say the least, esp if you don't even know them....
Footflaps - you need to remember that even a 100% increase on **** all is still **** all.
Yes, there is, by the sink, cooker or washing machine 😆
[img] 
[/img]
That was grim reading,I saw it this morning.
"When being raped, she shouldn't fight back. She should just be silent and allow the rape. Then they'd have dropped her off after 'doing her', and only hit the boy."
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/11443462/Delhi-bus-rapist-blames-his-victim-in-prison-interview.html ]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/11443462/Delhi-bus-rapist-blames-his-victim-in-prison-interview.html[/url]
Words fail me.
"In our culture, there is no place for a woman."
And yet India had a woman prime minister/head of government 13 years before the first British female prime minister, which suggests otherwise.
Plus of course those found guilty of rape/murder, such as the ones featured in the article, face a punishment worse than the equivalent in Britain - death by hanging.
Life for the misogynist in India isn't necessarily a bed of roses.
The punishment if convicted is severe but I'd lay good odds on the probability of being convicted as extremely low.
India is a very big place, there isn't just one culture.
Grim reading indeed.
Dogs' bumholes.
A little while ago the Indian ambassador to Denmark was in high dudgeon because the Copenhagen Post described India as "rape capital of the world". CPH Post may be a horrible rag, but in this case it seems to have hit the nail on the head.
Just disgusted and furious at the same time. Surely you need to be civilized before you can have a culture?
I'd lay good odds on the probability of being convicted as extremely low.
Indeed, rape conviction rates in India are not good :
[url= http://www.firstpost.com/india/a-24-21-per-cent-conviction-rate-for-rape-in-india-lower-every-year-1096959.html ]A 24.21 percent conviction rate for rape in India, lower every year[/url]
I assume that very few rape cases in India actually get reported.
But to be fair rape conviction rates are not exactly brilliant in the UK :
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/100000-assaults-1000-rapists-sentenced-shockingly-low-conviction-rates-revealed-8446058.html ]100,000 assaults. 1,000 rapists sentenced. Shockingly low conviction rates revealed [/url]
90% claiming to know their attacker but only 15% reporting it, according to that article, is truly shocking.
And coupled with the recent revelations of the under reporting of child abuse, official indifference, and lack of convictions, all the more shocking.
I wouldn't go so far as to describe rape and child abuse as part of British culture though.
Surely you need to be civilized before you can have [s]a[/s] culture?
1.
the arts and other manifestations of human intellectual achievement regarded collectively.
"20th century popular culture"
2.
the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.
"Afro-Caribbean culture"
Your tendency to allow quotes in an article to disturb your sleep.
Maybe you're right. things like the quote below tend to pop into my head as I'm putting my own kids to bed. I stopped reading the news a while ago but drifted back to it. I think I'll stop again, the front page of the BBC website today is just horrifying. 😥
[i]One of the men I interviewed, Gaurav, had raped a five-year-old girl. I spent three hours filming his interview as he recounted in explicit detail how he had muffled her screams with his big hand.
He was sitting throughout the interview and had a half-smile playing on his lips throughout - his nervousness in the presence of a camera, perhaps. At one point I asked him to tell me how tall she was. He stood up, and with his eerie half-smile indicated a height around his knees.
When I asked him how he could cross the line from imagining what he wanted to do, to actually doing it - given her height, her eyes, her screams - he looked at me as though I was crazy for even asking the question and said: "She was beggar girl. Her life was of no value."[/i]
the interviews were a chiling insight into the mind of rapists
I am not qualified nor well informed enough to say whether they speak for themselves or their culture but I suspect the former.
Their culture and various religions define how they behave and what values they adopt.
We really need to address these issues head on.
- but of course that wont happen as that would be 'non PC' and go against human rights. FFS.
Their culture and various religions define how they behave and what values they adopt.We really need to address these issues head on.
[b]News update : The Sun has finally set on the British Raj[/b]
[img] 
[/img]
what is the non pc action you are advocating we take in dealing with a foreign countries internal affairs?
ernie you may like this show
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05403lf
interesting chat on revolution for first 15 minutes and interesting methods..bit bourgeois mind so not sure what you will think but i found it interesting and thought you might as well.
Trimix - who is 'they'?
Meanwhile back in good old civilised Blighty
Thanks JY. I'm going out in a minute - I'll have a look later 🙂
I have been following the story. It's very disturbing. I think we should be putting pressure on India to address these issues which do appear endemic is some regions. That being said the Oxfordshire child abuse scandal seems to suggest upto 400 girls groomed and abused. So we have plenty to put in order in our own country
And yet India had a woman prime minister/head of government 13 years before the first British female prime minister, which suggests otherwise.
Of course it helps that her father was a prime minister before her, and that she was in Government a long time before hand, and that she had undue influence over it as well.
Bizarrely, the murdering rapist ba*tard made a point when he referred to "culture."
Indira Ghandi was offered the equality of law that her high status allowed, this can also be said of the young affluent Indians who make up the upper reaches of Indian society today, the same can't be said for about 3/4 of the population who still live in the lower echelons of society.
That culture, be it the caste system, boys favoured over girls, or religion, is only going to diminish as the country becomes more modernised...but with a population of 1Bn+, it ain't going to happen soon.
Which is weird, cause I think in the U.K. equality really started bottom up (Factories, Wars, Nursing, Teaching etc etc.).
I read some of this in one of the Sunday papers, and it induced an overwhelming desire to take a baseball bat or pickaxe handle to that supercilious little bastard's smug smirk.
I'd then use it on his fingers, before castrating him.
Awful though that article is, as others have said, we have our own problems here as well. I suspect that his attitude is not an "Indian" thing, it's a "rapist" thing. All cultures need to look at how to address that mindset.
I read the Telegraph article the other day and was pretty shocked at the attitude portrayed to the victim and women in general.
I do t think you can really blame it on the country though, especially when people still get raped in the UK.
A quick google search will reveal what sometimes happens to suspected rapists in India !
My own personal view is that we here in the Oh so civilised UK need to sort our own shit out before we start pontificating about other countries and their cultures.
Of course it helps that her father was a prime minister before her, and that she was in Government a long time before hand, and that she had undue influence over it as well.
Indira Ghandi could well have been a cigar-smoking gun-toting head of a crime syndicate who personally assassinated her rivals and bombed her way to power, but that wouldn't diminish the fact that she was firstly a woman and secondly, as prime minister the most powerful politician in her country ruling over hundreds of millions of people. Which kind of undermines the claim : "In our culture, there is no place for a woman."
Now if you want to make a distinction between the role of women in wealthy cities and the role of women in poor rural regions then that's a different matter. But that distinction between wealthy urban areas and poor rural regions is not restricted only to India, even though it might be particularly striking there.
In fact as CFH previously pointed out even a "modern" country can provide examples of huge internal differences. 50 years ago a black man living in a prosperous city on the East Coast of America could become a wealthy businessman, while a black man living in some backwater in Mississippi could get lynched for just looking at a white woman the wrong way - hanging black men from a tree was part of their "culture".
😐
Deleted post in response to El-bent's deleted post.
IMHO few poster show the breadth of knowledge that ernie does and , not that I always agree with him, his posts are always worth reading and often insightful even the sarccy ones.
Thank you JY but unfortunately you are completely wrong. I am not particularly knowledgeable about anything. I do see things from a certain perspective which might be a tad uncommon, I will give you that. But that has more to do with political development/ideology than knowledge.
"His" attitude is all to common in India, when we spent 6 odd months touring round the country amanda was constantly getting groped and felt up in crowds - the men would just stop n' stare or move forward and without any sense of propriety just try and grab her breasts or crotch, Otherwise known as "Eve teasing" over there - it happened a good few times a week and certain states/regions were worse than others.
Being a good Scottish farming girl who played hockey and lifted weights she could handle herself pretty well in such situations without my intervention, i imagine a large number of the men will never be able to father children as she always went straight for the balls, as indian men wear loose/baggy trousers she usually got a helluva grip and knew how to twist n' burst them without being squeamish (being a good farmers daughter) - We were in Mapusa market (goa) and amanda wandered of to buy a new cooking pot for the young girls who often worked the beach selling bracelets and such like as she had befriended them over the past few weeks and we often went to their tin shack at nights to eat with them. I was at the opposite side of the market looking through the piles of Enfield bike spares and i heard the most unholy squeal, followed by piercing screams and amanda's raised voice so i ran across the open square and found her with her top ripped right open (exposing her breasts) dragging a skinny man around on his back with her right hand tightly grasped around his balls as she fully swung for him round the head with a large aluminium pot - she eventually stopped when he started being sick (bust balls i guess) so we jumped on the bike and got out of town quick.
I stopped the Enfield a few miles down the road and in between the sobs and shakes it transpired that he had not only groped her but had tried to drag her up an alleyway by her hair and in the struggle he had pulled a knife that just missed her but ripped open her shirt so it's no wonder she went a bit apeshit on him - he fully deserved it and i'd like to consider he'd think twice before trying it again, i doubt he'd be able to have kids anyway.
Ballsy woman!
Horrible experience but possibly the best possible outcome given the situation.
[quote=ernie_lynch ]Thank you JY but unfortunately you are completely wrong. I am not particularly knowledgeable about anything.
It is reassuring to be able to disagree with you. Most people don't have a clue about a lot of the stuff you write about, and that's not down to ideology.
words fail me after reading this thread (and i haven't read the link yet).
it is sickening how some "people" i use the term very loosely,can be that monstrous. the fact a lawyer has these views also beggars belief 🙁
Yeah it's a stunning country and quite possibly my fav place I've been and I'd love to go back for a 6month cycle tour but you do get to see the extremes of human nature exposed and often raw. One of the young girls who we got to know very well worked the beach selling her bracelets, she was from Madhya Pradesh state and her family sold her as a young child into a Mumbai begging syndicate that bound her left arm to her chest and poured boiling oil over it to eventually create enough scar tissue so that the skin scarred over and her arm was bound to her chest by horribly disfigured skin - they chose her left arm so she could reach out and beg with her right 🙁 , the money she collected was handed over to the gang every night. She was being raped on a regular basis by the gangmasters (from a very young age) but when she reached puberty she ended up pregnant so she ran away and eventually ended up in Goa where a christian charity (but not godly-godly types) took her in and helped her through the birth (she was 12 yrs old or so she thought at this time). Fast forward to two years later when we met her for the first time and she had her own craft stall, could talk the money out of gullible tourists wallets in 4 languages and could easily hold a conversation in English, not bad for a 14yr old uneducated Indian girl. Her son, prakesh was a bubbly toddler with chubby cheeks and always smiling, despite the circumstances involved she absolutely without question loved him and everything she did in her life, she did it so he just might have a better chance at a future. This is the girl who's tin shack we often went to and the one for whom Amanda was buying the new cooking pot - it's the wrong turn of words/phrase but what she had endured and how she had coped with it and fought to better herself was utterly amazing and so humbling.
Needless to say we made a decision to help her out and ensure they both had a secure future before we left the country, what was a relatively small amount of money to us according to our western standards was an unatainable fortune to her so we secured a bank account in her name which was an utter logistical nightmare (if anyone has had the misfortune to deal with Indian beaurocracy and their love of getting stamps and signatures on paper you will sympathise) and involved the charity and local elected state member before it was finally legal and above scrutiny according to regulations. On our last night we ate a massive feast round at her tin shack with all her friends and our friends we met out there, said our goodbyes and we left India the next day which was heart wrenching but our visa's had ran out.
I suspect that his attitude is not an "Indian" thing, it's a "rapist" thing.
Did you read the article? Or do the lawyers just happen to be rapists too? I was talking to an Indian I work with and he blames the repressed sexual culture that's been forced upon them.
Watch the TV show.
the fact a lawyer has these views also beggars belief
I am a British lawyer, and have been around similar for the last decade. Plenty of lawyers are pretty conservative people. In a society where social conservatives set fire to their daughters for shaming the family, you can expect plenty of lawyers to at least sympathize with the idea. 😐
Did you read the article?
Yes and before this thread was up
Or do the lawyers just happen to be rapists too?
NO they are not and that is why they did not say rape is ok.
Perhaps you could highlight the part in the article where you think a lawyer condoned rape.
"In our society, we never allow our girls to come out from the house after 6:30 or 7:30 or 8:30 in the evening with any unknown person," said one of the lawyers, ML Sharma."You are talking about man and woman as friends. Sorry, that doesn't have any place in our society. We have the best culture. In our culture, there is no place for a woman."
The other lawyer, AP Singh, had said in a previous televised interview: "If my daughter or sister engaged in pre-marital activities and disgraced herself and allowed herself to lose face and character by doing such things, I would most certainly take this sort of sister or daughter to my farmhouse, and in front of my entire family, I would put petrol on her and set her alight."
He did not disown that comment when I put it to him. "This is my stand," he said. "I still today stand on that reply."
Sexist yes, disrespectful yes, supporting so called "honour Killings Yes but condoning rape, I dont see it.
EDIT: Sorry its early my brain is not quite engaged
I assume you are saying that the attitudes towards women contribute to a society in which rape is more "acceptable" because of attitudes towards women. If this is the case then you have a point but i dont know Indian society well enough to offer comment.
Most people don't have a clue about a lot of the stuff you write about
How do you know that? Are you assessing that from the posts made by folk on this tiny little forum or are you standing Ernie up against the entire population...?
I suspect that on the whole this forum is more knowledgeable - that certainly applies to people who contribute to threads like this. I know ernie hates me suggesting this, but never underestimate the stupidity of the general public.
I went to India last summer, it was shit.
Didn't meet a single person there I liked.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-31724516 ]The Indian Home Minster has found out about the documentary and is trying to get it banned from being shown in India.[/url]
"Which is weird, cause I think in the U.K. equality really started bottom up (Factories, Wars, Nursing, Teaching etc etc.)"
Kinda. Don't forget Pankhurst and her ilk. But yes, people feel empowered when they realise they can do something they were told they couldn't do. Like wartime women who worked our factories when the men were fighting. At the moment, British women still cannot do the fighting, but that will change.
Did anyone watch [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05534p0/storyville-20142015-19-indias-daughter ]'India's Daughter' docu?[/url]
Half wish I hadn't. No words really.
was flicking through BBC4 iplayer last night and nearly watched it, but concluded I'd probably gleaned enough from the BBC pushing the item through their news channels already.
Id recommend watching the Olympus fraud doc on Storyville instead.
While raping her they pulled out part of her intestines, wrapped it up and threw it from the bus. She lived on for a few days. One of the rapist/murderers had this weird little half-smile on his face as he was interviewed. Really felt that he was 'taking his pleasure from life/a sub-human rather than committing a crime against a fellow human.
Id recommend watching the Olympus fraud doc on Storyville instead.
Thanks will watch it, though obviously not 'instead of'.
I do recommend considering watching her story, and that of her mother since. The human side is usually completely lost in news reports. This is harrowing in the extreme but I wanted to hear her mother's voice and her story.
Indira Ghandi could well have been a cigar-smoking gun-toting head of a crime syndicate who personally assassinated her rivals and bombed her way to power, but that wouldn't diminish the fact that she was firstly a woman and secondly, as prime minister the most powerful politician in her country ruling over hundreds of millions of people.
+1
Entertaining post there Ernie!
I couldn't bring myself to watch it. I'm a bad enough sleeper as it is.
So people are shocked that a largely 3rd world country has largely 3rd world views on equality?
Am I just being overly simplistic here?
Not all 3rd world countries have 'third world views on equality'. I found the most respectful culture towards women was amongst the Buddhist Tibetans of Ladakh but sadly this contrasted enormously with what I've seen in other parts of India. I've met Berber women in north Africa who seemed more confident, funny and outgoing than many muslim women in the UK. What bemuses me is the defense of religious attire (aka the walking prison) by so-called feminists in this country.