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So, you'll know that the skill set of [i]anydriver[/i] no matter how proficient they may be, that a tyre designed to perform to its optimum in the prevailing conditions will allow said driver / vehicle combination to operate more effectively.
Indeed, as a highly trained driver with a lot of experience driving in all sorts of conditions you will be more aware than most about preparing your vehicle for the prevailing circumstances and conditions.
Agreed, black/sheet ice presents a different scenario. The only winning solution may be, not to play the game.
Bridgestone A001 all weather tyres are absolutely brilliant, on in November off in March/April, make an RWD BMW actually driveable in snow and ice. So two sets of tyres used for roughly half a year each = no extra expenditure.
There still seem to be plenty of naysayers who still can't get their heads around the fact that winter tyres are not snow tyres, just tyres better suited to lower temperatures irrespective of the road condition. We have low temperatures for a lot more than 2 weeks a year, especially at commute times of day.
I've not really seen it as a costly exercise getting a set. I bought an extra set of wheels to save fitting tyres costs but that's it in terms of cost. A pair of winter tyres and a pair of summer tyres cover as many miles as 2 pairs of summer tyres so don't see the cost of buying them as an issue.
If for no other reason than not having to dig the drive out as it's quite a slope and not possible with the summer jobs in the snow but easy peasy with the winters, I'm in!
Here's the thing though - the prevailing conditions for winter are not snow and ice or indeed freezing cold temperatures.
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rogerthecat - MemberKryton57 - Member
You have to laugh a some peoples high and mighty attitudes...Pot, kettle, etc... who was the one proclaiming super snow driving skills and no need for assistance?
I just pointed out that at some point you will get stuck.
I was just highlighting a point, I didn't laud it up though.
do people really actually use their brakes when driving on snow covered roads or ice?
This!
No denying that winter tyres make things a lot, lot better - but they give you extra traction for getting going and keeping going, however when it comes to slowing and stopping on snow then its all about the engine braking.
Watched a car bowl straight through a corner and into a lamppost, street sign and two other cars outside my house last night - I saw him going just a little too fast towards the corner and watched his brake lights come on, I braced myself for the crunch 😆 He had winter tyres on, but was essentially driving as normal relying on them doing the work....
Winter tyres allow you to make your journey faster and safer than if you did not have them
Yes I am being serious in the same way that mud tyres allow you to go faster in the mud than other tyres on your bike.
No denying that winter tyres make things a lot, lot better - but they give you extra traction for getting going and keeping going
... and getting round corners.
however when it comes to slowing and stopping on snow then its all about the engine braking.
Assuming a 2WD car, why would you put all your braking through two wheels rather than distributing more evenly with 4 using the brake pedal?
Glupton - you think you could rustle up a graph showing the average mean temperature at say 7am-8.30am (commute time)in the winter? I'd wager substantially lower than the graphs you popped up (which already make the case for rather than against imo).
Here's the thing though - the prevailing conditions for winter are not snow and ice or indeed freezing cold temperatures.
When the temperature is below 7 degrees then winter tyres are advantageous regardless of road conditions.
Gluopton:
1. I know. And I knew it would get picked up on but the sad fact is most people do not drive with the care they should all the time but in bad weather I would hope that on the whole people do drive with the care they should. They shouldn't but they do.
But for those who do you could count having 'more care' as expecting more idiocy around you than normal so checking for things that really shouldn't occur.
2. I wasn't referring to swerving on ice. That bit you inferred yourself as I was just referring to general winter conditions. No non-studded tyre is going to really work in ice but on the occasions I have found myself on ice then yes there has been a lot more control. You find that it is a lot easier to recover grip when one or two wheels end up sliding on ice and they loose grip later. You really shouldn't be thinking of swerving on ice on pupose you know 😉
3. Do you know this for a fact about the silica content or is it just something you have read somewhere online? Do you understand all the tread differences and how they affect dry, rain, snow performance etc?
4. How predictable an answer 🙄 Fact of life - some things cannot be anticipated or we would never leave our houses.
5. depends on the situation. In a true emergency my attention is fixed on what is going on up front. But in one of those hard braking situations when there is someone driving too close behind me (and yes I have tried to allow for this by leaving more gap in front yada yada) then yes I try and glance in my mirror as there is a serious danger from behind too. But obviously only if the situation up front is under control - which why having more control is a benefit. I have avoided being hit from behind on a motorway by a 4x4 this way many years ago. I had noticed the driver had been driving too close to other cars and not paying attention a few miles back before the incident and glad I noticed them bearing down on me in my mirror before they slammed into me and took a safe course of action.
I have actually got a bit more experience with driving cars than your average joe and can handle one pretty well thank you but I yes I would actually quite like to get a chance to brush up on some aspects as you can always learn, no matter how good you think you are. Hopefully the instructor won't be have the attitude like some seem to have as some really come across badly. But for now, and after then, I will stick winter tyres on my cars thanks as there are other benefits to them that compliment proper driving and as most humans aren't perfect all the time they can be invaluable if no matter how good the driver is the tyres are not going work.
I'd suggest you actually try some decent ones and see what you think for yourself. If you can't or don't want to buy them then no one is forcing you. It's just those of us who have tried them really appreciate them.
When the temperature is below 7 degrees then winter tyres are advantageous regardless of road conditions.
i've heard this many times. can anyone actually provide some suitable graphs that arent plotted with a non-zero baseline?
He had winter tyres on
How on earth did you find this out? Did you go to have a look?
Assuming a 2WD car, why would you put all your braking through two wheels rather than distributing more evenly with 4 using the brake pedal?
Because you can't lock the wheels with engine braking.
Assuming a 2WD car, why would you put all your braking through two wheels rather than distributing more evenly with 4 using the brake pedal?
It's all about degrees of control. Keeping the wheels turning is your friend on snow-covered roads or ice. Engine braking keeps the wheels turning, lightly feathering the brakes will also keep the wheels turning. The minute you stop the wheels turning, for example when braking, you start to lose control. Plus couple peoples' instinct to depress the clutch on braking and even more contol is lost.
How on earth did you find this out? Did you go to have a look?
probably went over to tell him how much better life would have been with winter tyres on...
fitted some to my van some time ago, and i cannot believe the difference. i have failed to get it stuck, when usually i cannot get up my hill when it snows.
so i put some michelin alpins on my gf's car as well, and that has transformed her car, she feels a lot more confident that she wont get stuck. the difference in braking is remarkable. worth every penny, and i cannot recommend them enough.
3 - know it for a fact.
4 - more can be anticipated than people realise - training helps you anticipate more.
2 - being happy sliding a car around is a great skill to have. Practice it as much as you can where it's safe.
As stated previously - I have tried all sorts of tyres on all sorts of vehicles in all sorts of conditions. Good summer tyres are probably better than cheap winter tyres in winter/snow/pishy conditions.
Winter tyres in the dry take longer to stop than summer tyres at 5C.
Most winter tyres have a E rating for wet grip which is pretty poor, compared to an average A or B rating for decent quality summer tyres.
Cant seem to find any comparative data on stopping distances on a cold wet road at 30mph.... Wonder why.
How on earth did you find this out? Did you go to have a look?
No, I spoke to him while checking he was OK and giving him a hand
Having used winter tyres on both my cars for the last 4 winters I know which I prefer. Can't be bothered reading through all these 'for & against' posts but just in case the 'you need to tell your insurance' and 'no you don't' replies here is a list of some insurance companies and whether you do or don't.
[url= http://www.abi.org.uk/Information/Consumers/General/Winter_Tyres__The_Motor_Insurance_Committment.aspx ]Need to tell your insurance company?[/url]
However, ANY change to your OE alloys are likely to be seem as a mod.
Cant seem to find any comparative data on stopping distances on a cold wet road at 30mph.... Wonder why.
How about this:
No, I spoke to him while checking he was OK and giving him a hand
And made the effort to check the ratings with him? Odd fellow.
I would love to see how that conversation went.
How about this:thats on snow, i'm well aware winter tyres will be better on snow.
I'm regularly told that in [u][b]any[/b][/u] conditions below 7 degs winter tyres are better.
Coming soon to a cinema near you....
"Driving Miss Gupton - One highly trained driving instructor taking a stand against the laws of physics"
😀 😉
How the **** does a post on winter tyres reach 5 pages???? WTF
thats on snow. I'm regularly told that in any conditions below 7 degs winter tyres are better.
They are on anything but perfectly dry roads;
peterfile - you've just passed your test recently. So shut it. 😀
mmannerr - why would anyone do a full on ABS stop in any conditions never minds snow or a wet road with lots of standing water on it?
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/p>
thats on snow, i'm well aware winter tyres will be better on snow.
I'm regularly told that in any conditions below 7 degs winter tyres are better.
If you watch the whole video you will see they test on wet roads too.
Good to see that Glupton was speakin pish! I think I will believe that video by Auto Car rather than some internet forum driving god!
Facts winter tyres are better on snow and ice. They are also better in the wet below 7 degrees.
Interesting how people can't be bothered wasting time changing a set of tyres yet will lose half a day trying to convince the world how awesome they are. Just sayin'.
growinglad - Member
How the **** does a post on winter tyres reach 5 pages???? WTF
It's good to have good intercourse on a subject. Discount the more extreme comments and the ridiculous "if you haven't whatever you can't have an opinion" comments and it has been a good debate. I certainly learn from a lot of the posts, whether tips on safer driving or learning who to keep out of the way of on the road 😯
peterfile - you've just passed your test recently. So shut it.
Indeed. I fitted winters in November, noob mistake? 😉 Managed to get my RWD comfortably over Bealach na Ba at Xmas. Road wasn't too bad but I wouldn't have attempted it with summers on.
What a road though!!!! 🙂
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other surfaces winter tires excel on .
mud
grassyfields (our transit went from unmovable on wet grass to not only movable but drivable and even ability to tow things instead of having to unhitch and push the thing out.)
cultsdave - do you know about the wet grip rating on tyres? A is best wet grip G is worst, (but G and D arent used on passenger cars) There is an 18m difference in stopping distance in the wet between A and G rated tyres at 80kph. Most good quality summer tyres are A or B rated, most winter tyres are E rated. Even if the temperature is low enough to mean that the performance of the summer tyres deteriorates they would still need to deteriorate a lot before they were worse than the winter tyres.
seba560 - Member
Interesting how people can't be bothered [b]spending what for some is a month's wages[/b] and wasting time changing a set of tyres yet will lose half a day trying to convince the world how awesome they are. Just sayin'.
😉
spending what for some is a month's wages
🙂
How does that work? You do know that you can take the summer tyres off, don't you?
Did you watch the video? The evidence is there for you.
Have you used winter tyres?
Will the garage give you the winter tyres then when you take off the normal tyres?
(I know, it balances out over the lifetime of two sets of tyres...)
psling - Member
It's good to have good intercourse.
We could/should just end it there.
There is an 18m difference in stopping distance in the wet between A and G rated tyres at 80kph.
I'd take those figures with a pinch of salt.
The labeling protocol stipulates that winter tyres tests should be performed at temperatures between + 2° and + 20 °
Considering winters are optimised for temperatures lower than 7, it's not exactly a fair test.
Even if the temperature is low enough to mean that the performance of the summer tyres deteriorates they would still need to deteriorate a lot before they were worse than the winter tyres.
From the link I posted above; from 62mph at 5°C stopping distance for winter tyres = 65.7m summer tyres 70.5m QED?
The testing legislation for tyre labelling is worth a read:
3.3 Both the wetted surface temperature and the ambient temperature shall be between 2 °C and 20 °C for snow tyres and 5 °C and 35 °C for normal tyres.
Hardly a fair test at all!!!
[url= http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2011:062:0001:0016:EN:PDF ]Eur Lex[/url]
From the link I posted above; from 62mph at 5°C stopping distance for winter tyres = 65.7m summer tyres 70.5m QED?
well that depends. what if they tested a good winter tyre and a rubbish summer tyre?
and I assume thats the average. what was the variability of the stopping distances. I'm sure they did it more than once...
A month's wages on tyres? Mine were £90 a corner.
Yeah but you drive a milk float, they don’t have to have a fast speed rating for your car.