[Closed] If you're looking for class war, just read Cameron's policies

you are of course assuming that money = class, but I get the point 😉

TBH only the libdems have proposed an even faintly redistributive tax structure and one I agree with. £10k allowances, 50% top rate, ditch tax credits, reduce VAT, up the middle rate of tax. Get properly redistributive.

Sorry, remind me again, why should people who are successful and earn good money pay for those who don't? And why should we redistribute wealth?

Surely the fairest tax would be for everyone to pay the same percentage of income tax irrelevent of earnings. That way those who earn more pay more, those who earn less pay less. Simple...surely?

Let me guess which way lunge will be voting...
So how rich you are is solely down to how hard you work. In that case the bloke who owns and runs the corner shop near me should be a millionairre.
But he's not.
Edit: Your flat rate tax assumes everyone has the same marginal utility of money, and that assumption is codswallop.

The necessaries of life occasion the great expense of the poor. They find it difficult to get food, and the greater part of their little revenue is spent in getting it. The luxuries and vanities of life occasion the principal expense of the rich, and a magnificent house embellishes and sets off to the best advantage all the other luxuries and vanities which they possess. A tax upon house-rents, therefore, would in general fall heaviest upon the rich; and in this sort of inequality there would not, perhaps, be anything very unreasonable. It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.

Adam Smith. I'd put together more of a point, but I have to go out and spend all my meagre income on food now.

Look, we need a sticky thread up there that explains the whole "every person pays the exact same percentage of his or her Income in tax" concept and how it is complete ****ing BOLLOCKS.

Trolling aside, much of the debate around redistribution and income tax is based around stereotypes.

1 half believe that those who are rich stay rich through internal help and luck, whilst those who are poor toil away for virtually nothing with no chance of progressing. So the rich should give to the poor to make up for all the help they received.

The other half think the rich all earned there wealth through honest work and the poor just didn't try hard enough. So why should those who work hard pay for those who didn't.

The reality is as always somewhere in the middle.

deadlydarcy, are you saying it is a good or a bad idea? I would genuinely be interested reading either side of the debate.

It really gets on my t1ts when people come out with the "successful" thing! Successfull at what exactly? making money? what about all the "successfull" people who dont earn a fortune? If the only way you rate a person's success in life is how much money you earn I think you've a pretty sad and pathetic life.

It's a shit idea lunge. Go back through any of the recent threads on the economic policies of the various political parties and you'll get good explanations.

People judge success in different ways, some on how much money they earn, some on how many people they help, some on how many people they have slept with.

I will judge my success on how well I can provide for my family, like it or not, the more I earn the better I can provide. Yes, you can earn not much and still provide, in fact I do just that at the moment but i would love to be in a postion to give them a little bit more by earning a little bit more.

deadlydarcy I would rather not trawl through a load of politically charged rubbish (not unlike what i am spouting here). I would much rather read something relatively impartial written by someone who is not an armchair politician on a mountain bike forum (and I do include myself in that).

Does such an article exist?

Just a little point - reducing the rate of tax that someone pays is not "giving" them money - it's helping yourself to less of theirs.

Oh, and can you think of a more morally despicable thing that robbing the dead?

Define success how you will but you cant get away from the fact that a lot of people find pleasure with making lots of money, it can after all (regardless of the cliches) buy a lot of happiness. A nice bike perhaps or a holiday etc..

I'm just wondering what to have for supper...

Stuffed peppers with minty minced lamb?
Stir-Fry beef in Black Bean Sauce?
Rump Steak with chips, beans and mushrooms?
Pasta with Chorizo and Mozzarella?
Tuna Sweetcorn Baked Potato?

Any ideas?

RepacK, you've got a point there...

I'm confused now.
Is "class" something you are born into and cannot change?
Can someone born in a slum change their "class" by working hard and earning lots of money?
Who should I be at war with?

It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense,

Its not unreasonable the rich should contribute to the society that has helped them or their ancestors (if they inherited) become rich. My issue is with the size of the public expense and what its spent on. Over the last 10 years government spending has more or less doubled and the productivity of the public sector has fallen. In the meantime over the same period productivity in the private sector has increased 20%. I think people would have less problem with the tax burden if they could see the money being spent more effectively.

"if the money were being spent more effectively"

You hit the nail on the head there buddy..

Is "class" something you are born into and cannot change?
Can someone born in a slum change their "class" by working hard and earning lots of money?

It's a cultural state not an economic one and not something readily changeable, imho.

Who should I be at war with?

Islam?
Aslam?
Aslef?
Azerbaijan?

Define success how you will but you cant get away from the fact that a lot of people find pleasure with making lots of money, it can after all (regardless of the cliches) buy a lot of happiness. A nice bike perhaps or a holiday etc..

i love anecdotes passed on as universal truths

t a lot of people find pleasure with making lots of money

Because they/we've been indoctrinated to believe that in order to be a worthwhile member of society you have to acquire lots of shiny things, and these things will make you happy.

Some people grow out of it. 😉

I will judge my success on how well I can provide for my family

Interesting that you seem to see that in purely financial terms - providing for your family isn't just about making sure they can have a skiing holiday every year or whatever. Emotional well-being is surely more important.

MrK its a fact some people do find pleasure in being financially successful, you may not like it but it is true. Its not an anecdote nor did I say it was a universal truth. Not everybody who is wealthy is happy.

Oh Grum yeah some do grow out of it - all I was doing was stating something that is true..

I'm just getting my man-servant to lightly saute me a swans-liver, washed down with a nice vat of Krug

Anyone care to join me?

Ooh! Can I have a packet of Skips and some Tizer please? 😀

Here comes the sweeping generalisation of the day: I reckon there are more happy poor people than rich people in the world.

Think about it (even if it is a struggle).

I will judge my success on how well I can provide for my family

Interesting that you seem to see that in purely financial terms - providing for your family isn't just about making sure they can have a skiing holiday every year or whatever. Emotional well-being is surely more important.

Indeed you are right, but having a few extra pounds in your pocket can help as well.

Its a general truth that more egalitarian societies have less crime, less mental health issues, and a higher level of happiness.
There just seems to be something about wealth driven US-style western society that ****s people up, and thats ignoring the fact that large numbers of people in these societies stay poor.

deadlydarcy, I would be interested in what you think poor is and what you think rich is in relation to that suggestion.

I'm just getting my man-servant to lightly saute me a swans-liver, washed down with a nice vat of Krug

Aye, but I'll 'ave a pint of bitter if it's all the same. Oh, and it's sauté mate.

Actually I am really confused about this whole class thing. My grandfather used to line up outside the docks each morning to see if he could get work. My father left school without a single qualification at 15 and worked his arse off building several businesses before he retired. I went to private school and ended up as a civil servant - exactly what shaped chip am I supposed to have on my shoulder?

binners I'm having my man-servant lightly sauted in a vat of Krug, with swan-livers of course! I'm more successfull than you!
Care to join me in my "happiness"?
Or I might just have a kebab

Oh, and can you think of a more morally despicable thing that robbing the dead?

Not helping the living?

Class war? Get real!

I'm presently listening to Any Questions on Radio 4. My old class mate and now health secratary Andy Burnham is on. He's not doing well.

As the representative of the second safest labour seat in the country, he empathised with his unemployed and poor constituents by forcing through a £20 grand expenses claim for a new kitchen in his second home.

Yeah... the class war's really on in this election isn't it?

It's a cultural state not an economic one and not something readily changeable, imho.

I've read some bollocks on STW in the past but that one really takes the prize.

hey RepacK, i undertstand [i]some[/i] people can 'buy' happiness. i just wanted to point out that this is [i]not[/i] a universal fact, which i mistakenly believed was your point.

Cranberry - If you're a civil servant then you'll be unemployed the day after the general election anyway. So... effectively, you're 'underclass'. Sorry about that old chap

Or I might just have a kebab

Bourgeois git!

About all I can manage is a Chip roll with 'Kebab Sauce'. 🙁

I quite fancy a Blue Pop Drink, but that would really be pushing the boat out.

Talkemada. I've sent my man over with a crate of this for you. Keep an eye open for the Bentley pulling up outside

[img] [/img]

Actually, I'm an international civil servant, so the day after the general election I'll have a really good hangover and a hoarse voice from cheering on the the conservatives all night.

And I'll still have a job that allows me to avoid paying income tax.

🙂

EDIT: ... alongside our socialist, New Labour president who along with not paying income tax ( amongst others ) also gets to retire on a pension of 80% of her final salary after working there for a full 3 years.

Please do feel free to tell me about Tory fat cats, class warfare and socialist justice.

Hang on a minute. I've just realised. Cranberry actually is .......

LORD ASHCROFT!!!!!

😀

I've read some bollocks on STW in the past but that one really takes the prize

Ok, enlighten me. How does a working class person become middle class or an upper class person become working class.

Woohoo! Luxury! 😀

Thank you Binners, words alone simply cannot express my joy!

Ah, your Bentley seems to have arrived...
[img] [/img]

"Ok, enlighten me. How does a working class person become middle class or an upper class person become working class."
Marry a posh bird - it worked for me! Sadly, I've dragged her down to my level, and we now live on a diet of micro-chips and scratch cards. 😳

Please do feel free to tell me about Tory fat cats, class warfare and socialist justice.

No need obviously, it sounds like you already know about it all....

But sadly,

You couldn't give a shit.

Ok, enlighten me how a working class person becomes middle class

For example:
Start out in a poor family from a rough council estate, going to a crap comprehensive. End up with a nice house in a good area, with kids at private school, a degree and a well paid professional career while enjoying such things as theatre, classical music (possibly performing as well as appreciating), art (possibly creating as well as appreciating) and travel.

I know many people just in my company who fit the profile of a working class start who're now clearly middle class - and not just because of what they earn but also on their outlook and hobbies etc.

deadlydarcy, I would be interested in what you think poor is and what you think rich is in relation to that suggestion.

lunge, here's a thing...have a think about it...it's just an interesting philosophical idea really...what do you class as "poor"? You're the one placing such importance on the "pound in your pocket".

Since leaving school I have learn't this.

It is much easier being a socialist when your poor.

but

When you've worked hard, done the all nighters, 100+ hour weeks, worried yourself and sick risked your own home to make sure your staff are paid.

Giving more of that money you've earn't to people wearing Matalan tracksuit bottoms who insist on holding their balls while they walk around somewhat grates.

we now live on a diet of micro-chips and scratch cards.

I must say I find it utterly vulgar, that people flaunt their wealth in such an ostentatious manner. It's just rubbing our noses in it... 🙁

epicsteve...I reckon you and all your mates are nouveau-riche, non? 🙂

Talkemada - sometimes (but only as a special treat), we have curry sauce on them. That's living la vida loca!

You bon viveur you! 😮

Just add boiling water barnsleymitch...
[img] [/img]

epicsteve...I reckon you and all your mates are nouveau-riche, non?

[b]A person who has suddenly risen to a higher economic status but has not gained social acceptance of others in that class;[/b]

While I'd love to have the cash for that sort of problem I don't think it's as much as issue in the middle classes as they appear to come from a variety of backgrounds. Take the private school my kids attend for example - the parents range from those that own significant chunks of Edinburgh to a couple living in a small flat, working hard and not taking foreign holidays to fund their only child's education. We're somewhere in the middle and appear to be fairly typical in fact.

Talkemada - Chapeaux sir, chapeaux. Now get back on your knees, you whey faced poltroon - you're still supposed to be doing penance for taking our lady of the sacred cheeks' name in vain.

Talkemada - sometimes (but only as a special treat), we have curry sauce on them. That's living la vida loca!

Apparently cheese is replacing curry sauce as the masses preferred topping for chips.

epic, I should have used a different smiley there...I was merely taking the pish...

Fair dues to you all though. You're doing very well for yourselves.

Moi? I'm nouveau-pauvre myself... 😥

deadlydarcy - boiling water? What do you think I am, made of money?

Moi? I'm nouveau-pauvre myself...

I've nouveau-p1ssed off myself, mainly because the company switched phone providers yesterday and now our Blackberries aren't receiving email. I'm on holiday next week and don't think a week without email is a surviveable event... Up in the wilds of north-west Scotland (with bikes!) as well so the 3G modem won't be working either.

My wife seems rather happier with the situation however!

Tsk - proof that you just can't buy class

Gentlemen - I think you'll find the meal of choice is donner shavings and chips with melted cheese, served in a polystyrene tray of course

Deadlydarcy - I could give a shit, indeed I do every day, however, I really struggle to understand the sort of idiot who is happy to divide society into simple groupings of something so badly designed as "class" and then spend their lives hating other people for not being like them.

Oh, and Binners - you have my permission to call me Sir Lord Cranberry.

I shall be suitably respectful in future sir, lest you have peasant hunting legalised after the next election 😀

whey faced poltroon

I don't even know what that means but it's funny! 😆

you're still supposed to be doing penance for taking our lady of the sacred cheeks' name in vain.

But I haven't sir, I haven't! I have been worshipping at the altar of Her Lovely Bottomness thrice nightly, and 5 times on Sundays! 🙁

Start out in a poor family from a rough council estate, going to a crap comprehensive

And you think that this has no bearing on who you are ? All the chateau neuf du pape in the world isn't going to change that.

enjoying such things as theatre, classical music (possibly performing as well as appreciating), art (possibly creating as well as appreciating) and travel.

Of course the working classes couldn't possibly appreciate those, you must have suddenly become middle class.

You carry on thinking you've bought your way out. It seems to be working out just fine for you. 8)

All the chateau neuf du pape in the world isn't going to change that.

I don't drink, but I think you may have had too much...

[i]Working class is a term used in academic sociology and in ordinary conversation to describe those employed in lower tier jobs, as measured by skill, education and lower incomes. [/i]

[i]The middle class are any class in the middle of a social schema. In Weberian socio-economic terms they are the broad group of people in contemporary society who fall socioeconomically between the working class and upper class.[/i]

[i]In sociology an upper class is the group of people at the top of a social hierarchy. Members of an upper class may have great power over the allocation of resources and governmental policy in their area, but only to the extent that the power of the state can intervene in free exchange or distort investment[/i]

Using the above definitions (rather than your more arbitrary ones) then clearly it's quite common for people to move from the working to middle class.

[i]In February 2009, the Economist magazine announced that over half the world's population now belongs to the middle class, as a result of rapid growth in emerging countries. It characterized the middle class as having a reasonable amount of discretionary income, so that they do not live from hand to mouth as the poor do, and defined it as beginning at the point where people have roughly a third of their income left for discretionary spending after paying for basic food and shelter.[/i]

cranberry - Member

I really struggle to understand the sort of idiot who is happy to divide society into simple groupings of something so badly designed as "class"

Social classes exist...........even though you might like to pretend they don't - possibly because it suits your own agenda.

Amongst the "idiots" who recognise this fact and "divide society into simple groupings" are, sociologists, anthropologists, political economists, and social historians.

From the Times:

[b]The WORKING class[/b]

A “live for today” attitude; believe that income is the best measure of social status; borrow to spend on treats

[b]The MIDDLE classes [/b]

Invest in shares and ISAs; believe that education is the best measure of status; live in a detached house

[b]The UPPER classes [/b]

Generally describe themselves as middle class; avoid taxes; universally disliked

Talkemada - I was getting medieval on your arse with the whey faced poltroon thing. Now say five hail Kylies and stop whingeing!

Hail Kylie
Hail Kylie
Hail Kylie
Hail Kylie
Hail Kylie

Can I go now?

Yes. And fasten your trousers - cheekybadboy!

"Ok, enlighten me. How does a working class person become middle class"

Exactly like my dad did. Came from a classic working class background, worked his balls off for 20 years, travelled, broadened his horizons, got qualifications, tried other things. There's still a wee Leith hardnut in him but it's just part of who he is. DEFINATELY middle class now, he owned a Passat estate

Came from a classic working class background, worked his balls off for 20 years, travelled, broadened his horizons, got qualifications, tried other things

I think you'll find that quite a few working class types work their balls off - I certainly have. And yes I've got some qualifications. Although I've always found building sites close enough not to need to travel - does mean I haven't made it into the middle-classes ?

You do talk a load of balls sometimes Ernie Of course I'm not saying that's the only way to do it... it's just how he did it. But Trail_monkey seems to think it can't be done at all, so I'm giving him a nice simple example of one person who's done it. Go argue with someone who disagrees with you!

I was always shocked whilst studying Economics just how little movement between socio-economic groupings there really is. The majority of people will only ever achieve what their parents have. If anything the only real trend is for a downward migration.

What's more shocking is the myopia sufferred by anyone not in the top 1% of earners when contemplating voting Tory. Yes your wallet may feel a little fatter initially, but if you can't afford the private luxuries of dave and his etonian chums, you'll suffer in the long run, and so will future generations of your family. But hey ho, he is bloody charming.

You do talk a load of balls sometimes Ernie

Thank you ........I try my best 8)

TBH I've not been following the thread - it's just that "hard work = not working class" touches my class warrior sensitivities. What with the toiling classes producing society's material wealth and all.

[b][i]"Go argue with someone who disagrees with you!"[/i][/b]

Gets boring after a while. Arguing with someone who agrees with me, somehow seems more challenging.

I never said anything like "hard work = not working class" tbh.

So he worked his balls off for 20 years and then decided to stop all this "hard work" nonsense and became middle-class ?

Cool 8)