Its only bizarre if you have a totally false view of police powers and think its perfectly OK to obstruct an officer.
Kind of my view. Given the shit we expect the Police to deal with, the very rare times they've had to have a chat with me I've done my best to make it easy for both of us.
I appreciate that my white, male, middle class life experience is different than many others.
The big problem with police is that they are also people. They suffer from the same issues and weaknesses as the rest of us.
Was he a bit heavy handed in the face of an obstructive smart arse? Yes.
Does that make him an actual Nazi? No.
He’s not a robot and is doing a difficult job under difficult circumstances. I’m prepared to cut him a lot more slack than some tadger who has failed to comply with a perfectly reasonable request to roll down the window. The second he became non compliant the copper has to reasonably assume that he was likely to continue down that route.
I’d have tasered him right off the bat.
He is not entitled to stop a car based on the racial profile of the occupant*
He didn't. He stopped it because the polates did not match the colour ie supicsion it was a cloned car
He is not entitled to use unreasonable force
He didn't. Even smashing the window would have been reasonable - he wants the guy out of the car or to get the car keys so he cannot make off and thats accdeptable
He is not entitled to threaten punishment when no crime has been committed
Several crimes have been committed
Its only bizarre if you have a totally false view of police powers and think its perfectly OK to obstruct an officer.
Oh come on TJ. Even if that's your viewpoint, you must accept that people can have a different view. My personal belief is that the police primarily exist to protect the corporate / political power structures in the UK. Business can't function with people running amok. I can't remember the last time a police officer actually helped me or anyone I know. I know they do help citizens some of the time, but that's not their primary use. I'm not even against that per se, it allows us to live our lives. But I do have a problem if it's done in a racist or unfair way and law-abiding citizens get trodden on. Consciously or not, that officer is reinforcing power structures in the UK.
Whilst that may not be a commonly-held belief, the police supposedly exist to work for us and protect us by consent and that's not what's happening in the video.
I’d have tasered him right off the bat.
Problem is the darts would bounce off the window and you'd likely taser yourself in the leg.
Seen a lot of these sort of videos on YouTube recently, for some reason – a lot of people seem to go out of their way to provoke cops with the intention of filming them being arseholes.
but when its your word against a police officer what else are you supposed to do? The policeman is allowed to film the interaction (providing his camera is actually on) so why can't the person being questioned do the same. If I was stopped on the regs (i have the luxury of being a tall white middle class male) I would be filming the police so I can prove what happened.
Also, not at one single point did this bloke provoke the policeman.
I appreciate that my white, male, middle class life experience is different than many others.
This! Case in point I literally walk around my local sainos putting stuff in my tote bag because these days I don't want to use a basket and no one says a thing. 100% bet if I wasn't white and dressed in a tracksuit that wouldn't be possible.
I’d have tasered him right off the bat.
Thank god you don't work for the police.
the police supposedly exist to work for us and protect us by consent and that’s not what’s happening in the video.
That consent is provided by our society as a collective, not as individuals. An individual can’t unilaterally withdraw that consent
Kind of my view. Given the shit we expect the Police to deal with, the very rare times they’ve had to have a chat with me I’ve done my best to make it easy for both of us.
I appreciate that my white, male, middle class life experience is different than many others.
I'll this this too.
The big problem with police is that they are also people. They suffer from the same issues and weaknesses as the rest of us.
Was he a bit heavy handed in the face of an obstructive smart arse? Yes.
Does that make him an actual Nazi? No.
He’s not a robot and is doing a difficult job under difficult circumstances. I’m prepared to cut him a lot more slack than some tadger who has failed to comply with a perfectly reasonable request to roll down the window. The second he became non compliant the copper has to reasonably assume that he was likely to continue down that route.
And this
My personal belief is that the police exist to protect the power structures in the UK. I can’t remember the last time a police officer actually helped me or anyone I know. Consciously or not, that officer is reinforcing power structures in the UK and suppressing citizens.
And going in with that mindset is not exactly going to give you a objective view, is it?
Thank god you don’t work for the police
If I did you’d be getting a ticket for something.
After a thorough tasering.
That consent is provided by our society as a collective, not as individuals. An individual can’t unilaterally withdraw that consent
Yes, obviously. During that particular traffic stop, the officer was not acting in the interests of society at large. He was acting in the interests of the police force and reinforcing society's power structures.
And going in with that mindset is not exactly going to give you a objective view, is it?
Well of course I'm going to disagree with that. The trouble is that as a white middle class (approaching) middle-aged man I have an experience that is very different from that of others. But I am trying to see the world through different perspectives. Per my post above, I have tried to break the interaction down to demonstrable facts rather than opinions which are clearly biased by our own experiences.
If you are interested in reading different viewpoints about policing, try this. Obviously it's based in America but the principles are generalisable to the UK.
I don't necessarily agree with everything in that article and not to the extent that he describes but it's another viewpoint.
https://inthesetimes.com/article/police-and-poor-people
As I've already stated, I don't believe this is a bad thing per se. I just don't think the average citizen should see the police force as anything more beneficent than E.g. a private security firm that's employed to stop people nicking CDs from HMV*. And I certainly don't think that traffic stops with over-reaching police officers like the one in the OP are in the interests of most individuals - which is the purported reason for their existence.
*Bang up to date cultural reference, I know.
Also, not at one single point did this bloke provoke the policeman.
yes he did. He was obstructive right from the start and refused a lawful instruction.
No he was protecting society by investigating someone who he had a reasonable belief might have committed an offence against that society who was not complying with reasonable requests.
Several crimes have been committed
in your opinion. The police let him go so clearly no crime was committed, which we can only assume the policemans actions were wrong.
No he was protecting society by investigating someone who he had a reasonable belief might have committed an offence against that society
the offence to society being driving a black merc when he was infact in a black jag?
BBC: the man tries to forcefully explain from inside the car that he believed he had done nothing wrong
I bet the officer meets lots of people who forcefully explain that they've done nothing wrong!
Well, if they were in a house, police would have to have a warrant to do so.
I’d hope that a single officer couldn’t break into a car on just their own authority.
A house is private property, a car on the public road isn't.
Also, not at one single point did this bloke provoke the policeman.
He refused to get out of his car so that the officer could check his/the cars details. It's not about provocation (it's not okay for a policeman to give you a kicking because you call him a stinky-poopoo-head), it's about the officer doing his job, and someone not complying with a lawful request.
Flip it around, imagine the officer had pulled over a red car 'wearing' the plates of a black car. And then the driver had refused to show any ID, refused to open the window, refused to unlock the car or get out. Would it be right for the officer to just say "okey doke, nothing dodgy about that, have a nice day sir"?
Also, comparing someone being pulled over for driving a car that doesn't match DVLA records, being cuffed for a few minutes and then released to innocent people in the US being shot dead for no good reason by racist cops is a bit of a stretch.
the offence to society being driving a black merc when he was infact in a black jag?
No, the offence (and it's not an offence in itself, it's just suggestive of one) was driving a non-black car with number plates that belong to a black car. As it turns out, that's because every panel except the roof (probably not visible to the officer from his own car, by definition his head must have been lower than his car roof) was no longer black.
the correct answer to the police when being stopped is always ” yes sir” then the interactions go smoothly.
Unless you're George Floyd of course.
No he was protecting society by investigating someone who he had a reasonable belief might have committed an offence against that society who was not complying with reasonable requests.
Absolutely: the policeman helpfully described the offence as "something".
The police let him go so clearly no crime was committed, which we can only assume the policemans actions were wrong
That's not how it works. The police must arrest innocent people all the time, because there's reasonable suspicion to do so. It doesn't necessarily mean the police were wrong, sometimes they are of course, either through error or malice.
No, the offence (and it’s not an offence in itself, it’s just suggestive of one) was driving a non-black car with number plates that belong to a black car. As it turns out, that’s because every panel except the roof (probably not visible to the officer from his own car, by definition his head must have been lower than his car roof) was no longer black.
You know what dude, what ever eases your unconscious bias into thinking the police man acted in a reasonable way. If that happened to Tarquin or Timmothy im sure the conversation people would be having would be totally different
That’s not how it works. The police must arrest innocent people all the time, because there’s reasonable suspicion to do so
Ok, so lets break this down. Someone a few comments above said "several crimes had been committed," which was what I was commenting on. Not one word from that sentence suggest suspicion. Once taken to the station they decided he didn't? So who right someone on SingleTrack or the police who later decide he didnt commit a crime. All we know is he didn't commit a single crime... but clearly you know more.
Reading some of the above, there really is no application of logic or common sense to some people on here, is there. No wonder threads go round and round in tedious circles.
No wonder threads go round and round in tedious circles
No they don't.
the correct answer to the police when being stopped is always ” yes sir” then the interactions go smoothly.
Agree with the approach (although not the yes sir bit)
Used to get stopped a few times a year when I was young as I drove like a ****er. Police would come to door, I would wind down window or get out (whatever they requested) and be very polite the whole time. I would sometimes even smile when they referred to me as Nigel Mansell (yes it was some time ago!).
I never got a ticket, not once, in the ~20 times I was stopped and no event ever escalated in any way at all. But then I didn't have a camera filming me and an audience to impress...
You know what dude, what ever eases your unconscious bias into thinking the police man acted in a reasonable way. If that happened to Tarquin or Timmothy im sure the conversation people would be having would be totally different.
The driver is unnamed, and as far as I could see in the video, is white*! His skin tone behind the identity protecting blur is very similar to the officers.
*I'm not btw, how dare you suggest that I'm a racist.
Copper who probably had a bad day and fancied going a bit 'Dirty Harry' meets fairly clued up smartarse.
From this point on the rest is fairly inevitable.
I'm reminded of the scene (great scene in a great film btw) in 'Wilt' where Mr Wilt (Grif Rhys Jones) who is a smartarse is being questioned by the heavy handed copper (Mel Smith). He can't or won't compromise on his desire to be a smartarse in order to get the guy off his case, or at least not end up being nicked.
A house is private property, a car on the public road isn’t.
Sure. But you're still wilfully damaging someone's private property.
The driver is unnamed, and as far as I could see in the video, is white*! His skin tone behind the identity protecting blur is very similar to the officers.
*I’m not btw, how dare you suggest that I’m a racist.
An unconscious bias can extend further than race. I spent enough of my youth getting stopped and searched by police and followed around stores simply because "i fit the description" or "looked like someone who committed a crime in the area" The only "crime" I committed was being a lanky kid in a baggy tracksuit with his hood up.
Driver was being a nob, but I reluctantly side with him here.
The cop should be trained to de-escalate a situation, but he seems to do everything he can to escalate it.
Driver was being a nob, but I reluctantly side with him here.
In the wars of the nob, I think the copper wins hands down.
Driver was being a nob,
..as was the policeman.
That's the trouble with people. Sometimes they're nobs.
FWIW I've been pulled over by the cops on three separate occasions in my wife's car for exactly the same reason as the nob in that video.
Her car is an odd kind of beigey - silvery- gold colour but the v5 lists it as being grey. It's only grey under certain light conditions and if you squint a bit but that's what it's described as on the V5.
Each time i've been stopped the conversation has been pretty much the same
Po-po - "Can you open the window / step out of the car?"
PP - "Yes officer, no problem"
Po-po "Is this your vehicle?"
PP - "No, it's my wife's car but I use it for work"
Po-po - "The reason we've stopped you today is that the records show that the registration mark for this vehicle is showing as belonging to a grey car..."
PP - "What colour do you think it is?"
Po-po - "...erm - it's a kinda beigy - silvery - goldy colour"
PP - "What would you call that? I haven't a clue becasue i'm colour blind. Does it look a bit grey? That's what it says on the V5"
Po-po - "Yeah, maybe"
The first time I was asked to produce documents but not the other twice.
The policeman should have de-escalated the situation but the nob in the car could and should have complied and been on his way in minutes with absolutely zero drama if he so chose.
Bad choices all round, but it was a perfectly reasonable stop.
I'm a white, slightly tubby, middle aged balding man driving a Renault Grand Scenic. That practically qualifies me for membership of the Illuminati.
If they can stop me three times for a mismatch in perceived vehicle colour then anyone else is also fair game.
“Is this your car, sir?”
“Maybe…”
“TASER! TASER! TASER!”
Only if there are kids in the back.
Seems many here believe the police have the right to stop you- which they do. But also they can then do anything, including forcibly removing you and holding you in custody without any crime actually being committed.
'Please sit in my car'
This is you being placed into custody. Once you enter the police car they have you, and you cannot leave until they say you can leave. The premis is no actual crime has been committed, but you are being held against your will.
The law is VERY exacting, it needs to be, and the things the police say to you have connotations that you will not be aware of.
Why do you think the career criminals repeat 'no comment' there it is the job or the law to prove, and currently with your average citizen they are fishing.
How many times have we heard " I can smell cannabis" only for no such thing to be found on the driver, the passengers and even when they bring a dog in, who's sense of smell is hugely more sensitive to a humans makes no indication there are drugs present.
The law is the law is the law, but too often it is the police who usurp it, and that cheapens it.
I while a kid got a conviction for having a lock knife on me, and the reason was i was just back from camping, and told them. Arrived back that morning, me and mate Geoff in that horribly long drive to the mull and back. That was the reason I gave, however..
#In court to police said and i quote, they claimed when asked, I stated " It's fur my ain protection" I come from thew posh bit of Glasgow, and A, i dont speak like that and B. Never uttered those words WHATSOEVER. I dont need such things, especially not in Newlands and I've never associated with people who do or did. We were more into Dungeons and dragons and on the atari ,not committing crimes or anything.
By saying such, it is an AUTOMATIC conviction.
In court i got a fine, and in court they held up both officers and pointed out their length of service, as if that be prof enough.
That day I lost faith in the police
Only if there are kids in the back.
Surely the responsible thing to do there would be to let the driver borrow your taser and do it himself.
From what I've seen from the police, part of their job seems to be to try to wind people up until you do something they can arrest you for.
In this case the tables were turned and the 'perp' tried to wind up the copper up until he did something he could get in trouble for.
It was nice to see.
I’d have tasered him right off the bat.
And people are scratching their heads about why he didn't want to wind his window down.
Ignoring the taser, he was filming his interaction. Filming is the only protection you have against the police given that they seem to be able to lose their footage whenever it's convenient. Had he wound his window down the copper would have been able to grab the phone and the 'perp' would have been left unprotected, so keeping the window up seems fairly sensible.
Face it, some people don't trust the police. After watching that video do you really have to ask why?
There's a lot of people who don't seem to understand or accept how the law, the Police, and the society that created them are supposed to work.
And people are scratching their heads about why he didn’t want to wind his window down.
You do know that I am not, or never have been , a serving police officer, yeah?
They wouldn't let me on account of my propensity for tasering.
Bad choices all round, but it was a perfectly reasonable stop.
Probably. I'm not going to go all conspiratorial and say that anything untoward has happened here WRT the stop, because clearly the guy has a funky coloured car that doesn't (at first glance) match the V5.
But...
I don't know how widespread the 'car colour vs V5' problem is, or indeed how many cars of the 'wrong' colour you have to stop before you find stolen cars / evidence of insurance fraud. From the evidence presented on STW, V5 colour mismatch appears quite common! Is there a risk of it being the UK's version of 'I smelt marijuana'? As in, it's used as an excuse to stop people when the police want an excuse to search an individual?
And honestly - who the hell really took perchys taser comment literally? 🤣
There’s a lot of people who don’t seem to understand or accept how the law, the Police, and the society that created them are supposed to work.
Many of them joined the police force which is the problem.
Whichever side of the argument you fall on this one, one thing is clear, if the generally law abiding middle class of singletrack respond the way they have, the relationship the police have with the public is in crisis.
And honestly – who the hell really took perchys taser comment literally?
Nobody does...until they taste that sweet, sweet voltage
BruceWee and onzadog make fair points I guess
There’s a lot of people who don’t seem to understand or accept how the law, the Police, [...] are supposed to work.
I think you might be one of those people. The police were created in the Middle Ages to protect the crown and, later, the business interests of the wealthy. Precious little has changed since. At no point in the history of the police have they been ever been about sticking up for the little guy, the impoverished, the weak. People with privilege enjoy the protection that the police provides and it is in their (our!) self-interest to abide by their rule.
Is there a risk of it being the UK’s version of ‘I smelt marijuana’?
I think the UK’s version of ‘I smelt marijuana’ is already ‘I smelt marijuana’, even if you're an Olympic athlete who's testecd regularly for drugs.
I'm from Bournemouth. Lots of nobheads there, that's why i left. 🙂
Are the police really allowed to smash windows?
Of course they are aidy. How else do they arrest a criminal locked in a car and its an oft used tactic.
With a baton?
I'm only guessing but I'd have thought that your average patrol copper would carry some sort of dedicated window-breaking device like the small safety hammer I have in my car. That being the case there's only one reason he's waving a truncheon about and it's nothing to do with the window.