[Closed] If the NHS is the envy of the world...

because the Tories long since defunded and privatised most dental provision.

You get what you pay for, and that includes the NHS.

Contact your CCG (google it) ask them to find you a dentist who's accepting new NHS patients.

It was sort of, in all but name, privatised / removed from the NHS 10 years ago.

I've got an NHS Dentist, a very good NHS dentist, but they don't take on many NHS patients, I snuck on when my Wife was with them when she was a student.

If you're in pain there's usually an emergency NHS treatment centre available near to you who'll patch you up, if you're not then like a lot of things you just have to wait, or pay a lot for private care.

It is not. The concept is marvellous, free at the point of delivery for everyone. The delivery is second rate and much more money into the same system won"t work. There is a very good reason no one else does universal health care like the UK.

In Surrey Dentistry was effectively privatised 15 years ago, it was virtually impossible to find and nhs dentist who you could register with. GPs now have a 2 week wait for an appointment. My mum suffered in agony for 6 months being unable to walk more than 10m before she paid for a private MRI and the cortizone injection we knew was required (she refused to accept private treatment for that long as she "believed in" the nhs). Took my Dad as long to get his medication changed as the better one with no side effects is 4x the price.

Health care spending needs to rise 30% that's £40bn per anum !

because the Tories long since defunded and privatised most dental provision.

You get what you pay for, and that includes the NHS.

Nope, long before the coalition in 2010

Second yes agreed but its the system which needs changing too

In Surrey Dentistry was effectively privatised 15 years ago

High street dentistry has ALWAYS been private. there has never been a time when all dentists were NHS.

The delivery is second rate

Give us examples of the First Rate that we should aspire to

My better half Mrs Scud, works as a Senior Radiotherapist in a cancer department, she has just about had enough and is doing her Masters in the hope of getting in to lecturing or training, she has gone from working monday-friday with one late shift a week, to multiple late shifts and on call at weekends, and has had no raise in pay for 4 years, this is mostly so that they can meet the targets set by Government.

The trouble, not all sorts of cancer are aggressive as others, but often they find themselves treating non-urgent cases because they have waited a while over cases that are desperately urgent but are higher up the list in timescales. They then have to break themselves keeping their machines and department running 8-8 most days to actually treat those most in need of treatment in and around the ones the Government targets dictates should be treated next.

NHS dentistry is shit tbh, I'm not sure most people think of it as really being part of the NHS in the same way as medical care these days, I certainly don't.

We need to reanimate Anneurin Bevan, there aren't any capable politicians around to sort it out.

Some of the Northern mainland European healthcare systems French, Dutch, German, Swiss - are probably the envy of the world but not the NHS

Guess it depends on who you are. People who can't afford healthcare, probably think "wow, this is amazing".

TBH we just don't spend enough as a country, we don't intervene/educate enough, and social and health aren't joined up enough.

All sortable though

GPs now have a 2 week wait for an appointment. My mum suffered in agony for 6 months being unable to walk more than 10m before she paid for a private MRI and the cortizone injection we knew was required (she refused to accept private treatment for that long as she "believed in" the nhs). Took my Dad as long to get his medication changed as the better one with no side effects is 4x the price.

Find yourself another GP. They're not all that bad, even in Surrey.
I could see mine today if need be. I could speak to him on the phone in ten minutes...

There is a very good reason no one else does universal health care like the UK

There are a few reasons, among them vested interests, venality of politicians, significant private healthcare provider spending on lobbyists and widespread misrepresentation of both the costs and societal benefits of universal healthcare.

Luckily we're working on defunding, demoralising and demonising the NHS so the government can hand work to entities like Virgin Care, who are so selfless that they continue to bid for contracts even though they've been reporting losses in the UK for the past 5 years and therefore paying no UK tax. I can only hope the new £750 million contract they were awarded this month helps turn things round for them and pulls them out of loss.

I always thought there should be a specific NHS tax, I think we have all been thankful when the NHS have been there, but would all like it to improve and it requires more funding, and less Government trying to drive it into the ground for it to improve.

We don't get a breakdown really of our taxes our spent, but i think most would happily see that 0.5% of my income go direct to NHS funding.

Canny say I've ever had a problem getting a dental appointment. Or a doctor's appointment.

Indeed - we don't have that wait at all at the GP surgery I lead...

BUT, yes NHS dentistry is really withering and disappearing in many places. Contact your CCG though.

The NHS was at its best about 5 years ago. It is heading downhill rapidly. Lots of factors, older patients, more expectations, poor quality out-of-hours services, real-terms decreases in funding for NHS and for Social Care ( which is hit by living wage and pensions implications and is preventing discharges from hospitals) etc etc...

Lots of evidence that it really [i]was [/i]pretty good. Espescially for the Money. But what we really need is 30,000 civil servants to deliver Brexit.

Facepalm.

In Surrey Dentistry was effectively privatised 15 years ago,

GPs now have a 2 week wait for an appointment. My mum suffered in agony for 6 month

Anyone know about NHS outsourcing to private hospitals? I've had an appointment cancelled twice with no reason given. Is it a case of private patients taking priority over pre-booked NHS appointments?

We don't get a breakdown really of our taxes our spent, but i think most would happily see that 0.5% of my income go direct to NHS funding

Try 10% and you will be closer (based on cost to each person of £2069 against average salary of £24K - numbers from 2014)

Anyone know about NHS outsourcing to private hospitals? I've had an appointment cancelled twice with no reason given. Is it a case of private patients taking priority over pre-booked NHS appointments

Back to the op. I had a root canal in the NHS a few years ago. The practice said they weren't taking on NHS patients and quoted me four figures (a crown as well). My wife and kids had been taken on as NHS patients though so I managed to get them to take me as NHS patient as well. Whole lot done for about £250 I think.
The whole time I was being treated the dentist was doing his best to upswell me the private treatment- it will look nicer, I'll be able to use more powerful magnifiers to see to the bottom of the root etc.
I soon got moved off his list to another NHS dentist in the practice after that. I didn't ask why.

I've had an appointment cancelled twice with no reason given

you could ask?

I get the impression now that dentistry is about unnecessary cleaning, minor remedial work and referring anything complex onto a specialist. Sounds like you are trying to jump the first stage which is where the money is so no one will be keen.

I'm still convinced I would get a better service from an App than a GP surgery, hook it up to my Garmin account perhaps annual blood tests with the occasional question answered by specialists in their own time.

why can't I find a dentist closer than 40 miles away who can offer less than a 3 week wait to START a root canal treatment?

Because you waited until you needed major treatment before registering with a dentist?

After years of doing exactly this, I registered with a dentist when I didn't have toothache and kept going for regular checkups every six months.

Instead of "repair" I moved to a "maintenance" model.

If I broke a tooth today, I know that, because of that relationship, I could phone my dentist and get treated today or tomorrow.

A Dentist is for life, not just for toothache.

ring 111 nhd irect as it used to be called they will then tell you of a local nhs dentist, worked for me

No this does not happen.
It's because it's winter and the hospitals are full of ill people so no room for planned cases. It happens every year.

Thanks docrobster. I hate to tell you but it's Autumn down South with temperatures well into double figures. 😀

Have just phoned them, consultant cancelled the clinic but they are very busy anyway.

you could ask?

I did nick, see above.

Most of the time when I have to cancel clinics it's because

1. something's broken down. (Had to cancel minor surgery the other day as the heating wouldn't work, and the surgeon could see his breath...)
2. Someone is ill and I haven't got enough staff to replace them
3. Consultant has crashed his car (happens more often than you would have thought...)
4. the room's been double booked.

bumping NHS pts to see private pts? I couldn't spare the time/energy/resource to look through the list, phone the NHS pts, cackle down the phone at them, plus the NHS pay me faster, and I have a contract, and the numbers are always solid. I'd have to be really dumb to piss off the CCG's I work with.

nick - I honestly don't know how it works hence my cynical question. It feels as though I've been passed from pillar to post despite it being a straight-forward need for surgery. They've not been able to give me another date but when they cancelled previously I had to wait a month for a new appointment.

Of course I understand from your examples that things happen, no problem with that but guess I'm just a bit anxious that the op could be cancelled/postponed once I reach that stage. 🙂

Edit: I've no problem with private patients, in fact I was intending to be one but now that I have another health condition to finance it's out of the question.

Nope, long before the coalition in 2010

Second yes agreed but its the system which needs changing too

yes long before 2010, so long before that it was a previous Tory administration!

Ar you advocating the US model which costs more for less and leaves a huge proportion of the population without healthcare?

Or are you proposing a co-pay model, which will cost more to administer as per most of Europe?

Either way NHS funding is low by western standards, and the huge issue is preventative not reactive healthcare. But i guess that is the EU's fault and post brexit everything will be fine?

Give us examples of the First Rate that we should aspire to

My experience in France, Switzerland has been they are far better. Ditto treatment I have had in Singapore and US although there the system is effectively 80% Private (with much lower taxes).

As above we get what we pay for in UK, we don't pay much relative to France and Germany for example and we get second rate service. In France VAT on food is 5% in Germany it's 10%. French and Germans also pay many times higher rates of tax on Gas and Electricity.

[quote=kerley ]We don't get a breakdown really of our taxes our spent, but i think most would happily see that 0.5% of my income go direct to NHS funding
Try 10% and you will be closer (based on cost to each person of £2069 against average salary of £24K - numbers from 2014)

Thank goodness we are no on the German system where it is approximately 15% of your gross income goes direct to your health insurance with a further 7% contribution from your employer.

CG, like I said I couldn't afford to piss off the NHS, it's 99.9% of all the patients I see, plus private work is a ball ache to be honest.

it's going to be one of those things I've listed up there, I've had to cancel some cataract pts. 3 times recently because of admin cock ups mostly. Doesn't help the poor patient, and I understand it can be frustrating, but there's no great conspiracy to make your life harder, it's just the system's stretched to breaking point, and it doesn't take much to throw a spanner in the works I'm afraid.

Hope you get sorted soon.

Thanks docrobster. I hate to tell you but it's Autumn down South with temperatures well into double figures.

Because in the last 10 years the population has increased by at least 6 million. It's bound not to cope it's not like we ever had over capacity in the nhs is it?

nick - thanks for explaining. 8)

scaredy - really? What will it be like come January when the weather invariably changes?

Forgot to mention. NHS winter starts August the first and runs till July 31st. Going by bed occupancy rates anyhow.
Going back to kerley's figures of the average spend per person, that's backed up by similar stats [url= http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/articles/expenditureonhealthcareintheuk/2015-03-26#total-healthcare-expenditure-in-the-uk ]Here[/url] which also show how when the financial crash happened in 2008, the proportion of healthcare spend in the private sector dropped (as people no longer can afford/have company schemes) thus putting more strain on the NHS. So it really is all the bankers fault. Eh Jamba? 😉

A few numbers.

NHS exec recently service needs 4% extra pa to stand still, so over a Parliamentary term of 5yrs thats 20% or £26bn pa extra by 2020
Previously NHS said they needed £8bn extra pa
Labour promised £2bn, Tories £8bn and now say they will do £10bn

Now my estimation is the service neeeds £40bn now to meet spending of France and Germany

Where will that come from ?

Total VAT raise is £100bn
Total income tax, nat ins, iht is £300bn
Corporation tax £60bn

My view is you need a mix of tax rises across the board and proper integration with private insurance (as per France) so for example pre-existing conditions must be covered. Private companies are kept in check by state insurers (ie a state owned insurer selling "private" cover)

The issue is that politically we do not seem capable of having a sensibke discussion its all scare tactics of "privitsing" the nhs and so ehow Labour are going to "save" the service spending £2bn extra pa whilst Tories are going to destroy it spending £8bn extra

See what @welshfarmer says - we don't spend nearly enough. It would be naive to suggest our service is as good as the Germans when we spend a fraction. Its also ridiculous to suggest our service delivers because it's efficient (have seen that posted here before). We can critise Germany for a few things but efficiency they are good at.

We raise £533bn and NHS spending is £130bn or 24%

UK Taxes raised data below

its all scare tactics of "privitsing" the nhs

i was going to write a long winded reply to the op but as someone mentioned earlier, if you wait until you have a major emergency problem to try and find a dentist, then it's hardly surprising you are going to find it difficult.

Honestly 99% of dentists would love to be able to treat patients under the NHS if the system allowed them to offer the kind of service/ treatments/ high quality materials that are available but guess what. The system is underfunded, chronically so. It prioritises quantity of patients seen rather than quality of treatment provided and having a practice that provides completely nhs treatment (regardless of what you the punter actually perceive is the case) often involves more compromises than the highly intelligent and qualified, caring dentist cares to make.

My view is you need a mix of tax rises across the board

What about uk citizens that live abroad? There's quite a few of them.

Do they use the NHS? Have we got overseas branches now? Cool, I never knew that.