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Late to this. Just to check my suspicions from the title, is this another insecure meat-eater thread? I see dyna-ti is here so it must be 😂
Because its natural to do so 😕
Edit: Suspicion confirmed on the previous page. Has anyone posted the bingo card yet?
I’d wager that most people in Western society today eat meat because they like it.
I don't know about most people, but being nutritious is a major part of its appeal to me.
The problem with making analogies to turds etc. is that animals have evolved to generally find nutritious things delicious and feel revulsion at unhealthy things, and also to feel suspicious of unfamiliar tastes. The reason we find turds revolting is because they are extremely unhealthy, same with rotten food.
A better analogy would be something that is unfamiliar, but nutritious, like wood grubs. People who eat them say they are very tasty, but getting over that first mouthful is probably the trick. That was my experience with sashimi - I needed a couple of beers to relax the first time and then I realized it was pretty tasty and that was that.
Why not follow it up though with something by Michalak. Especially that one about the Vegetarian diet and its association with mental disorders.
Offffffftttt punching down much?
Have you actually read the study and the more recent meta-analysis and references?
For those not trolling and wondering what Dyna-Ti is referencing, a recent meta-analysis of previous studies (including one by a guy called Michalak) into the correlation between meat-free diets and various mental health issues.
In summary it found that crossectional studies found a correlation between meat-free diets and mental illness but could not establish causation. Longitudinal study by Michalak showed that switching to meat-free diets imporved mental health.
So there we go, it shows the exact opposite of Dyna-Ti's implication.
Offffffftttt punching down much?
How far ‘down’ was the strawperson? Or for that matter, how high (up) is dyna-ti?
Don’t know what the OP intended with this thread but it escalated very quickly once a veggie was asked why they didn’t like meat. That has been my take-home from this.
Living in the UK for the last 19 years with someone who doesn't eat meat I have seen this happen IRL more times than I would have guessed. Even from strangers in the local market ( ie her being publicly shamed - not for buying (me) pork sausages, but for not trying them herself, and then for giving the reason why so as not to offend the butcher who wasn’t taking ‘no thankyou’ for an answer. That went down well. Disgusting behaviour from the local punters who joined in with the loud shaming ‘oh, we’ve got one here, one of those!’ Etc. She was buying me sausages, ffs!
Family meals were always a ‘laugh’ too.
OTOH I’ve never been lectured/berated/ridiculed/inquisitioned by a veggie/vegan for my eating meat/fish in their company or at all. But there are way less of them, so even my anecdotes are admittedly skewed.
Onwards…
is that animals have evolved to generally find nutritious things delicious and feel revulsion at unhealthy things
A quick look at the local kebab shop destroys this argument. Even if true (which is highly unlikely) you seem to be missing the point that human animals can easily overide their genetic conditioning with logical and moral decision making, and at quite an early age..
https://www.britannica.com/explore/savingearth/why-do-children-choose-not-to-eat-meat
In summary it found that crossectional studies found a correlation between meat-free diets and mental illness but could not establish causation. Longitudinal study by Michalak showed that switching to meat-free diets imporved mental health.
So there we go, it shows the exact opposite of Dyna-Ti’s implication.
No, it doesn't. A similar thing occurs with stretching. People who stretch often report more injuries than people who stretch less often. However, people who stretch also report that it helps their injuries. The explanation is that many people stretch because they are injured, so people who don't stretch have less injuries.
One possible reason for people becoming vegetarian is dissatisfaction with aspects of life. If that's the case, vegetarians may report more mental health issues, but also report that their mental health improved after switching.
You need to be very careful about what you conclude from correlational studies. They just show that things tend to co-occur, not the complex causalities involved.
Would it be better to have left it for the dustbin?
Possibly, in the long run. The more that the shops have to throw away the less they'll order next time.
Tend to agree, Molgrips. If they didn’t lock the bins I’d no-doubt be a (fatter) semi-freegan.
Now there’s a niche …
Great news johnnymarone... we have decided at Singletrack Towers that this is our TOTW... Thread of the week. And you win a prize. I will message you to get your address.
Well done... great stuff.
Singletrack Charlie
You could've gone with 'This Week's Outstanding Thread' for a more entertaining acronym! 😉
RM.
It helps me to understand why dyna-ti thinks you are a bit militant. I don’t think I have ever heard anyone compare eating meat with eating turds before.
Also the fact you feel the need to emphasise dead flesh, when it is obvious that no one would consider eating live flesh, suggests a degree of extreme militant views.
Whatever, "flesh" then, you're splitting hairs. I was trying to communicate how it makes me feel in a way that a reader might relate. (Again, because I was asked.)
If I were shouting it from the rooftops and making demands of others then 'militant' could be a fair criticism, but I'm not. Once more with feeling, I couldn't give a toss what anyone else eats.
Presumably the sight of someone eating meat has a similar affect on you Cougar as the sight of someone eating a turd would have on me?
It kinda does a bit. It used to a lot when I was younger, I held my breath walking past a fish market and couldn't be in the same room as someone frying bacon. I've reconciled it over the years but it still makes me boak occasionally if it's something particularly pungent or bloody. But as above, I wouldn't make a song and dance about it, I'm well aware that it's my problem rather than anyone else's. I'm about as far from being militant as can be, for decades I was somewhere between embarrassed and mortified about it.
‘This Week’s Outstanding Thread’
This Week's Awesome Thread?
It kinda does a bit. It used to a lot when I was younger
Thanks for clarifying Cougar. I thought you were probably exaggerating as I have never met anyone with a strong aversion to seeing someone eating meat, although I see now that you weren't.
It must have caused you problems going to restaurants with friends or family, or just seeing people eating meat produce in public.
I must admit that I find it off putting when queuing up at a checkout in Tesco and someone slaps a lump of raw meat on the conveyor belt in front of me. Especially for some reason chicken legs, there's something about plucked bird body parts which I find particularly unpleasant.
But it has never made want to throw up. I would just rather not look at it. In the same way that I would rather not look at the corpse of a recently killed fox or badger whilst cycling along a road.
Personally there are many vegetables that give me that reaction (nasty and makes me want to heave). Carrots, Mushrooms, Cauliflower, sprouts, cabbage, and a few other things
Mushrooms are not a vegetable
Actually feaces might be quite good for you if you have bowel issues - you can now have "feacal transplants" if yo have disordered gut bacteria and also getting mild e coli infections strengthens your immune system
I'm not helping am I?
previous studies (including one by a guy called Michalak) into the correlation between meat-free diets and various mental health issues.
correlation is not causation
feacal transplants
Doesn’t go in orally though.
correlation is not causation
True but you can’t ignore the evidence that it’s a possibility given diet has an impact on your mental health.
correlation is not causation
Whoever put together that graph has never sailed a container ship down the Somalian coast.
I must admit that I find it off putting when queuing up at a checkout in Tesco and someone slaps a lump of raw meat on the conveyor belt in front of me
Yes, similar reaction to folks in the meat aisle, wondering along and without a pause picking up some lump of shrink wrapped meat and putting in their trolley. I wonder if they'd act so Blithely if they'd have seen the last 24-48 hrs of how that got to the supermarket. Perhaps they wouldn't care, I dunno. I suspect (I have no evidence either way) the packaging chosen by supermarkets to dis-associate to what it actually is encourages people not to consider the origins of it.
Other people eating meat has no ill effect on me, and weirdly I quite like the smell of BBQ-ing meat. Still don't want to to eat it though.
I wonder if they’d act so Blithely if they’d have seen the last 24-48 hrs of how that got to the supermarket.
I am pretty sure they would not. I believe most people are pretty much disassociated from "Meat = animals"
I firmly believe you should not eat an animal unless you are prepared to kill and butcher it ( you don't have to do it everytime) and you should never kill an animal unless you are prepared to eat it Or its so injured survival is not going to happen( midges being the one exception 🙂 )
Meat is animals and people should know this deep in their soul. and yes - I have converted living animals to food. Cows and rabbits ( present at the killing not actually doing it. I have also euthanised a couple of injured animals)
I am certain that there are many people who do not understand that meat is animals apart from in a very abstract way. presenting them with the reality of this would reduce meat eating considerably
How far ‘down’ was the strawperson? Or for that matter, how high (up) is dyna-ti?
Well there you go again, always on with the personal attacks, dyna-ti this, dyna-ti that distracting away from the original question, like you're afraid to answer or examine it in any detail.
Popping up an oh so interesting Jung reference and an 'over your head vid. More distraction, more insults.
I have no qualifications in psychology, and i doubt anyone else here does too, other than yourself, or do you ? and if not why then the reference, if not to throw out another insult.
So I looked into it, and from that came to a reference and posted that. I thought it appropriate, having physical reactions to the thought of eating meat, something 9/10ths of the population of the earth does. No no, thats a completely normal reaction and not a learned behaviour. Although maybe its a bit like a small kid throwing a tantrum.
"For those not trolling and wondering what Dyna-Ti is referencing, a recent meta-analysis of previous studies (including one by a guy called Michalak) into the correlation between meat-free diets and various mental health issues."
Yeah, that one single solitary psychologist(oh and the other partner in that study 😕 ) Forget about him, or just leaving that out to suit your narrative 😆
Not trolling he says. posts insulting animated gifs. Jesus, you couldnt make it up 😆
It's all dyna and his outrageous meat eating habits.
Mind you, you dont see me or any other meat eating member of the forum or public in general posting up threads about eating meat. Just what could be described as troll threads on how veganism and vegetarianism is morally superiour.
Perhaps they wouldn’t care
I love that @nickc , the accusatory tone.
Why should they care, its completely natural and happens right across the food chain. You being the minority people could do the same and question why you arent following suit.
Anyway, come on now, bring on further insults, its what you veggie weirdos prefer.
PLANT MURDERERS.
Why should they care, its completely natural and happens right across the food chain.
Are you seriously making no distinction between human beings and other animals that eat meat?
I wouldn't expect a lion, for example, to give a flying **** about the consequences of their actions, and any suffering it might cause both emotional and physical. Nor any possible effect on the environment - they are not going to not eat something because it represents an endangered species are they?
As you say, why should they care?
Furthermore lions have no choice whatsoever on the issue of whether or not they should eat meat. They absolutely must eat meat.
Humans clearly have responsibilities concerning minimizing suffering, avoiding cruelty, and protecting the environment, which don't apply to other species. Whatever happens naturally across the food chain.
Whoever put together that graph has never sailed a container ship down the Somalian coast.
Maybe not, but according to data from the IMB Piracy Reporting Centre and Maritime Piracy Event and Location Data Project, In 2019, there were fewer piracy incidents – including ship hijackings as well as robberies and failed attacks – than in any year since 1994. Hijackings, in which pirates take over control of a ship, are also down from their peak in 2010.
But then the staff at IMB Piracy Reporting Centre and Maritime Piracy Event and Location Data Project are probably vegetarians/meat-eaters/vegans (delete as applicable to your personal bias)
Humans clearly have responsibilities concerning minimizing suffering, avoiding cruelty, and protecting the environment, which don’t apply to other species. Whatever happens naturally across the food chain.
Oh yes, we like to give ourselves the airs and graces but the stark reality is there is little to no difference between us and the lions.
Why do you think we developed religions, why do we still engage in wars and conflict. We are as cruel and barbaric if not more so.
We will reduce the suffering of our food animals, but allow thousands of our fellow humans to starve or live in abject poverty.
We will step over a homeless person and not think anything of it, or treat someone in thew throes of addiction with something worse than contempt. Care ? few, but not the majority.
wonder how big the country’s carbon footprint would grow if you needed to suddenly plant and harvest veg as a main source of diet for some 67 million people.
Actually going to a completely plant based diet worldwide and in the UK would reduce carbon footprint as it takes many kilos ( 5-15) of plants to grow 1 kg of meat
So that one is 180 degrees out
So it would need less land under cultivation and more food to go round
It would also reduce greenhouse gas emissions from farting cows - oddly a significant source
but the stark reality is there is little to no difference between us and the lions.
Why do you think we developed religions, why do we still engage in wars and conflict. We are as cruel and barbaric if not more so.
We will reduce the suffering of our food animals, but allow thousands of our fellow humans to starve or live in abject poverty.We will step over a homeless person and not think anything of it, or treat someone in thew throes of addiction with something worse than contempt. Care ? few, but not the majority.
You start off by saying that the stark reality is that there little or no difference between human and lions and then immediately highlight a whole lot of differences between humans and lions.
Unless of course you think that lions have also adopted religion, reduced the suffering of "food animals" and have a similar attitude to addiction?
Contrary to your previous post humans do not typically behave in a natural manner, as your last post highlights.
No I would say that people dont care about eating meat and see it as being perfectly natural, in the same way you eat plants yet are totally dismissive of them actually being alive and therefore you kill them to live. You certainly don't care about them do you.
Well there you go again, always on with the personal attacks, dyna-ti this, dyna-ti that distracting away from the original question, like you’re afraid to answer or examine it in any detail.
That’s no ‘attack’, for Pete’s sake get a grip! It was a direct question to @thisisnotaspoon re their comment ‘punching down’. I was confused by both the term and it’s use in context (and still am tbh).
dyna-ti:Why not follow it up though with something by Michalak. Especially that one about the Vegetarian diet and its association with mental disorders.
thisisnotaspoon: Offffffftttt punching down much?
My question, that in order to ‘punch down’ the ‘puncher’ must rank above their target? Correct? Rank needs defining in order to qualify the title. Get it now?
But back to your getting hoppity about ‘personal attacks’. Seriously?
The only thing that I would have rated as an ‘attack’ on this thread was you going from zero to jugular on a vegetarian for them having answered a direct question about why they chose not to eat meat.
My mention of ‘projection’ was contained in my quote (ie you accused the person you were accusing of having ‘psychological’ reasons, (ie having the ‘same’ reaction to meat that you claimed to have about certain non-meat foodstuffs)
The animated gif was a (hopefully) light-hearted illustration of you seeming unaware of doing just that. ie you were/are attempting to infer that vegetarian/s have psychological disorders because they react to some foodstuffs in the ‘same’ (your word) way that you react to some foodstuffs, while simultaneously attacking them for being (sic) ‘defensive’ and ‘militant’. Cue ‘projection’.
Get it now? That’s all.
Now, what was the question again? Any vegetarians care to ‘weigh in’ to see again what happens when they find a stranger in the Alps? 🙄
you eat plants yet are totally dismissive of them actually being alive
Not at all. Wherever possible I try to eat plants that are still alive. Even if they are plunged screaming into boiling water.
*When they ‘find a stranger in the Alpen’?
What does TOTW mean?
Thread of the week
Your qualms about plant-eating would soon disappear after a few days of hunger. If you don't give-in early enough, you might eventually end up reaching straight for the cheese and meat.
I would say that people dont care about eating meat and see it as being perfectly natural, in the same way you eat plants yet are totally dismissive of them actually being alive and therefore you kill them to live.
I have a question, and I apologise in advance if you interpret this as an attack because it's not intended as such. I ask merely for information.
Are you intentionally trolling or are you an idiot?
Thanks for clarifying Cougar. I thought you were probably exaggerating as I have never met anyone with a strong aversion to seeing someone eating meat, although I see now that you weren’t.
I mean, as an adult I try just to not focus on it. I wouldn't get bent out of shape about it because it's bugger all to do with me what anyone else eats. But if someone was chowing down on something that was bleeding about the place, I'd try and look away.
It must have caused you problems going to restaurants with friends or family, or just seeing people eating meat produce in public.
I'm not sure it this is sincere or cynical. But yes, going to restaurants is difficult for me. Not really because of what anyone else is eating, as discussed I don't really care, but because I don't know what I'm going to be presented with. "Oh, I'm not really hungry, I'll have a bowl of chips" he lied.
I must admit that I find it off putting when queuing up at a checkout in Tesco and someone slaps a lump of raw meat on the conveyor belt in front of me. Especially for some reason chicken legs, there’s something about plucked bird body parts which I find particularly unpleasant.
Kinda where I was coming from. Yet you'd still eat it? I find that weird, and I totally hold my hand up that that's on me not you / anyone else.
To my screwed-up ASD brain, eating is invasive. It's putting something inside myself. So if I'm not comfortable handling something - a leg on a conveyor for instance - then I'm light years away from wanting to eat it once someone's turned it brown.
But it has never made want to throw up. I would just rather not look at it. In the same way that I would rather not look at the corpse of a recently killed fox or badger whilst cycling along a road.
Likewise, and that's a perfect analogy.
It doesn't make me want to throw up, but it does make me queasy in the same way that roadkill would.
I have a question, and I apologise in advance if you interpret this as an attack because it’s not intended as such. I ask merely for information.
Are you intentionally trolling or are you an idiot?
So im an idiot because i dare to suggest the majority dont care about how their dinner is actually killed, and by that i dont mean the process. That to you is idiocy.
And no I wouldnt call that an attack, well not exactly, even though this is your intention, as there is no other reason for such rudeness.
As to the information you seek 😕 What exactly is this info, do you even know ?, or have you added this merely as a vessel to be so rude. Pretty much anything you want to know I've already stated, and you've gone so far to quote me. So again 😕 Reason for asking escapes me.
But it appears to come down to this
One group says eating meat is so wrong, they are physically repulsed by it. Anyone who eats meat is subject to verbal assault.
A second group states eating meat is fine, they feel it natural, and if you choose not to for whatever reason, that is ok by them.
But somehow you feel the first group have the moral highground.
You claim to be ASD 😕 I find that odd given logic plays a large part of that disorder, and certainly the above is far from it.
As to me highlighting what is clearly a psychological issue, look at some of the language used.
This also isnt an attack, though neither is it an attempt to be rude to another member as you seem to think lends credence to your point of view, but is only there as an example.
" someone slaps a lump of raw meat on the conveyor belt in front of me."
I would say it is placed, not slapped down, and 'in front of me' as if that poster believes that the actions of the customer are a personal assault on their sensibility.
" but it does make me queasy in the same way that roadkill would."
And how do you feel about your own choice of diet being grown in animal shit 😕 Does that not repulse you ?, or make you queasy.
I think you just don't like someone using logic to question the vegan lifestyle, and feel the need to insult such a person.
So as to the original question " If science ever proves plants are properly sentient, whats left to eat?" Have you addressed that point of view, because it appears you havent and all you have done this entire thread is go on the attack against other members whose opinion differs from yours.
When i look back in this thread at your reply to others, the little snipes, the implication that they are lacking intellectually for their choice of diet, and your ignoring the op's original subject matter, it wouldn't be too far a stretch to suggest that not only are you a troll, but a complete idiot to boot.
Dyna Ti
Having followed this thread the only person IMO that has acted badly is you. why all the venom and personal attacks?
Having followed this thread the only person IMO that has acted badly is you. why all the venom and personal attacks?
That's because dyna doesn't dress it up with false politeness like Cougar :
I have a question, and I apologise in advance if you interpret this as an attack because it’s not intended as such. I ask merely for information.
Are you intentionally trolling or are you an idiot?
I'm not sure if it works for anyone else but I'll give it a go.....
Cougar please don't take this wrong, I am merely asking this because I am intrigued and it is not intended as an insult, but do you ever have a day off from being a patronising prick?
Thanking you in advance for carefully thought out response.
Btw Cougar ref : "Kinda where I was coming from. Yet you’d still eat it? I find that weird", I said that I don't eat meat, so the answer is no, I don't still eat it.
One group says eating meat is so wrong, they are physically repulsed by it.
If you're referring to Cougar I think he feels repulsed by it because he just really doesn't like it, not because it's so wrong. I feel the same about mayonnaise.
Interesting - I don't see cougar and particularly his posts on this thread like that at all.
maybe it went over my head
But it appears to come down to this
One group says eating meat is so wrong, they are physically repulsed by it.
One group says eating meat is so wrong, they are physically repulsed by it.
No, not a ‘group’. That was one person (Cougar). And you even stated that (some) vegetables made you feel ‘the same’ way.
Anyone who eats meat is subject to verbal assault.
Again, no. You were the one who began by (sic) verbally assaulting a single vegetarian, in fact swearing at them for the above. No one ‘assaulted’ you. No one in this thread AFAICS has been ‘assaulted’ in any way for their eating meat?
A second group states eating meat is fine, they feel it natural, and if you choose not to for whatever reason, that is ok by them.
After reading this thread (and come to think of it, some others, especially veggie recipe threads) I find it very hard to believe that you (personally) think that people not eating meat is ‘ok by you’.
You come over somewhat as as an ‘antiveggie’ fundamentalist. Not because you like meat (you most obviously do) or that you specially enjoy killing and cutting up animals (you may or may not do) - but because you appear to dislike and stereotype people who don’t eat meat. Do you not see the irony here? You are aggressively and intolerantly accusing a (passive) vegetarian of being aggressively intolerant because they answered a question about why they don’t eat meat.
I see this all of the time (married to someone who doesn’t eat meat/dairy) and the unintentional irony is deafening (and depressing tbh). Family and friends mealtimes are a quiz/interrogations/‘shaming’ session (delete as applicable) more often than not. Same goes when I choose veggie options. Many/most(?) people seem to have no idea that they are ‘othering’ and stereotyping s stranger/friend/family-member simply because that person chooses to eat what they like to eat. It would never occur to me to interrogate someone (family or stranger) to their face over why they chose to eat/order meat. Yet the same thought rarely occurs vice versa.
No one ‘assaulted’ you. No one in this thread AFAICS has been ‘assaulted’ in any way for their eating meat?
I was meaning as in a verbal assault, not physical.
So by being called an idiot, you would have to agree that is an assault is it not ?.
And its that type of behaviour sets me off, and so I feel the need to stupidly defend myself.
If you’re referring to Cougar
No, i was referring to militant vegetarianism in general, im not singling anyone out here for their views, as i have said constantly. It is the overall generalization of eating meat as being wrong that I am in disagreement of.
Having followed this thread the only person IMO that has acted badly is you. why all the venom and personal attacks?
Only in retaliation and even then hardly venomous, Its not like ive directly called anyone an idiot is it, nor have i implied such, nor have I posted animated gifs to that effect
maybe it went over my head
😕
You come over somewhat as as an ‘antiveggie’ fundamentalist. Not because you like meat (you most obviously do) or that you specially enjoy killing and cutting up animals (you may or may not do)
Again, I'm not the one being abusive, and am only defending against such assaults.
"You may or may not".
Look there you go again. I may or may not be some psychopathic animal killer who takes pleasure in killing animals.
Can you not see even your words here as being somewhat provocative ?, and as an insult personally directed. Maybe this is just the language you are used to, throwing sarcastic comments and innuendo at members.
*I cant really go on at length with this, think im quite ill currently can hardly breathe and only slept 3 h in the last 48. But if you call me names, then deny anyone is actually being abusive towards me despite those insults being there for you to see, dont be surprised if i call that out.
---------------------------------------
"Militant anti vegetarian" lol first in history I reckon. Maybe I could follow that up by invading a vegetarian restaurant and throwing sausages at the diners 😆
Or even start a thread 'Meat dishes for the vegetarian' but wouldn't that be seen as provocative 😆
Look there you go again. I may or may not be some psychopathic animal killer who takes pleasure in killing animals.
Can you not see even your words here as being somewhat provocative ?
Maybe the words you substituted them for could be taken that way, but mine weren’t intended to provoke. Many (not all) meat eaters enjoy hunting/killing/butchering their own meat. Many don’t. It’s as simple as that in the context of my point. I didn’t wish to assume whether you did or not. My point - that whatever you feel (or don’t feel) about animals and their lives/meat seems to have little to do with your reactions here to vegetarians and veggie recipes. Which (I seem to remember) are are fairly consistent. It’s funny you brought up the veggie recipe threads because they regularly get derailed by the more militant meat-eaters/anti-veggies on a mission. tbh I don’t get it? What’s so ‘provocative’ about people sharing vegetarian/vegan recipes on the forum?
Take a look back on this thread and see if you can’t pinpoint the moment that it began going south. I’d put a fiver on the likelihood that you feel fully vindicated in believing your own account: ie your (sic) verbal assault on the veggie was simply a ‘response’ to the veggie being (sic) ‘provocative’. Feel better BTW. I’ll take the fiver whenever 😉
It's never too much effort when there's an important point to be made.
Mun, I cant believe you lot.
By far the most common reasons I hear for people going to a plant based diet is animal ethics, followed by health consciousness. I assume anyone doing it for religious reasons have been doing it since becoming spiritually awakened or birth.
I have since learned some people do it because they are disgusted by the sight, taste and thought of eating flesh. I kind of get that, seeing a rare steak makes me think what on earth that must feel like in the mouth, and the coppery taste of blood going down my throat would make me heave.It seems so unnecessary in a world of cooked food, but who am I to judge?
But the point I was trying to get at wasnt to wind anyone up or watch any of you lot go for each other, in fact some of the behaviour here on both sides has been disgraceful. I was hoping to find out a few things
a) vegetarians. If you are one of those who do so for animal ethics reasons, how would a blurring of the line between animal and vegetable (hypothetically, before the argumentative start again) shake any of your beliefs? Would science be able to change your views which are, at least to me, based on emotion over fact? I count myself as one of these, as thats the reason I wont eat mammals,I see them as sentient and equally deserving of life. I see no point in supporting the meat trade when pain and suffering -free alternatives exist. However I also admit that I did feel healthier when I ate red meat, obviously Im doing it wrong . I am also aware I am able to digest meat so it must be evolutionarily important to my species, which means it must be a benefit historically. Despite all the evidence that eating meat is good for me , I choose not to because I dont want to hurt the cows , pigs and sheep. I notice I dont care about the suffering and pain of fish, which I eat a lot of. I dont know how Id react if science demonstrated the ability of fish to suffer pain and suffering at a level equivalent to that of mammals. Maybe they have already I just dont know about it. I find my hypocrisy thought provoking and I wanted to hear others opinions.
b) meat eaters. I already know that you are not all cut from the same cloth. Some are fastidious about where your meat comes from, some couldnt care less and price is the deciding factor, and every shade in between, plus more. My entire family eat meat and I dont judge them for it, I dont judge you for it either, its just not for me. I'm looking at the way some meat eaters have described vegetarians as aggressive fanatics,etc. You have a point in some cases, but in others you are the arsehole. I was wondering whether , in a world where the ethical difference between taking an animal life and plant life had become blurred, whether you would double down on meat eating as you were now no longer the barbarous primitives eating the poor sentient animals, that in fact the vegetarians were now just as culpable as yourselves in causing suffering. Or, whether the the new view that all life is connected and sentient would make you reconsider your whole stance on eating meat. In the same hypothetical world as above, obviously.
C) everybody. I was wondering what other sources of nutrition might people reconsider , given that plant and animal life are now ethically equivalent. Bacterial? Algae? Would palatability win over ethics at this point? That kind of thing.
What I hoped would be obviously intelligent and articulate people on both sides of the argument presenting fact and counter facts , maybe with links to interesting research I hadnt heard of, turned into a slagfest and pissing contest. I didnt care about people putting the boot into me for my contributions, they were abstract, daft and unresearched, but for a forum which has such intelligent people contributing, it was a disappointment to see the way it degenerated since.
That was a good post OP. I attempted to write a summarised ‘answer’ last night and didn’t post it (saved it in notes) mostly because of the way the thread was headed. I’ll post last night’s response at the end of this. I also failed to ‘summarise’ but your question is enormous and tbh I could ramble on forever about the subject of tomato ketchup. Publish and be damned.
I don’t quite know which of your categories I fit into, because I eat meat yet I (variously) don’t feel comfortable about it most of the time for quite a wide variety of reasons that are sometimes (yet not always) connected. The one thing about this question/thread that frustrates me has been the polarising and stereotypical nature and framing of much of the discussion. ie A vs B. ‘meateater vs veggie’ / ‘ethics vs the environment’. Care about nothing vs care about everything and it’s microbe.
It is surely more likely that most people fall somewhere along a spectrum of consideration vs inconsideration for all of the above?
ie I eat meat, I like the taste and texture of meat, don’t eat all meat, not happy just to eat it from anywhere, sometimes not all. Increasingly unhappy about it.
I have killed and dismembered many wild animals for curiosity (as a child), for the pleasure of hunting/killing (teenager), and for the pleasure of eating (as both child and adult
Not much in the last twenty years. But I’ve bought plenty of meat in that time, so have killed/butchered by proxy.
Some of these concerns in my adult life (as with many of you?) change and grow/wither, mutate etc. In brief (as with most) - these concerns are from my perspective of myself as a consumer and as individual/soul/contributing member of society/the environment/other living creatures/souls. But this is about sentience.
Last night’s answer (TLDR)
No I would say that people dont care about eating meat and see it as being perfectly natural, in the same way you eat plants yet are totally dismissive of them actually being alive
‘Some’ people, surely?
For instance I eat meat yet don’t at all feel way that dyna-ti describes. Or rather don’t ‘not care’ about life/sentience, neither do I feel ‘dismissive’
I’d put the word ‘sentient’ here, ie:
totally dismissive of them actually being
alivesentient.
To attempt to answer the OP question:
Not everyone understands and/or feels the same way about sentience in general. This is for varying reasons/factors (ie environmental/religious/cultural/conditioning/psychological/socio-psychological, etc etc…)
I’d offer that the word ‘sentient’ remains ill-defined or at least differently understood by each one of us, and that’s before even throwing in all of the other variables around species, neurology, group psychology, hierarchy and taxonomies, or questions around freedom, ‘right’ to exist, welfare, killing, etc etc.
One of my boorish ‘gotcha’ philosophical questions is to ask my wife whether or not she would eat a sea sponge? And if not then why not? She answers (wholly sensibly):
‘Why would I need to eat a sea sponge?’
‘Just because’
‘That doesn’t make sense?’
‘Ok just imagine you’re starving and all there is to eat are sea sponges’
‘wtf?’
‘OK if I told you that it was an ‘animal’ rather than a ‘plant’ would you be more or less inclined to eat it’
‘Less, of course’
‘OK but what if I told you that it had no brain, would you be less or more inclined’
‘Er…’
‘Ha! OK whatabout a mesodinium chamaeleon?…’
‘A what? An areyouanarse-hole-eon?
😬
Etc..
She doesn’t understand my resultant glee (and neither do I, tbh)
Globally it seems that most everyone has at least some ethical, cultural, psychological, empathic etc dilemma regarding their food choice and how they treat other living things. Even if their only ‘taboo’ is to not to kill and eat their own kin. The sentience issue is a very wide spectrum both in understanding an attitudes. Not always in line with practise.
Bright-eyes anecdote: I do have some ‘city friends’ who used to laugh at what they referred to as ‘the bunnies’ being killed as they were driving. They would speed up at rabbits to hit them. To them it was like watching funny furry rocks being bowled around by their car-wheels. Same with pheasants. It was like a game of whackamole. Living sentient creatures occupied the same space in my friend’s minds as do some polyester fuzzythings popping up in a fairground attraction.
They had (AFAICS) no feelings about it whatsoever except as a trivial form of ‘entertainment’. It was quite a sickly surprise to me. There was no thought whatsoever that the ( not always killed outright) animals were suffering (or if there was, then it was entirely concealed in mirth). I couldn’t help but see this as some kind of failure to understand ‘sentience’ in animals (?)
There was no suspicion of intentional cruelty as they saw the animals as non-sentient ie ‘rocks with fur’ (or if there was some intent, then maybe I didn’t wish to recognise it in my friends?)
But then again, I sometimes take a bizarre (if small) pleasure in seeing ‘our’ feral cat dispatching numbers of the many rats we have. It’s complicated, then. I have a history of keeping rats as pets and yet simultaneously loathing wild rats near the house. But I like to think that I take no pleasure in their (wild rats) suffering. And then I catch myself grinning at (with) the cat when I see him dragging off with his latest kill.
But nonetheless, as with mine, sentience and rights to life/autonomy/freedom of other lifeforms are a sliding scale in most people’s minds?
I’m sure there are those who would chance upon a (say) family of orang-utans being burned in the forest and think nothing more deeply than ‘BBQ’. How is that different than a pig on the spit?
And that may be their (chosen?) limit to their understanding of the situation. May as well be some carrots being boiled ‘alive’. But the ‘truth’ of course does not lie wholly in interpretation? The creature (in and of itself) is an objective subject, not a subjective object?
A behaviourist/veterinarian/neurologist/psychologist/zoologist (ie someone like Jane Goodall) etc would have a diametrically opposite/different understanding about the matter. The conviction of recognition of our fellow creatures as sentient and deserving of (?) is (variously) viewed as this or that.
I personally struggle with a lot of it, in all honesty. Even moreso watching largely fake online ‘culture wars’ emerge and dominate debates which spill over into real life attitudes.
It’s a tricky subject, and as far as ‘sentience’ goes - unless I try (have tried and failed) to just squash it down and ignore it then it’s always a factor for me along the scale and in life.
Shrimp sentience doesn’t feature highly in my food concerns. The farming methods do because of their environmental effects. Dogs and pigs feature highly for me on the sentience scale. All mammals do, really. But I’d still not be cruel to a shrimp or insect, or fish. Fish I prefer to catch and then dispatch instantly rather than fund to be suffocated slowly in a net along with tonnes of bycatch.
My attitudes towards my own sourcing and eating of mammalian (and bird) meat in the last decade have been more directly informed by working with livestock (as a sheep-herd and cowhand), with behaviourists, vets, horse-trainers, farmers, (and also a friend runs a farm-animal sanctuary and also breeds/provides eggs from rescued hens). Have also done a lot of reading about animal psychology. In previous life I worked with profoundly autistic/LD children. I learned first that even profoundly mentally-disabled and non-verbal children weren’t all ‘vegetables’. Same goes for the non-verbal profoundly physically-disabled. This may seem cringingly obvious to parents and teachers who are familiar, yet the rough attitude in my state secondary-school and familial upbringing towards those so disabled was more towards assuming they must have the ‘sentience of vegetables’. Working with same provided the revelation required to make me realise how trivially easy it is to be so excusably yet radically wrong about matters of sentience
From there I began studying psychology (human) and subsequently animal behaviour/animal psychology. This was to support my respective careers. Such study has also undeniably affected the way I view the world and other minds/lives, both emotionally and analytically. It’s endlessly fascinating, but (IME) revealingly troubling. I’m largely convinced that at any time our cultural and personal attitude towards other animals mirror our attitudes towards both the miracle of life, the living planet, and even towards each other.