Jains aren’t supposed to kill anything to eat it. So their diet strictly speaking shouldn’t include (for instance) root veg, but only things that can be picked or plucked from trees and bushes.
Would they be allowed a little slither if beef, or even a leg of lamb, if it didn't kill the animal?
Has anyone mentioned Breatharians?
I have no idea how they do it, it seems almost unbelievable to me, but they get my utmost respect.
Would they be allowed a little slither if beef, or even a leg of lamb, if it didn’t kill the animal?
No idea, seems that it might go against the spirit of the thing though.
EDIT: A quick Google says that they don't eat anything from animals that has been produced with violence. So presumably eggs and milk are OK in some circumstances, but not the slice from it's leg.
Not even if it's died peacefully in its sleep?
Yes no maybe...I think that's a bit of a controversy in Jainism. I think some folks see it as a bit of a "get out clause" and others think you still shouldn't eat it. Had a long chat with one of my GPs a while back about all this sort of stuff (who is from a Jain background) I'll ask him
So in a butchers shop, no matter how much or the grade of the beef(which will 99% of the time be grade A) the sausages and mince will always be the best of quality. They have to be.
I'm sold. Sausages for dinner tonight for me.
OP, we become morally obliged to cannibalism. Obvs.
OP, we become morally obliged to cannibalism. Obvs.
We already know what vegetarians and vegans taste like 😉 😆
Why would you eat that shit? It’s the flesh of dead things.
There are many reasons not to eat meat but this isn't one of them, it's just playing with words.
Better than the flesh of live things though eh?
it’s just playing with words.
Ahem...
Better than the flesh of live things though eh?
Less of the ‘we’ please. Some of us happily eat animals regardless of their proven sentience.
“Please don’t make rash generalisations”
It’s the vegetarians who will have a new dilemna.
*makes a rash generalisation*
I'll rephrase @cougar
What i meant was meat eaters are already reconciled to eating sentient things so they will presumably have no moral qualm with extending that approach to sentient plants.
Vegetarians aren't reconciled, hence being vegetarian, so will have an additional consideration.
Jeepers that a quoted mess but you get my drift.
You have pre-supposed that everyone who doesn't eat meat does so out of moral considerations, and that's not the case. Some people are fine with killing animals for meat, but just don't like the taste of it themselves, and because we live in 21stC UK, don't have to eat it.
If science ever proves plants are properly sentient, whats left to eat?
Oysters.
Vegans, Cougar, you're welcome.
There are many reasons not to eat meat but this isn’t one of them
... in your opinion. Whereas in mine it's a primary driver not to eat it, it's nasty and makes me want to heave.
And I'm not alone even amongst omnivores. It's relatively easy to be a meat-eater once someone else has done all the wetwork and packaged it up into neat little chunks and slices for you. I'd wager that if everyone was told they could only eat meat that they'd prepared themselves, then were given them a rifle and a skinning knife and dropped in a field with all the chickens, baa lambs and other assorted fauna they could eat, we'd see rather a lot of overnight conversions.
What i meant was meat eaters are already reconciled to eating sentient things so they will presumably have no moral qualm with extending that approach to sentient plants.
Vegetarians aren’t reconciled, hence being vegetarian, so will have an additional consideration.
I think that's perhaps arse-backwards. Omnivore is (typically) the default, so by definition the vast majority of veggies+ will have given some thought about their diet. Whereas your meat eaters are probably doing what they've always done.
(And yes, this is a generalisation of course. I know omnivores who have given it a great deal of thought and decided that, on balance, they're going to choose to continue to eat meat. But I suspect they're a minority, certainly amongst the older generation.)
So, with that in mind, how would people on here feel if the only real benefit vegetarianism has , ie the fact you are claiming a non sentient life as food over a sentient firm, was negated.
What about those of us who just really like messing with people who's self identity is inextricably linked to bacon?
This changes nothing.
Would they be allowed a little slither if beef, or even a leg of lamb, if it didn’t kill the animal?
A bit like the Anthony Bourdain episode where they stab the cow to bleed it?
Dunno about the rest of you, but nope, not OK with that either.
plants are not sentient and science will never prove that they are because they are not.
Evolution can happen quicker than millions of years. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/lizard-evolution-island-darwin
I’d wager that if everyone was told they could only eat meat that they’d prepared themselves, then were given them a rifle and a skinning knife and dropped in a field with all the chickens, baa lambs and other assorted fauna they could eat, we’d see rather a lot of overnight conversions.
Grow your own do you ?, a market gardener 😆 or do you buy your food out of the supermarket like the rest of us.
it’s nasty and makes me want to heave.
Personally there are many vegetables that give me that reaction. Carrots, Mushrooms, Cauliflower, sprouts, cabbage, and a few other things. I like potatoes mashed with turnip, onions, garlic.
However just because i find them disagreeable, i dont go around demanding others give them up too. Now that would just be silly now wouldn't it.
Almost as silly a suggestion as expecting people to kill their own dinner. I'm sure you've used the humanitarian argument, but in a field, with a gun, to have the animal suffer. So does that compute 😕
I wonder how big the country's carbon footprint would grow if you needed to suddenly plant and harvest veg as a main source of diet for some 67 million people. Or do you expect to bring back the plough ?, obviously not driven by horses, that would be cruel, so maybe dragged by people, or even the unemployed.
Yeah, lets follow those ideals and revert back to the middle ages 😆 Let's just hope theres not a drought, or there'd be tens of thousands of humans starving to death.
You dont eat meat. That is fine, nobody is attacking you for it, it is your choice, although feeling like heaving, that sounds like a psychological issue to me.
But fair enough, that is your choice and fine by me. I just wish you put as much effort into defending those who have their own choice of diet.
You're just making shit up to argue against and I'm not sure as I can be bothered any further.
I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that you're either a deliberate troll or an idiot.
making shit up to argue against
It very much put me in mind of a recent description of broadcaster Andrew Neil (when he was with GBeebies):
“This is like watching an old man standing in the shower practising arguments in his head for a conversation that’s never happened against a person that’s never existed”
You’re just making shit up to argue against and I’m not sure as I can be bothered any further.
Welcome to STW
Naw, maybe im bored and sick of the shite you keep throwing out. Militant vegetarians sheesh.
dyna-ti
Personally there are many vegetables that give me that reaction (nasty and makes me want to heave). Carrots, Mushrooms, Cauliflower, sprouts, cabbage, and a few other things
Also dyna-ti
that (nasty and makes me want to heave) sounds like a psychological issue to me.
‘Projection’ comes to mind? 😉
(Tonight Matthew, I have been Carl Gustav Jung on ‘The Shadow’)
Keep it light tho eh?
Keep it light tho eh?
Well maybe you should follow that advice too eh ?, with your quotes and full on vids. Nothing like stirring the pot eh .
I recognize that having a physical reaction to a foodstuff is in the head. In all honesty I wouldnt say it makes me heave, more I dislike the taste of them, so I was actually agreeing with the sentiment.
Well done though on the Jung reference on psychological projection. Why not follow it up though with something by Michalak. Especially that one about the Vegetarian diet and its association with mental disorders.
But hey, its all me clearly. Though perhaps I'm just projecting the same thing from the opposite perspective. But yeah, clearly it's all down to me and my disgusting diet.
People asked questions. I attempted to answer those questions. If you don't like those answers, why are you even here reading this? Other threads are available.
However just because i find them disagreeable, i dont go around demanding others give them up too. Now that would just be silly now wouldn’t it.
If you can find anywhere in the history of the Internet, on STW or elsewhere, where I've even remotely suggested that I think that anyone else should eat what I eat (let alone "militantly") then you can have my bike. I couldn't give the remotest of tosses what anyone else puts in their face. Why do you?
Disproportionately defensive meat-eaters on the other hand, they're free with Tiger Tokens.
There is only one reason why people eat meat - because they choose to and are therefore happy with what that means (animal welfare, animal deaths, climate impact etc,.)
Getting a meat eater to accept that is another thing and a list of BS reasons always comes out on why they have to. Being a vegetarian for 40 years I have heard it all.
it’s nasty and makes me want to heave
Handy hint: If you cover it with garlic spread, it'll taste like garlic but still be just as nutritious.
Then it would be revolting and garlic-flavoured.
I no more want to eat dead flesh than I want to eat turds. Does that help in understanding at all?
If everyone else ate turds, continually told you how delicious and nutritious they were, spent half their lives going "but whhhyyyyyyy don't you eat turds?" and looking at you like a freak, would you go "oh, alright then, pass the garlic butter"?
Gods damned militant turd-avoider, coming round here and having the audacity to not eat things and wanting to eat your turd-free lunch in peace. Why do you think we have colons?
There has been a surprising amount of research on the effects of eating faeces. It turns out that it has very little nutritional value and making it taste like garlic wouldn't really help with that. Meat and vegetables, on the other hand, are quite nutritious so making them taste like garlic is well worth the effort.
For the purposes of an increasingly poor analogy, let's assume that they're highly nutritious.
The point was, nutritional value aside, that's about how much eating meat appeals to me.
Do people only eat meat because it's nutritious? That may be true in less developed parts of the world, but I'd wager that most people in Western society today eat meat because they like it.
I no more want to eat dead flesh than I want to eat turds. Does that help in understanding at all?
It helps me to understand why dyna-ti thinks you are a bit militant. I don't think I have ever heard anyone compare eating meat with eating turds before.
Also the fact you feel the need to emphasise dead flesh, when it is obvious that no one would consider eating live flesh, suggests a degree of extreme militant views.
Presumably the sight of someone eating meat has a similar affect on you Cougar as the sight of someone eating a turd would have on me?
I stopped eating meat about 30 years ago btw.
We have a culture going back thousands of years that involves eating meat because it is nutritious. Pretty hard for many to shake that off as it's deeply embedded.
There is only one reason why people eat meat – because they choose to and are therefore happy with what that means (animal welfare, animal deaths, climate impact etc,.)
Not always true. For instance though I choose oft-times to buy and eat meat (was raised on pork, pastry, cereal, frozen veg and bread) because like the taste of it, it’s on sale cheaply when am sometimes feeling too rushed/lazy to cook a complete protein veggie meal from scratch. I usually buy end of shelf-life/10pm about-to-be-binned fresh meat/fish deals if I eat any and then either cook immediately or freeze, same with roadkill (pheasant or rabbit).
Still not entirely ‘happy’ with my choice tbh, but I don’t beat myself up or ask too many questions about it. I let the more defensive militantly-projecting meat-lovers (sometimes IRL) have that pleasure, if they catch me either eating or recommending plant-based recipes 😉
It helps me to understand why dyna-ti thinks you are a bit militant.
Wonder if they feel the same way about people who boak at sprouts, greens, veggieburgers, soy milk, or amushrooms etc? Or about my friend who refers to cucumbers as a private part of satan? So many ‘food-choice militants’, it’s almost as if polarising, reactionary exaggeration is in vogue 🙄
Now if you’ll excuse me I have some (on offer 80p!) mass-‘farmed’ salmon avocado sushi to demolish, (once I can get through it’s non-recycleable multi-plastic fortress. Would it be better to have left it for the dustbin? Or the dustbin of my stomach? The dustbin of history would be preferable. Not ideal.
Late to this. Just to check my suspicions from the title, is this another insecure meat-eater thread? I see dyna-ti is here so it must be 😂
Because its natural to do so 😕
Edit: Suspicion confirmed on the previous page. Has anyone posted the bingo card yet?
I’d wager that most people in Western society today eat meat because they like it.
I don't know about most people, but being nutritious is a major part of its appeal to me.
The problem with making analogies to turds etc. is that animals have evolved to generally find nutritious things delicious and feel revulsion at unhealthy things, and also to feel suspicious of unfamiliar tastes. The reason we find turds revolting is because they are extremely unhealthy, same with rotten food.
A better analogy would be something that is unfamiliar, but nutritious, like wood grubs. People who eat them say they are very tasty, but getting over that first mouthful is probably the trick. That was my experience with sashimi - I needed a couple of beers to relax the first time and then I realized it was pretty tasty and that was that.
Why not follow it up though with something by Michalak. Especially that one about the Vegetarian diet and its association with mental disorders.
Offffffftttt punching down much?
Have you actually read the study and the more recent meta-analysis and references?
For those not trolling and wondering what Dyna-Ti is referencing, a recent meta-analysis of previous studies (including one by a guy called Michalak) into the correlation between meat-free diets and various mental health issues.
In summary it found that crossectional studies found a correlation between meat-free diets and mental illness but could not establish causation. Longitudinal study by Michalak showed that switching to meat-free diets imporved mental health.
So there we go, it shows the exact opposite of Dyna-Ti's implication.
Offffffftttt punching down much?
How far ‘down’ was the strawperson? Or for that matter, how high (up) is dyna-ti?
Don’t know what the OP intended with this thread but it escalated very quickly once a veggie was asked why they didn’t like meat. That has been my take-home from this.
Living in the UK for the last 19 years with someone who doesn't eat meat I have seen this happen IRL more times than I would have guessed. Even from strangers in the local market ( ie her being publicly shamed - not for buying (me) pork sausages, but for not trying them herself, and then for giving the reason why so as not to offend the butcher who wasn’t taking ‘no thankyou’ for an answer. That went down well. Disgusting behaviour from the local punters who joined in with the loud shaming ‘oh, we’ve got one here, one of those!’ Etc. She was buying me sausages, ffs!
Family meals were always a ‘laugh’ too.
OTOH I’ve never been lectured/berated/ridiculed/inquisitioned by a veggie/vegan for my eating meat/fish in their company or at all. But there are way less of them, so even my anecdotes are admittedly skewed.
Onwards…
is that animals have evolved to generally find nutritious things delicious and feel revulsion at unhealthy things
A quick look at the local kebab shop destroys this argument. Even if true (which is highly unlikely) you seem to be missing the point that human animals can easily overide their genetic conditioning with logical and moral decision making, and at quite an early age..
https://www.britannica.com/explore/savingearth/why-do-children-choose-not-to-eat-meat
In summary it found that crossectional studies found a correlation between meat-free diets and mental illness but could not establish causation. Longitudinal study by Michalak showed that switching to meat-free diets imporved mental health.
So there we go, it shows the exact opposite of Dyna-Ti’s implication.
No, it doesn't. A similar thing occurs with stretching. People who stretch often report more injuries than people who stretch less often. However, people who stretch also report that it helps their injuries. The explanation is that many people stretch because they are injured, so people who don't stretch have less injuries.
One possible reason for people becoming vegetarian is dissatisfaction with aspects of life. If that's the case, vegetarians may report more mental health issues, but also report that their mental health improved after switching.
You need to be very careful about what you conclude from correlational studies. They just show that things tend to co-occur, not the complex causalities involved.
Would it be better to have left it for the dustbin?
Possibly, in the long run. The more that the shops have to throw away the less they'll order next time.
Tend to agree, Molgrips. If they didn’t lock the bins I’d no-doubt be a (fatter) semi-freegan.
Now there’s a niche …
Great news johnnymarone... we have decided at Singletrack Towers that this is our TOTW... Thread of the week. And you win a prize. I will message you to get your address.
Well done... great stuff.
Singletrack Charlie
You could've gone with 'This Week's Outstanding Thread' for a more entertaining acronym! 😉
RM.
It helps me to understand why dyna-ti thinks you are a bit militant. I don’t think I have ever heard anyone compare eating meat with eating turds before.
Also the fact you feel the need to emphasise dead flesh, when it is obvious that no one would consider eating live flesh, suggests a degree of extreme militant views.
Whatever, "flesh" then, you're splitting hairs. I was trying to communicate how it makes me feel in a way that a reader might relate. (Again, because I was asked.)
If I were shouting it from the rooftops and making demands of others then 'militant' could be a fair criticism, but I'm not. Once more with feeling, I couldn't give a toss what anyone else eats.
Presumably the sight of someone eating meat has a similar affect on you Cougar as the sight of someone eating a turd would have on me?
It kinda does a bit. It used to a lot when I was younger, I held my breath walking past a fish market and couldn't be in the same room as someone frying bacon. I've reconciled it over the years but it still makes me boak occasionally if it's something particularly pungent or bloody. But as above, I wouldn't make a song and dance about it, I'm well aware that it's my problem rather than anyone else's. I'm about as far from being militant as can be, for decades I was somewhere between embarrassed and mortified about it.
‘This Week’s Outstanding Thread’
This Week's Awesome Thread?
It kinda does a bit. It used to a lot when I was younger
Thanks for clarifying Cougar. I thought you were probably exaggerating as I have never met anyone with a strong aversion to seeing someone eating meat, although I see now that you weren't.
It must have caused you problems going to restaurants with friends or family, or just seeing people eating meat produce in public.
I must admit that I find it off putting when queuing up at a checkout in Tesco and someone slaps a lump of raw meat on the conveyor belt in front of me. Especially for some reason chicken legs, there's something about plucked bird body parts which I find particularly unpleasant.
But it has never made want to throw up. I would just rather not look at it. In the same way that I would rather not look at the corpse of a recently killed fox or badger whilst cycling along a road.
Personally there are many vegetables that give me that reaction (nasty and makes me want to heave). Carrots, Mushrooms, Cauliflower, sprouts, cabbage, and a few other things
Mushrooms are not a vegetable
Actually feaces might be quite good for you if you have bowel issues - you can now have "feacal transplants" if yo have disordered gut bacteria and also getting mild e coli infections strengthens your immune system
I'm not helping am I?
previous studies (including one by a guy called Michalak) into the correlation between meat-free diets and various mental health issues.
correlation is not causation
feacal transplants
Doesn’t go in orally though.
correlation is not causation
True but you can’t ignore the evidence that it’s a possibility given diet has an impact on your mental health.
correlation is not causation
Whoever put together that graph has never sailed a container ship down the Somalian coast.
I must admit that I find it off putting when queuing up at a checkout in Tesco and someone slaps a lump of raw meat on the conveyor belt in front of me
Yes, similar reaction to folks in the meat aisle, wondering along and without a pause picking up some lump of shrink wrapped meat and putting in their trolley. I wonder if they'd act so Blithely if they'd have seen the last 24-48 hrs of how that got to the supermarket. Perhaps they wouldn't care, I dunno. I suspect (I have no evidence either way) the packaging chosen by supermarkets to dis-associate to what it actually is encourages people not to consider the origins of it.
Other people eating meat has no ill effect on me, and weirdly I quite like the smell of BBQ-ing meat. Still don't want to to eat it though.
