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I think @cougar and I are on the same page re meat.
Why would you eat that shit? It's the flesh of dead things.
Why would you eat that shit?
(between 6 months and 23yrs of age) for bioavailability of micronutrients necessary for cognitive development?
Why would you eat that shit?
Because its natural to do so 😕
Or should i say normal 😉
So, OK.
I would be interested to know your personal reasons for your vegetarian / vegan/ other diet.
I think @cougar and I are on the same page re meat.
Why would you eat that shit? It’s the flesh of dead things.
This isn't a million miles away. I find it revolting. It's that simple, really.
I don't want to eat meat. And I'm fortunate enough to live in a society where it's not necessary to eat it. So... why the heck would I?
Why (assuming you do) do you eat meat?
Because,
Because its natural to do so 😕
Or should i say normal 😉
... "we've always done it this way" is the worst justification to be doing anything. I've put some thought into my diet and made a decision. Have you? Or are you just doing what is "normal"?
Do animal concerns figure at all into your dietary choice?
Only in so far as it's a happy side-effect.
Were you raised vegetarian and know nothing else?
Quite the opposite, my family were dairy farmers. They sold up when I was quite young so I only have very vague memories of the farm, but my upbringing was a long chalk from being raised veggie. Hell, my gran being elbows-deep in gore might well have contributed to tipping me in the opposite direction.
Perhaps plants aren’t just sentient – maybe they’re cleverer than us. Like the Eloi and the Morlocks the twist in the tail might be that as advanced and sentient as we thing we are its actually us that are being farmed -we’re the crop not them.
Kinda like the mice in HHGTTG experimenting on us.
And mice have tails; plants don't.
Or is that just what they want us to think??
I think @cougar and I are on the same page re meat.
Why would you eat that shit? It’s the flesh of dead things.
It's actually very nutritious. Humans evolved as omnivores, with animal flesh a major part of our diet. Most humans find meat to be delicious, although I'm guessing that most don't know how sausages are made.
To the OP's question. Plants aren't sentient, they don't have feelings in the same way that animals do because they don't have nervous systems.
There is a thing called a Sentient Vegetarian diet. It separates sentient, static and mutative foods - sentient being those that provide vital energy to the body and are important for spiritual development.
The people that adhere to this diet are called Ommmmnivores.
Most humans find meat to be delicious, although I’m guessing that most don’t know how sausages are made.
I do. Well obviously
But there is a misconception, and you've highlighted it exactly, and in a negative manner that many play into simply because they dont understand the facts and reasons behind that noble art of making sausages.
I shall explain.
(This is obviously a retail establishment, ie a small family run butchers shop)
Sausages are meat based, but where does that meat and fat come from.
From the carcass of the cow(or bullock rather) that every other product in the shop comes from.
It's all a matter of what something costs, and making best use of that to maximize profit and to keep wastage to an absolute minimum.
So you buy a bullock as a side(2 sides per coo), and that side costs you for example £1 per lb, which weighs about 450lbs, sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less but about that.
Now. That side consists of muscle(the meat) fat, connective tissue(tendons, whats termed gristle and bone. Each part cost you £1/lb So the fillet steak cost you a £1/lb, and the fat cost you a £1/lb and the bones etc etc.
In preparation you need to trim fat and connective tissue from the mean to make it lean enough to sell, as customers now prefer lean over fatty cuts. Subtract the bone, the excess fat, the rest and it straight away reduces the weight by about a 1/3. So what you have left you have to cost to make up the original cost of the side, plus the profit, plus the staff wages, overheads etc etc.
So when trimming it you are left with the trimmings, and that is what goes into the sausage.
If you cannot sell or utilize those trimmings you are going to go out of business, so when you use them for sausagemeat, it needs to be of such quality, that the customer isnt put off, by for example it being too fatty, or gristly. If the customer rejects, or finds the sausage not to their liking, then they dont sell and if you cannot sell your trimming, again you go out of business, and usually within 6 months.
Mince. From your side you can produce certain cuts - Steaks for frying, quality like fillet and sirloin, rump, others suitable to casserole, other cut into pieces for stewing steak. The steaks will make you so much, stew is easy to produce from any cut, but again its a matter of you have so much and you need to sell the best for the most, and theres no point chopping sirloin into stew or mincing it or making sausage or burgers out of it. Theres more to it that this obviousness, as in you cannot easily fry meat from the forequarter because it will be tough, or the rump end because it will be dry.
So frying steak will make you so much, stewing cuts so much, casserole and so on and so forth. And the trimming is left over.
The trim is fat, but also meat, and the leaner parts of that trim can be minced, the fattier(to some degree) sausage. Its a bit of a weight up. Sausage is meat and fat, but not too much fat or the customer will reject it.
So to remain viable, you need to be able to sell your trimming in the form of mince and sausage and in any retail butchers shop, those are the two most important products. If the customer finds either not to be of the highest quality, then you cannot sell the trim, you lose profit, you cannot pay your bills and you go out of business.
So in a butchers shop, no matter how much or the grade of the beef(which will 99% of the time be grade A) the sausages and mince will always be the best of quality. They have to be.
Nobel prize-winning perhaps not, but I would be absolutely astonished if we didn’t have knowledgeable biologists amongst our number.
I have a PhD in wild flowers!
huh, hence Scarlet Pimpernel...makes sense now.
There is a thing called a Sentient Vegetarian diet.
Jains aren't supposed to kill anything to eat it. So their diet strictly speaking shouldn't include (for instance) root veg, but only things that can be picked or plucked from trees and bushes.
huh, hence Scarlet Pimpernel…makes sense now.
Also many years ago, like 15, I got banned so re registered with a smart arsed name....I also like the Scarlets rugby team.
This thread whilst being full of lots of shite does highlight that plants are not just free salad for animals, they have there own complex lives and as we are seeing in the last few decades hugely complex interactions with other organisms.
Jains aren’t supposed to kill anything to eat it. So their diet strictly speaking shouldn’t include (for instance) root veg, but only things that can be picked or plucked from trees and bushes.
Would they be allowed a little slither if beef, or even a leg of lamb, if it didn't kill the animal?
Has anyone mentioned Breatharians?
I have no idea how they do it, it seems almost unbelievable to me, but they get my utmost respect.
Would they be allowed a little slither if beef, or even a leg of lamb, if it didn’t kill the animal?
No idea, seems that it might go against the spirit of the thing though.
EDIT: A quick Google says that they don't eat anything from animals that has been produced with violence. So presumably eggs and milk are OK in some circumstances, but not the slice from it's leg.
Not even if it's died peacefully in its sleep?
Yes no maybe...I think that's a bit of a controversy in Jainism. I think some folks see it as a bit of a "get out clause" and others think you still shouldn't eat it. Had a long chat with one of my GPs a while back about all this sort of stuff (who is from a Jain background) I'll ask him
So in a butchers shop, no matter how much or the grade of the beef(which will 99% of the time be grade A) the sausages and mince will always be the best of quality. They have to be.
I'm sold. Sausages for dinner tonight for me.
OP, we become morally obliged to cannibalism. Obvs.
OP, we become morally obliged to cannibalism. Obvs.
We already know what vegetarians and vegans taste like 😉 😆
Why would you eat that shit? It’s the flesh of dead things.
There are many reasons not to eat meat but this isn't one of them, it's just playing with words.
Better than the flesh of live things though eh?
it’s just playing with words.
Ahem...
Better than the flesh of live things though eh?
Less of the ‘we’ please. Some of us happily eat animals regardless of their proven sentience.
“Please don’t make rash generalisations”
It’s the vegetarians who will have a new dilemna.
*makes a rash generalisation*
I'll rephrase @cougar
What i meant was meat eaters are already reconciled to eating sentient things so they will presumably have no moral qualm with extending that approach to sentient plants.
Vegetarians aren't reconciled, hence being vegetarian, so will have an additional consideration.
Jeepers that a quoted mess but you get my drift.
You have pre-supposed that everyone who doesn't eat meat does so out of moral considerations, and that's not the case. Some people are fine with killing animals for meat, but just don't like the taste of it themselves, and because we live in 21stC UK, don't have to eat it.
If science ever proves plants are properly sentient, whats left to eat?
Oysters.
Vegans, Cougar, you're welcome.
There are many reasons not to eat meat but this isn’t one of them
... in your opinion. Whereas in mine it's a primary driver not to eat it, it's nasty and makes me want to heave.
And I'm not alone even amongst omnivores. It's relatively easy to be a meat-eater once someone else has done all the wetwork and packaged it up into neat little chunks and slices for you. I'd wager that if everyone was told they could only eat meat that they'd prepared themselves, then were given them a rifle and a skinning knife and dropped in a field with all the chickens, baa lambs and other assorted fauna they could eat, we'd see rather a lot of overnight conversions.
What i meant was meat eaters are already reconciled to eating sentient things so they will presumably have no moral qualm with extending that approach to sentient plants.
Vegetarians aren’t reconciled, hence being vegetarian, so will have an additional consideration.
I think that's perhaps arse-backwards. Omnivore is (typically) the default, so by definition the vast majority of veggies+ will have given some thought about their diet. Whereas your meat eaters are probably doing what they've always done.
(And yes, this is a generalisation of course. I know omnivores who have given it a great deal of thought and decided that, on balance, they're going to choose to continue to eat meat. But I suspect they're a minority, certainly amongst the older generation.)
So, with that in mind, how would people on here feel if the only real benefit vegetarianism has , ie the fact you are claiming a non sentient life as food over a sentient firm, was negated.
What about those of us who just really like messing with people who's self identity is inextricably linked to bacon?
This changes nothing.
Would they be allowed a little slither if beef, or even a leg of lamb, if it didn’t kill the animal?
A bit like the Anthony Bourdain episode where they stab the cow to bleed it?
Dunno about the rest of you, but nope, not OK with that either.
plants are not sentient and science will never prove that they are because they are not.
Evolution can happen quicker than millions of years. https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/lizard-evolution-island-darwin
I’d wager that if everyone was told they could only eat meat that they’d prepared themselves, then were given them a rifle and a skinning knife and dropped in a field with all the chickens, baa lambs and other assorted fauna they could eat, we’d see rather a lot of overnight conversions.
Grow your own do you ?, a market gardener 😆 or do you buy your food out of the supermarket like the rest of us.
it’s nasty and makes me want to heave.
Personally there are many vegetables that give me that reaction. Carrots, Mushrooms, Cauliflower, sprouts, cabbage, and a few other things. I like potatoes mashed with turnip, onions, garlic.
However just because i find them disagreeable, i dont go around demanding others give them up too. Now that would just be silly now wouldn't it.
Almost as silly a suggestion as expecting people to kill their own dinner. I'm sure you've used the humanitarian argument, but in a field, with a gun, to have the animal suffer. So does that compute 😕
I wonder how big the country's carbon footprint would grow if you needed to suddenly plant and harvest veg as a main source of diet for some 67 million people. Or do you expect to bring back the plough ?, obviously not driven by horses, that would be cruel, so maybe dragged by people, or even the unemployed.
Yeah, lets follow those ideals and revert back to the middle ages 😆 Let's just hope theres not a drought, or there'd be tens of thousands of humans starving to death.
You dont eat meat. That is fine, nobody is attacking you for it, it is your choice, although feeling like heaving, that sounds like a psychological issue to me.
But fair enough, that is your choice and fine by me. I just wish you put as much effort into defending those who have their own choice of diet.
You're just making shit up to argue against and I'm not sure as I can be bothered any further.
I'm increasingly coming to the conclusion that you're either a deliberate troll or an idiot.
making shit up to argue against
It very much put me in mind of a recent description of broadcaster Andrew Neil (when he was with GBeebies):
“This is like watching an old man standing in the shower practising arguments in his head for a conversation that’s never happened against a person that’s never existed”
You’re just making shit up to argue against and I’m not sure as I can be bothered any further.
Welcome to STW
Naw, maybe im bored and sick of the shite you keep throwing out. Militant vegetarians sheesh.
dyna-ti
Personally there are many vegetables that give me that reaction (nasty and makes me want to heave). Carrots, Mushrooms, Cauliflower, sprouts, cabbage, and a few other things
Also dyna-ti
that (nasty and makes me want to heave) sounds like a psychological issue to me.
‘Projection’ comes to mind? 😉
(Tonight Matthew, I have been Carl Gustav Jung on ‘The Shadow’)
Keep it light tho eh?
Keep it light tho eh?
Well maybe you should follow that advice too eh ?, with your quotes and full on vids. Nothing like stirring the pot eh .
I recognize that having a physical reaction to a foodstuff is in the head. In all honesty I wouldnt say it makes me heave, more I dislike the taste of them, so I was actually agreeing with the sentiment.
Well done though on the Jung reference on psychological projection. Why not follow it up though with something by Michalak. Especially that one about the Vegetarian diet and its association with mental disorders.
But hey, its all me clearly. Though perhaps I'm just projecting the same thing from the opposite perspective. But yeah, clearly it's all down to me and my disgusting diet.
People asked questions. I attempted to answer those questions. If you don't like those answers, why are you even here reading this? Other threads are available.
However just because i find them disagreeable, i dont go around demanding others give them up too. Now that would just be silly now wouldn’t it.
If you can find anywhere in the history of the Internet, on STW or elsewhere, where I've even remotely suggested that I think that anyone else should eat what I eat (let alone "militantly") then you can have my bike. I couldn't give the remotest of tosses what anyone else puts in their face. Why do you?
Disproportionately defensive meat-eaters on the other hand, they're free with Tiger Tokens.
There is only one reason why people eat meat - because they choose to and are therefore happy with what that means (animal welfare, animal deaths, climate impact etc,.)
Getting a meat eater to accept that is another thing and a list of BS reasons always comes out on why they have to. Being a vegetarian for 40 years I have heard it all.
it’s nasty and makes me want to heave
Handy hint: If you cover it with garlic spread, it'll taste like garlic but still be just as nutritious.
Then it would be revolting and garlic-flavoured.
I no more want to eat dead flesh than I want to eat turds. Does that help in understanding at all?
If everyone else ate turds, continually told you how delicious and nutritious they were, spent half their lives going "but whhhyyyyyyy don't you eat turds?" and looking at you like a freak, would you go "oh, alright then, pass the garlic butter"?
Gods damned militant turd-avoider, coming round here and having the audacity to not eat things and wanting to eat your turd-free lunch in peace. Why do you think we have colons?
There has been a surprising amount of research on the effects of eating faeces. It turns out that it has very little nutritional value and making it taste like garlic wouldn't really help with that. Meat and vegetables, on the other hand, are quite nutritious so making them taste like garlic is well worth the effort.
For the purposes of an increasingly poor analogy, let's assume that they're highly nutritious.
The point was, nutritional value aside, that's about how much eating meat appeals to me.
Do people only eat meat because it's nutritious? That may be true in less developed parts of the world, but I'd wager that most people in Western society today eat meat because they like it.
I no more want to eat dead flesh than I want to eat turds. Does that help in understanding at all?
It helps me to understand why dyna-ti thinks you are a bit militant. I don't think I have ever heard anyone compare eating meat with eating turds before.
Also the fact you feel the need to emphasise dead flesh, when it is obvious that no one would consider eating live flesh, suggests a degree of extreme militant views.
Presumably the sight of someone eating meat has a similar affect on you Cougar as the sight of someone eating a turd would have on me?
I stopped eating meat about 30 years ago btw.
We have a culture going back thousands of years that involves eating meat because it is nutritious. Pretty hard for many to shake that off as it's deeply embedded.
There is only one reason why people eat meat – because they choose to and are therefore happy with what that means (animal welfare, animal deaths, climate impact etc,.)
Not always true. For instance though I choose oft-times to buy and eat meat (was raised on pork, pastry, cereal, frozen veg and bread) because like the taste of it, it’s on sale cheaply when am sometimes feeling too rushed/lazy to cook a complete protein veggie meal from scratch. I usually buy end of shelf-life/10pm about-to-be-binned fresh meat/fish deals if I eat any and then either cook immediately or freeze, same with roadkill (pheasant or rabbit).
Still not entirely ‘happy’ with my choice tbh, but I don’t beat myself up or ask too many questions about it. I let the more defensive militantly-projecting meat-lovers (sometimes IRL) have that pleasure, if they catch me either eating or recommending plant-based recipes 😉
It helps me to understand why dyna-ti thinks you are a bit militant.
Wonder if they feel the same way about people who boak at sprouts, greens, veggieburgers, soy milk, or amushrooms etc? Or about my friend who refers to cucumbers as a private part of satan? So many ‘food-choice militants’, it’s almost as if polarising, reactionary exaggeration is in vogue 🙄
Now if you’ll excuse me I have some (on offer 80p!) mass-‘farmed’ salmon avocado sushi to demolish, (once I can get through it’s non-recycleable multi-plastic fortress. Would it be better to have left it for the dustbin? Or the dustbin of my stomach? The dustbin of history would be preferable. Not ideal.