Given recent threads on here addressing sexism, racism, and political posturing and with Tin Tin currently doing the rounds at the cinemas, are Herge's books relevant in this day and age? Should they be available to children as a representation of the era in which they were written or should they be banned?
banning books.
those that criticise Herge's allegiances (or indeed tin tins enemies) may also take issue with this.
Its an interesting point really - like tom Sawyer and "****" or Guy Gibsons dog "****".
Guy gibsons dog in particular makes me cringe - however the context was rather different then
I see no point in banning or altering such things. I think its enough to know it was history and that things have changed. An Editors note might be the best way perhpas?
Should they be available to children as a representation of the era in which they were written
Yes, of course they should.
Did you know that 'Aunt Fanny' in the Famous Five books is now 'Aunt Franny'? Aaaaarrrgggggghhhhhhhh.
And don't get me started on 'The Dambusters'.
I still like to read the Frank Richards books about this bloke, even though I'm a bit of a Bunter myself:
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Historical revisionism is dangerous.
Better to learn from the attitudes of the past rather than pretend they didn't exist.
Was Tin Tin's dog called Snowy just because it's white?
Better to learn from the attitudes of the past rather than pretend they didn't exist
+1
Herge even called some of his early stories "the sins of my youth" and appreciated that he offended with them.
Better to learn from the attitudes of the past rather than pretend they didn't exist.
Agree with this. I don't like to see books, nursery rhymes, etc., 'updated' to be p.c.. Better they are used in education with a discussion of current views.
Better to learn from the attitudes of the past rather than pretend they didn't exist
+1 also.
Imagine my disappointment on reading a new version of Uncle Tom's Cabin, which was just one page about a wooden house that belonged to the brother of someone's dad.
I have but a vague childhood memory of Tintin books. What's wrong with them?
I see TinTin in the Congo as a product of its time - Herge was apparently a bit embarrassed about it himself in later life. I wouldn't tell my kids not to read it because of its casual racism though, I'd steer them away from reading it because it's rubbish, nowhere near as good as the later books. I wouldn't be adverse to an editorial comment giving a bit of context, but how many kids would read that?
My daughter (11) has already commented on the sexism in Enid Blyton books btw, entirely unprompted. She can't understand why Anne always has to cook for the rest of the Famous Five. Kids aren't stupid about this sort of thing.
Its an interesting point really - like tom Sawyer and "****" or Guy Gibsons dog "****".Guy gibsons dog in particular makes me cringe - however the context was rather different then
I see no point in banning or altering such things. I think its enough to know it was history and that things have changed.
I was right with you Teej, up to the point where you said:
An Editors note might be the best way perhpas?
Which for me totally undermines your well articulated case for viewing things in their contemporary context.
Rusty - top notch point.
There was some berk on this forum previously complaining that Guy Gibson was a racist because of his dog. You can't superimpose 21st Century values on someone who lived 60 years ago and judge them on that.
It's now 'Digger', isn't it?
She can't understand why Anne always has to cook for the rest of the Famous Five
Maybe she was the best at it?
I was thinking in the especially of kids books - just a short note to explain the context
" this book uses language that was in common use at the time but has fallen out of use as it offended some people" that sort of thing
Ditto Enid Blyton, André Gide, Axl Rose, William Burroughs to name a few people whose output I am fond of, but with 'reservations'.
I noticed that my daughter's school's version of 'Folk of the Faraway Tree' has been cleaned up of corporal punishment via Dame [s]Slap[/s] Snap. They will be 'cleaning up' Aunts Spiker and Sponge and Miss Truchbull next!
I have but a vague childhood memory of Tintin books. What's wrong with them?
It's true that looking at childrens' literature with an adult's mind often picks up things that pass children by. Although children these days are savvy enough to pick up on some of the casual racism and sexism in earlier childrens' books, a lot of what seems to pass them by may leave an underlying acceptance of views that these day are unacceptable.
I have but a vague childhood memory of Tintin books. What's wrong with them?
lots of anti communist/ pro fascist propaganda
racial stereo typing
colonial
it's interesting the herge had only spent one day outside Belgium (in France iirc) when his first story was published. His sources would have been feeding him some of this stuff.
When I was at Primary school (late 70's) I brought a book home called "Fattypuffs & Thinifers".
Can't remember the storyline. Something to do with fat people and thin people.
Imagine my surprise when I discovered it's still available to buy.
With a title like that, in this day and age I had expected it to be out of print or had the title molested by the PC brigade ...
Anyone care to comment on "Baa Baa Black Sheep"?
Guy gibsons dog in particular makes me cringe
It's a dog.
It's black.
It's called ****.
This is not meant to be offensive in any way.
For the love of christ just get over it. No I would not call a black guy a ****, but I'm quite happy to deal with the fact that in the 1940s it was a perfectly acceptable name for a black labrador retriever.
Anyone care to comment on "Baa Baa Black Sheep"?
Would you?
lots of anti communist/ pro fascist propaganda
racial stereo typing
colonial
Really? Gosh. Thanks for the info, I'd no idea.
Would you?
It falls into the [i]"didn't know it was offensive to some people"[/i] genre - which I think has been discussed a lot today.
Zokes - you missed
I see no point in banning or altering such things. I think its enough to know it was history and that things have changed.
Anyone care to comment on "Baa Baa Black Sheep"?
Yes,
Baa Baa Black sheep is statically 5 times more likely to be subject to a stop and search than Baa Baa White Sheep
I prefer Roget's adventures of Tintin.
He walked/ambled/perambulated/moved/skipped towards the door/gate/opening/hole in wall/entrance.... đŸ˜†
Tintin is great in general, and worth reading for the adventure - even if the books showcase period-based stereotypes. Except for Tintin in the Congo, that is... I find that one just reprehensible. It goes well beyond any of the other books.
As for Anne cooking for the famous five, I remember one book in which she practically has to force the others to let her do it 'because she loves so much to do it'. Might be sexist; but that, to me, seems like a reasonable explanation.
It falls into the "didn't know it was offensive to some people" genre - which I think has been discussed a lot today.
I didn't know it was offensive to some people. Aside from the caveat that "some people" read the Daily Mail, have I missed something?
It's a sheep. It's black. Hence the name. It's giving wool for it's master and a dame and a little boy down the lane, not smoking crack with its homies and popping caps in asses. Unless there's a lesser-known controversial second verse that I've never heard.
Baa Baa Black sheep is statically 5 times more likely to be subject to a stop and search than Baa Baa White Sheep
Loving your work.
I prefer Roget's adventures of Tintin.
And yours.
Baa Baa Black sheep's wool is more desirable than white wool.
As for Anne cooking for the famous five,
Never mind Anne, what about George, the cross-dressing transgender-to-be? Radical stuff in the 40's.
have I missed something?
[i]Some[/i] will point out that it is [i]black[/i] sheep who has a [i]"master"[/i], that he has a subservient relationship to ("Yes, Sir"), and that the forced production of bags of wool could be a metaphor for cotton.
Having said that, some nursery rhymes are genuinely offensive, but the original meaning is so lost that no one cares.
As a parent I have noticed the sub-text of most nursery rhymes is up for debate.
Ride a cock horse anybody?
And she was mistress of her trade?
Butcher, baker, Candle stick bod all in a bath together? Turn em out?
But Baa baa black sheep is about wool and wool tax and not racist I know this because I know everything and I have Google for a brain
Some will point out
Really? It's really not, though, is it. Isn't the 'three bags full' a naval saying originally?
some nursery rhymes are genuinely offensive, but the original meaning is so lost that no one cares.
I know there are a lot of urban myths and questionably etymologies, certainly.
I'm about to go get lunch, I think I might do a bit of reading.
Starter for ten,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baa,_Baa,_Black_Sheep
As with many nursery rhymes, attempts have been made to find origins and meanings for the rhyme. These include: ... A connection to the slave trade. This explanation was advanced during debates over political correctness and the use and reform of nursery rhymes in the 1980s, but scholars agree that it has no basis in fact.
Really? It's really not, though, is it
No. It's actually about rape.
Play fair
From the same page
[b]Origins and meaning[/b]As with many nursery rhymes, attempts have been made to find origins and meanings for the rhyme.
These include:
A description of the medieval 'Great' or 'Old Custom' wool tax of 1275, which survived until the fifteenth century. Contrary to some commentaries, this tax did not involve the collection of one-third to the king, and one-third to the church, but a less punitive sum of 6s 8d to the Crown per sack, about 5 per cent of the value.[2] This theory also depends on the rhyme surviving unrecorded and even unmentioned in extant texts for hundreds of years.A connection to the slave trade. This explanation was advanced during debates over political correctness and the use and reform of nursery rhymes in the 1980s, but scholars agree that it has no basis in fact.[3]
No I would not call a black guy a ****, but I'm quite happy to deal with the fact that in the 1940s it was a perfectly acceptable name for a black labrador retriever.
In the 1940s it was perfectly acceptable to refuse a black person a job on racial grounds, in the UK. As it was perfectly acceptable to refuse a woman a job because she was a woman.
In the 1940s homosexuality was illegal. It was perfectly acceptable to send someone to prison for their sexuality.
In Germany in the 1940s, it was perfectly acceptable to exterminate Jews, disabled people, homosexuals and other minority groups.
In the 1940s a 'civilised' nation found it acceptable to use an atomic weapon against hundreds of thousands of civilians.
Etc....
Isn't it good that times have changed somewhat?
It's a sheep. It's black. Hence the name. It's giving wool for it's master and a dame and a little boy down the lane, not smoking crack with its homies and popping caps in asses
Not quite sure what you mean by this, Cougar. Care to explain, before I froth at the mouth at the possibility of racial stereotyping gawn mayd here?
No. It's actually about rape.
Hush. (-:
From the same page
Sorry, yes, I meant to mention that.
Anyway, I found this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nursery_rhyme#Meanings_of_nursery_rhymes
Obviously not an exhaustive list, but the vast majority of explanations there are essentially fictional. The [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ride_a_cock_horse_to_Banbury_Cross ]Cock Horse[/url] theory would seem to be nonsense as well. I'd suggest that the problem there is simply that sir has a dirty mind. (-:
elf - I guess what he means is the black sheep is not a negative sterotype of black youth
LWA?
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Not quite sure what you mean by this, Cougar. Care to explain, before I froth at the mouth at the possibility of racial stereotyping gawn mayd here?
That's just the point, that the rhyme was innocent and wasn't guilty of racial stereotyping. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
I have an uncontrollable habit of talking about serious subjects in light-hearted language, it's a bit like Tourette's, except I tic puns.
Liking it ditchjockey
elf - I guess what he means is the black sheep is not a negative sterotype of black youth
Gotcha. Glad I asked! đŸ˜³
Soz; bin using a fair bit of glue today, probbly a bit confuddled with that and all the nonsense on here today...
I guess what he means is the black sheep is not a negative sterotype of black youth
Would it be naughty of me to remind you that, in an earlier thread, you called this the "Jim Davidson Defence".
Transferring the point I was trying to make then to this context, if you perceived that '3 bags of wool' was a reference to individual portions of crack cocaine, you could extrapolate that Baa Baa Black Sheep is a metaphor for a young man of Afro-Caribbean descent, who is carrying out business with his dealer, his crack ho' and another young man who he's weaning onto a drug habit.
Someone could come up with that interpretation, but most sane people would regard it as utter nonsense and clearly not a meaning intended by the original author. In that context, would it be legitimate for the person who's given it this 'drug' interpretation to call for it to be banned for racial stereotyping?
Aha
ditch jockey - got the point you were making now.
I even opened another thread to explore it a bit more but you didn't pick up on it.