[Closed] If Carlsberg did inquests on dead spys

I wish they'd shut up about the bondage websites and women's clothing.

I wish they'd shut up about the bondage websites and women's clothing.

Why?
Is it stirring something in you?

Utterly bizarre that they dont know/find the true cause. cant they hack/restore the iphone? The clothes/wigs do seem to be a red hearing and how did the know the value? I doubt he earnt much.

Scuzz I agree, I really feel for his family having all of that played in open court. hideous case, guessing the review team will now be onto that one. I hope for his family they eventually get some sort of closure.

Utterly bizarre that they dont know/find the true cause.

I'm surprised they couldn't identify what time he was killed from his body and entymology .....

get some sort of closure.

Zipper and padlock appear to be effective!

Im talking about other known information; phone, pc, logs/bills/records, forensics on the flat etc. It doesnt make sense.

His GCHQ salary wouldnt be great, why no more DNA in the flat, sightings, fears of victim, email traces, forumsetc

seen the video of a guy struggling to get in the bag. imagine trying to put a dead guy in the bag.. well nigh impossible. if there was such a large collection of female clothing to support a tv theory, where are all the other 'accessories' that such a hobby would require? surely somebody spending 20k on a 'hobby' would have all the stuff you dont spend 3.5k on a bike but dont have any tyres?

Horatio would have had it sorted in under an hour.

I find it quite strange that the whole story has actually been made public. Did MI6 bump him off and tried to discredit him by planting bondage stuff etc, do you think?

I hear Prince Philip's whereabouts on the night in question are still unknown

[img] [/img]

I work in the public sector and if a member of staff hasn't phoned in work by 10am advising of their absence we ring them or their next of kin or named contact then go round and visit if we get no response.It's part of duty of care.
Can't believe his line manager at MI6 waited a week.....

All this will vanish without a trace, MI6 were involved.

If a spy dies in anything other then mysterious circumstances, then they've pretty much failed. Well done that man.

If a spy dies in anything other then mysterious circumstances, then they've pretty much failed. Well done that man.

8)

so was he selling stuff to China, Russia ?

or was the murder a member of the cabinet , royal family, Saudi prince, web coe ?

I think some people have been watching too much CSI.

There has been some weird stuff in the press, as in why report those facts in that way weird.

"£20,000 of women's clothes", why say that, who put that value on, why even give a value (although journalists seem to be obsessed with the price of stuff) ?

It's meaningless anyway, if he shopped at TKMax or Primark that would be several warehouses. If he went designer original thats 4 pairs of shoes.

I mean WTF ??

I think we need to look at Lord Lucan a bit harder.

I saw Lord Lucan very very early one morning walking in a London street with a woman, just before he disappeared.

Very odd case, or should that be bag ? 😆

Anyhow I can't believe they can't find out more. Some one else was involved in his death, yet they can not find any forensic evidence ie not one fingure print, or shred of DNA in the flat ?!!?

You would have thought that if it was some weird stuff going on between him and a partner, which ended up with them deciding to put him in a bag (never done it for me really) then you would expect some fingure prints/DNA/bodily fluids to be some where in the flat.

The complete abscence of anything makes me come to the conclusion that some one/people knew exactly what they were doing to leave no evidence.

imagine trying to put a dead guy in the bag.. well nigh impossible.

The reporting of the inquest suggested it was easier to put someone in the bag than it was to get into it without leaving fingerprints, footprints etc all over the bathroom. I think one of the experts said it was likely that he was put in the bag outside the bathroom (be that in the flat or elsewhere) and then the bag was placed in the bath.

I guess there's still the possibility it was bondage gone wrong and the other party decided to cover up the accidental death rather than end up in court or what have you. Which would probably be why they can't be sure it was any sort of intentional killing rather than an accident and then an attempt to hide.

If it was bondage gone wrong then the other party knew quite a lot about cleaning up a crime scene and destroying evidence. Not sure that the average person that had just caused the death of someone they were intimate with would have been quite so thorough.

Just to have the forethought to put the heating on high and put the bag in the bath is pretty calculating. That's leaving aside the more obvious stuff relating to removing all traces foot and finger prints.

Why put the bag in the bath ?? Did they leave the water running ?? I guess he could have died somewhere else and been carried in.

Yuck, imagine the smell, surprised the neighbours didn't notice.

If it was bondage gone wrong then the other party knew quite a lot about cleaning up a crime scene and destroying evidence.

Not really, you are assuming that the flat is the crime scene, rather than just the location the body was left to be found.

The question is perhaps how much evidence is there that wasn't made available to (or hidden from) the coroner.

If Carlsberg did inquests on dead spys

They'd spell spies properly.

Why put the bag in the bath ?? Did they leave the water running ??

He lived in a flat didn't he? Often and rather sadly, the first sign that someone (usually elderly and lonely) has died in a flat is the downstairs neighbours wondering/complaining about the stains in the plaster in their ceiling. Not so of course if the poor soul is in the bath. Bleurgh.

Yes that makes sense. They really thought that one through. Let's hope they are one of our spooks (brave, fearless heroes) and not one of the enemies (dastardly cowards).

When this first was in the news i thought that's all very odd and i bet he didn't do that to himself.

Now after a major police inquiry by i assume a really good team and a coronor's inquest we know "it's all very odd and he is very unlikely to have done it to himself.

Not really, you are assuming that the flat is the crime scene, rather than just the location the body was left to be found.

True, I had jumped to the conclusion that the crime scene was the flat, might not have been although carrying the body any distance would have been awkward even for a big fella.

Thats a very good point. Who says the 'act' happened inside the flat. The bag could have been used to transport his body discreetly/neatly with the external surface cleaned down carefully before lifting into the bath. Two blokes could have carried the bag and it'd been chosen for sealed/cleaniness/strength.

I use a similar Mountain Equipment one and its been amazing for over 5yrs (No spies carried).

The bag was used/known to be good, there was no hair (if you murdered someone you'd leave at least a hair in the flat unless you KNOW to avoid this- ie a pro). If it was kinkiness gone wrong the other person would be flustered/leave something behind.

Me thinks he came in the back of a van, carried in in the dead of night, the heating whacked up to aid decomposition/to cover any tracks/traces etc)..

I think it was a sign. A pro would have made him look like an accident, the dresses/wigs weren't enough- almost an amateur ploy so maybe his love of dressing up WAS real but the murder was meant to be obvious to the MI6?

Now I may be wrong on this, but don't some or all inquests have juries rather than a coroner just deciding for themselves?

"True, I had jumped to the conclusion that the crime scene was the flat, might not have been although carrying the body any distance would have been awkward even for a big fella."

If he was put in the bag else where its still pretty good going to carry him in to the flat and put him in the bath, turn the heating up etc etc without leaving one trace of evidence. That would take planning and forward thinking.

That would take planning and forward thinking.

I don't think so, if you want to make sure there is no evidence, you wouldn't put the body in the location where its most likely to be found. I can't help but think that an amateurish attempt to cover the evidence has got lucky, or the evidence has been kept from the coroner for whatever reason.

Or it was meant to send a message (abit wierd)

Or he was incapacitated in the flat and the other party(s) meant to comeback and move the body elsewhere but he was discovered before they could.

To the OP, I don't think it's at all obvious that it was a murder.

Yep and not by an amateur bondage fan who had lucky amazing forensic masking-skills either.

amazing forensic masking-skills either

Its all sounding a bit too James Bond to me, I don't think that the secret services really operate in that way, more about information and misinformation than clandestine murders.

And neither am I sure that forensics is the exact science that CSI has lead many to believe.

Most crimes are solved by criminals blabbing or very basic mistakes, not by the amazing deductive powers of Hollywood detectives.

>>I wish they'd shut up about the bondage websites and women's clothing.
Why?
Is it stirring something in you?

His private sexuality is playing an important role in the media coverage, even though no link has been established between his sexuality and cause of death. Yes, they tested to see if he could have got into the bag himself, but this test would take place if [i]you[/i] were found dead in a bag - it's a fundamental way of determining if someone else was involved.

The guy was a brilliant mathematician who will now be remembered as a sexual deviant, for no reason other than to satisfy the public's insatiable appetite for weird news stories. I mean, a two page spread in the Independant skewed toward his sexuality being the root cause, with no evidence to support it? It's like [i]Joanna Yeates and the case of the Missing Pizza[/i] all over again, (incidentally, she may also have been in a holdall bag at one stage) except missing pizza doesn't shame a family in the eyes of a homophobic public.

Scuzz good point.

Scuzz exactly, this is horrific for his family! No longer is he the M16 spy found dead in a bag!

As for everyone muttering on about forensics, you will be surprised at the lack fo forensics in investigations, this really isn't CSI! I have worked on a long running rape where a male was kidnapping girls off the street and raping them ... no forensics, bloody stabbings NO forensics!!!! It happens, it's not a crazy magical forensic recovery world out there, no this is reality, and that includes people committing offences on the spur of the moment, this isn't people attending addresses in white suits, gloved up to murder someone.

As for his death, when they initially speculated about it being murder they mentioned if he was murdered they don't think it was the flat. A very tragic story and maybe one day the review team will progress, but with M16 having hampered the investigation the chances get slimmer as each day progresses. May he RIP and his family get some kind of closure.

Munqe-chick as I have watched countless episodes of Traffic Wars and a few CSI's I feel I am more of an expert than your mere years of actual Policework 😆

Lol @ Hora...I imagine you have seen hundreds more of those TV programmes that me!! Problem is that is what a jury consists of people who watch CSI.. but that's a whole different topic of discussion.

I've never seen a CSI. I've seen 'the Bill' but that was circa 1990.

I'd be terrible on a Jury as I'd take one look at the person and think 'he looks guilty' 😉

I feel sorry for the guy caught up in the CIA battery sting . The yank jury will know from the films that the English guy is always a baddie.

I feel sorry for the guy caught up in the CIA battery sting . The yank jury will know from the films that the English guy is always a baddie.

I blame Alan Rickman.

Completely his fault.

I feel sorry for the guy caught up in the CIA battery sting

He doesn't strike me as being stupid or naive. He might not have actually asked what they are being used for (possible) but he would have known where they were heading, or at the least possibly masking destination/shipping docs altered etc so it would have wondered..

Arms etc get traded around the world to Regime's etc and its money that talks not ethics.

Until someones caught and then does the 'UK Citizen in Bangkok jail' defence..

Or he was incapacitated in the flat and the other party(s) meant to comeback and move the body elsewhere but he was discovered before they could.

They were a bit lazy then. Wasn't he there for 10 days? It's not like "I need to take those bags of grass clippings to the tip" then forgetting they're down the bottom of the garden.

Dumbest comment I heard on the radio was after reporting that the experts all agreed it was impossible to have locked himself in the bag the news person on the radio said "this means there's a strong possibility someone else was involved". 🙄

Hmmm.. hot flat.. in the bath... maths genius...

I reckon he constructed a very carefully engineered automatic bag locking device out of ice.

You could say...

[img] [/img]

.. he iced himself.. YeeeeeeeeAAAAAAhhh...

Interesting report on The Register detailing how they seem to have failed to extract all possible evidence from electronic devices at the scene of the crime.

[url= http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/05/03/gareth_williams_inquest/ ]The Register news item.[/url]

I reckon it was his boss. Obviously a Spook himself so has the knowledge, then failed to tell anybody that he hadn't turned up for work, in a clever reverse psychology ploy, as reporting him missing would have been less obvious and therefore make him look more guilty. I think. Something like that.

I like to think that if I was locked in a bag in a bath for 10 days somebody might miss me. Although my cat may have eaten bits of me by then.

I like to think that if I was locked in a bag in a bath for 10 days somebody might miss me. Although my cat may have eaten bits of me by then.

molgrips - Member
To the OP, I don't think it's at all obvious that it was a murder.

I don't think I ever said it was, merely commented on the fact that the inquest thought someone else was probably involved.

yeah the spooks apparently did a factory restore on his iphone b4 handing it back to the police

if he had met anyone before hand thats the most likely place to have a record of it

i reckon he was blackmailing george osbourne about his secret cross dressing fetish......... the man had to go*

* if ive inadvertantly hit on the truth here expect this to be my last post ever