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One of the things I love about STW is how sometimes a thread can morph into something interesting!
From personal experience, I've come to the conclusion that gender identity and sexuality can often be pretty fluid. Many people don't even think about it - the majority associate with the gender they were born with, and the dominant heterosexual identity. So it can sometimes come as a surprise that not everyone else is the same, and that there are many, many people out there who have different gender identities and sexualities from the 'norm' (Rachel, emsz, Adam, myself to name just a few). Personally, I don't seem to have a 'gender distinction' button - for me when it comes to who I am attracted to, whether someone is male or female has no greater of lesser significant than if they have brown or blonde hair. But on the subject of terminology, I hate the term 'bi-sexual' - urgh! (Might have to adopt Binners 'half rice / half chips' description instead 🙂 ). Which I guess just reinforces the point about respecting whatever term or description the person concerned prefers to use.
Going back to the OP, I think it's a shame that your wife decided that this counted as 'attention-seeking behaviour' and therefore removed the justifiable right of the person she was speaking to, to speak out and be confident and proud of their identity.
Rachel - what are your thoughts about the 'trans' programme? I've found it pretty interesting, and so far it doesn't seem to have descended into the pits of 'reality tv'?
Setting was a doctorate level psychology course.
Did your wife fail?
half rice half chips - love that!! Yes, I know what you mean about its the person first, second and third...
The programme has been reasonably good so far - a few things have made me cringe but that's to be expected - there's a story they need to tell that the public can grasp. The 'real' life of a trans person is way, way more boring than TV can cope with so they have to spice it up, a lot. They do that by looking for spicy participants, giving them alcohol and only showing the spicy bits out of hours and hours of filming. Therefore, what you get just isn't representative of real life.
The reality of my life (which is the only one I've lived so you'll have to bear with me) is just the same as anyone's - I go to work, ride my bike, drink beer etc etc etc. I still travel around Europe like my colleagues (Germany on Tuesday, Switzerland next week - it's a hard life) and nothing exciting happens - I don't get quizzed by passport control, I don't see shocked people in pubs, I don't get crazy people saying they can't work with me. It's just not like that.
I'm hoping they show some of Donna's fire eating - she's really good!!
Rachel
Even the most bigoted hetro male started off in the womb as a female.
Not till the y chromosome comes along do we develop the interest in poo and guns.
There is always going to be blurring of the lines.
From what I have seen from the documentary the ladies to men seem to face the worst of the surgery. No one would go through all that just to be the centre of attention.
Actually I would have found that very interesting
and certainly comes under interesting fact of an individual
and not Attention seeking of an individual.
Obviously your wife and yourself are not open minded to accept
such a person which makes me understand why such
persons go through hell to be what they are meant to have been.
You think you guys have issues?
Try being a bovo-sapien hybrid.....
😉
What's the difference between Sbz and a male pre op trans-sexual?
One is seeking attention for their prick, the other is ....
I don't understand some folk.
I'm of the opinion that if a person holds a paticular view or belief, or if that person does something that has no intention or implication of harm or malice to others, then who are we to judge. We meet others every day of whom we have no knowledge of their life and experiences up until that moment, and some of us feel compelled to make a judgement in that split second.
I don't understand transgender, or whatever the correct term is, but then I don't need to because it doesn't affect me. All I need to do is accept - and this is the important bit. If I just accept that somebody has chosen to do something because they feel so strongly about their own personal identity, then I can treat them as an individual and not feel compelled to insult or belittle them.
Reading the OP's comment it's almost as if it is his wife who is attention seeking. Why make an issue of something that wasn't an issue. Sure the other lady might have been attention seeking, but let others judge that rather than assuming editorial rights.
There is far too much other stuff going on in this small world of ours to be worrying about what people choose to do in their own personal lives.
Mrs SBZ is the least judgemental person I've ever met, she married me remember. Her point of view was that if the person wanted to share it with people then it should be them that shares it. No judgement was made on what this person had done with their life.
To take it to the logical extreme - if the fact you were asked to share was that the person had been gang raped and as a result contracted HIV, or indeed was a serial killing paedo - would you share that information in this context?
SBZ. As it happens, I agree with you that in your wife's position I would not have wanted to pass on that information to the group. Mind you, I would have tried to extract something actually interesting; I worry for a person that thinks that's the most interesting thing in their lives. Surely there must be [b]something[/b] interesting they have achieved.
Having said that, I remember starting a job once and we had a meeting in a pub where the same question was used. I said that as far as I could remember I was still barred from it...
Rachel
I don't know your wife, it was just the feeling I got from what was written, but I'm sure you're right.
W.r.t. your question in return, on the first point I think that's a very different scenario, so I'd have to question with the person whether they really wanted to share that information with the group, I'd also need to consider whether the person had really got over the trauma. You see the difference here is that the original post was about a persons choice, whereas this now becomes about something that was done to someone and the resulting impact on that person. Who knows what I'd do with the second revelation, can't see it ever coming up in conversation?
So, this perosn decides that this is a fact about themselves which they would like to share. Given that it is in the context of telling a 'secret', she figures it would be a lot better to do it like this then find some contrived context in which she approcahes people individually and tells them, trying hard to move faster than gossip and rumour. Instead your wife decides it's best if she doesn't share the information in this way and the other person now has to worry that they've told someone and thengossipmand rumours will start. Still at least your wife gets to decide who is and isn't allowed to have the information, good thing she is so non-judgemental. I mean imagine what would happen if the person themselves decided how the information might be shared!
To take it to the logical extreme - if the fact you were asked to share was that the person had been gang raped and as a result contracted HIV, or indeed was a serial killing paedo - would you share that information in this context?
Are you really comparing the scenarios? In what way is being a serial killing paedo on the the same logical chain as some someone who has been through gender reassignment?
I don't think you'll make many friends comparing anyone to a murdering paedophile, except maybe Hitler (who always seems to pop up when talking about 'logical extremes'), butI think I would feel obliged to share the information there was a dangerous individual in our midst. Unless the woman in your example is dangerous there is no logical connection.
Strange what is revealed in these posts, i can see that it is quite likely that your wife is the most non-judgemental person you know, and it is not particualrly surprising that she married you.
I'm not comparing anyone to anything. Merely pointing out that there is a line beyond which people wouldnt be willing to share information and that where that line is varies from person to person. Who is to say which persons line is more valid than anothers?
Mrs SBZ is the least judgemental person I've ever met, she married me remember.
Which leads me to think, you're probably more of a test subject to her then.
Your wife is the new Jane Goodall, and I claim my five pounds.
I find the idea of a person being described as 'it' deeply offensive but then i wouldn't expect much more from the OP to be honest.
One of the things that confuses people who are not trans is the idea that gender identity and sexual orientation can be - and often are - two entirely seperate issues. A friend of mine underwent the trans process and yet now lives in a very happy lesbian relationship. Her issue was with her gender identity, not her sexuality as she has always been attracted to women.
On the subject of the TV programme 'My Transsexual Summer' i rather suspect that pub was a set up.
As an aside - my wife hadn't realised that the person was transgender or whatever the correct term is. She had put the deep voice, slurred speech down to some sort of indeterminate neurological condition.
If you were born a bloke, but thought you were really a woman trapped in a male body and been through all the relevant medical treatments, and people saw you as female - why would you want to point out that you were infact not born female?
Can you imagine if Grayson Perry had covered up is dressing up? No doubt when it all came out his professional life would have been ruined ( assuming he would be where he is without the dresses) and he would have a bit of trouble explaining it to his family.
As he has been open from the outset he has done rather well out of it and its really not an issue any more.
So I think the lady did the right thing heading all the rumours off at the pass.
One of the things that confuses people who are not trans is the idea that gender identity and sexual orientation can be - and often are - two entirely seperate issues
Correct! All this and more. Sex Is pretty much dichotomous, male or female, but gender is not. Folks are variations between 2 extremes, if the are even on a linear scale! Sexual orientation is more varied once again. Just because these things tend to be in 'aligned' there is no reason they need to be.
If you were born a bloke, but thought you were really a woman trapped in a male body and been through all the relevant medical treatments, and people saw you as female - why would you want to point out that you were infact not born female?
Because it was something you were proud of? It was something you felt celebratory about? It spoke of an epic personal journey younhad made?
Now it's your turn you try and think of some, then let your wife try.
So I think the lady did the right thing heading all the rumours off at the pass.
Except someone else thought they knew better.
As an aside - my wife hadn't realised that the person was transgender or whatever the correct term is. She had put the deep voice, slurred speech down to some sort of indeterminate neurological condition.
I'm starting to think that your wife might not be quite as non-judgemental as you initially led us to believe.
Maybe someone cleverer than me could post that picture of Fatima again next to one of Dana International.
Then we can go through our checklist of what is a man and what is a woman and see who is who.
She had put the deep voice, slurred speech down to some sort of indeterminate neurological condition.
Now you're just trying too hard.
Jamie - sadly not. That is true also.
If you were born a bloke, but thought you were really a woman trapped in a male body and been through all the relevant medical treatments, and people saw you as female - why would you want to point out that you were infact not born female?
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I think this speaks volumes about your attitude toward this subject.
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You are basically suggesting that, if the surgery and treatment goes well, and you make a convincing job of it, then you should keep it quiet and just hope you "get away with it" without anyone noticing.
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Rather than be open with people about it, and let them know how proud you are that you had the strength and courage to change your life for the better and make yourself happier.
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Zulu, how does your wife feel about using the same toilet as the him /her/it, and how do you yourself fell about using the same toilet if only a single cubicle is available and empty, but has just been used by the person in question.
Whats the name of the trans programe on channel 4
No - it suggests that you're being judgemental and that that's the approach you think you would take if you'd been through the same thing.
Project - neither of us could care less about who or what uses the toilets that are in. (what referring to if an armadillo decided to use a toilet with us we wouldnt care)
If you were born a bloke, but thought you were really a woman trapped in a male body and been through all the relevant medical treatments, and people saw you as female - why would you want to point out that you were infact not born female?
And then somebody recognises you, and your cover is blown , you find good freinnds deserting you, you become the office joke with some,your boss starts a toilet moment as to wht to do, youre transfered to somewhere else and the history goes with you.
Oh and Zulu, HIV, is an illnes just like cancer, heart disease or many more, it just has a sexually attached stigma to it.
No - it suggests that you're being judgemental and that that's the approach you think you would take if you'd been through the same thing.
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Not quite, its not [b]my approach[/b], it's the approach that the person in question chose to take.
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Until your wife decided she knew better.
project - i suspect that your post is more about your prejudices than mine.
HIV doesnt have a sexual stigma attached to it. There are many more ways of transmitting HIV than through sexual contact.
nealglover - i dont know how to make this any more basic for you. If someone is so keen to become female and live as a female - why broadcast the fact that you weren't born that way.
The long and short of it was that wife did not give a single **** about the history of this individual. just wasnt prepared to pass this information on as it was her personal opinion that it was not her place to do so.
[i]some of the old guys were priceless and seemed very accepting[/i]
it's often the case IME
I'm not getting involved in this, it's waaay too early and I'm waaay to hungover
....nealglover - i dont know how to make this any more basic for you.
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I think I already explained why above ?
And others have explained it too.
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Trust me, you don't need to make it any more simple for me, I just don't agree with you.
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Repeating it, and trying to insult my intelligence won't make my agreement any more likely.
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Edit: didn't you say your wife thought the person was just being "attention seeking" ?
If that's the case, it sounds like she made her judgement.
[i]If someone is so keen to become female and live as a female - why broadcast the fact that you weren't born that way[/i]
oh FFS there are soooo many reasons they may think like that, here's one Perhaps they're ever so proud of who they are?
I'm not getting involved in this, it's waaay too early and I'm waaay to hungover
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oh FFS there are soooo many reasons they may think like that, here's one Perhaps they're ever so proud of who they are?
😀
I've had coffee now, and I'm mostly human again.
I'm going for a run now. 😆
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I'm going for a run now.
Likewise. Have been waiting for the fog to lift to take the road bike out, as I have no hivis/lights yet, but does not look like it's going to clear.
Plus I ate enough biscuits yesterday to sink a battleship.
Missus made a great point earlier. She thinks that the person was just a tosser, based on other things that they were saying and doing throughout the day. Also thinks that just becauce they're transgender or whatever that it doesnt preclude them from being a tosser.