Alfa GT, secondhand - they look nice, at least.
Renault Megane dCi 175? room for the bikes and the offspring. Failing that, the STDCI Fords are supposed to be quite nippy. None of them are exactly sportscars, but they're perhaps more practical than a TT.
Why isn't a TT practical? Unless the children are older (too tall) it will fit in two adults and two children. It doesn't have Isofix for child seats, but it does have room in the boot for most smaller buggies and will easily take a bike or a big shopping trip's worth of bags.
Not that my kids get in mine - we have a Mazda for that 😉
Mx5
There isn't a diesel MX5.
Mastiles...when did you last put a bike in the back of your TT??? Or a car for that matter.....lol
If you want an "economical" two-seat sports car, then go lightweight and get an Elise, or one bit further and get a Caterham.
Schrickvr6, Isn't the new TT a completely different car to the golf? The MkI TT was a Golf in a pretty dress, but I thought the new one was it's own car & not a rolling hatchback chassis with different body work. That'll explain why it handles better. Could be wrong, mind.
Most diesels can be re-mapped to silly figures, but I would be concerned with how the ancillaries cope over time. My Ibiza can be re-mapped from 130bhp up to about 190bhp if you really wanted. But you'd probably get clutch issues not long after and have to uprate that - £750 minimum plus the turbo will probably have a shortened life.
Most places will map it to about 170bhp as a 'safe' map that won't tear the car to pieces in no time at all. Go much higher & you need the intercooler replaced for a bigger front mounted one, as well as new clutch.
Plenty of people on the seatcupra website have had the 130bhp TDi version re-mapped, but I am just not convinced about the long term reliability of it.
molgrips - Member
Only 5mpg worse than my 130hp diesel focus but way faster.
Is that actually accurate tho? I think the increased fuel economy of recent years is a lot down to the fact that manufacturers are much better at fixing the tests. My mate's Skoda Octavia TDi was meant to get 57mpg but apparently never got more than 49 with gentle driving.
Well, my Octy 1, while it's not a sports car by any means, as it's based on a Golf iv, has 110bhp, and last Sunday I drove from N.Wilts to South Mimms, around 120miles, to pick up a new set of wheels. I stuck to 70mph, with a few slower sections, and the dash computer said 63.8mpg, and 61.0 overall by the time I got home with A-road driving from Newbury. Personally I don't think that's bad at all.
To me diesel and sports should not mix, imagine the scene, lovely countryside, flash topless car, then you pull up at a local for a refreshing drink, only the ambience is ruined by that lovely tractor sound 😉
Sorry but sports cars should have a grumbly V8 or a mad revving 4 pot.
The most frustarting thing about diesels to me is the fact you just get going and the revs run out 😥
hmm. not many sportscars mentioned above. and a tt comparable to an elise? idon'tthinkso!
the reason oil burners aren't fitted to many sportscars is because they're not that compatible, or at least the traditional characteristics of a diesel, lots of torque low down, but running out of puff, even with a turbo, higher up, don't make for safe, happy driving in a lightweight car. much of the issue with quick cars is getting the power down effectively. the reason the v8 tvrs have such a rep for being monsters, is the massive levels of torque low down - squeeze the gas too much low down, in particular when it's wet, and you'll be saying hello to the hedge a lot quicker than you expected, unless you're ready for it, and many people really aren't. lotus had to neuter the suspension on the mk2 elise because people generally used to fwd couldn't handle a 1.8k series for god's sake!
when you get the car up to speed, and floor it, you want a nice wide rev range and the engine singing as the needle goes skywards, rather than it all running out of rattly puff at 3.5k. admittedly modern diesels are a lot better at that stuff than they were, but even so it all comes at a price.
fact is, when you're looking at sportscars, a bit like bikes some might say, you can't just forget the few extra kgs here and there, cos it all adds up, and detracts from ultimate performance.
that's why the 7 still exists as a viable product. simple + power/weight.
Stumpy -
Pretty sure the mk2 TT is the A5 shared platform.
My 1.9 pd130 has been running near enough 240hp and over 330lb/ft(now nearer 390)since 7k miles, now coming up 30k. The only thing to go wrong in that time is a wire snapped on the map sensor, still even got the original standard clutch.
The more the engine has been tuned the better the economy has got.
The manufacturers figures are never accurate; as far as I'm aware
They used to be. My Ibiza was right on the money, and they used to say that the combined figure was about what you'd get. Not so these days mind.
As for the merits of diesels in sports cars, blahblahblah. I'm certainly not going to rag the car on its limit around public roads (that'd be bad) but in any case power delivery wouldn't be a problem if you know how to drive. A sports car to me is about nice handling and a reasonable amount of pace. Kind of like batting along nice singletrack on your mtb rather than getting kitted out for monster DH.
In any case I asked about diesels, I didn't ask for a lecture about why I'm wrong. If you like being able to thrash the engine to 7krpm, I like being able to go in any gear at low revs. Plus I sure as hell ain't buying any car that does less than 40mpg.
[i]They used to be. My Ibiza was right on the money, and they used to say that the combined figure was about what you'd get. Not so these days mind.[/i]
They never have been as tests are done on a rolling road not real road tests.
I'm sorry your have obviously not even thought this through at all !
If you want a sports car, then you want to drive quickly, or why bother getting some thing nippy in the first place ?? So diesel or petrol, push any car hard you are going to get low 20's fuel economy.
One of the most 'economical' sports cars out there is actually the Lotus Elise.
If you have to get a diesel then I would go for the BMW 3 series, at least it has rwd. The 1 series is a joke though, its tiny for the £'s you pay, might as well get a 3 series.
schrickvr6, you'd recommend a remap then? I've been thinking about getting my honda done for a while, the claimed results are quite impressive, 20 extra bhp up to 172 and 73 extra Nm up to a massive 433Nm. That's almost as much as an F430!!!
Is it a noticable economy increase? Or do you end up swallowing that up with the extra tyre wear/ragging it?
thanks.
[i]So diesel or petrol, push any car hard you are going to get low 20's fuel economy.[/i]
Sorry to say this but only way my Golf gets low 20s is driving around in first gear.
I'd agree, our Audi and Honda couldn't get the mileage that low unless I ragged them both constantly, towing a lorry. To be honest, there's not a huge amount of difference no matter how I drive them, I think the Audi can be encouraged into the high 30's if I really scream it but the Honda never seems to change.
Audi TiT?
Mastiles...when did you last put a bike in the back of your TT??? Or a car for that matter.....lol
Good point... It was for a work photoshoot actually - so it's been in twice but not ridden either time LOL! Bloody babies ehh?
Schrickvr6, Isn't the new TT a completely different car to the golf? The MkI TT was a Golf in a pretty dress, but I thought the new one was it's own car & not a rolling hatchback chassis with different body work. That'll explain why it handles better. Could be wrong, mind.
The TT has a steel back-end and an aluminium front end bonded to it, in order to get weight distribution more 50/50. The Golf doesn't. It is a very different car I believe.
hmm. not many sportscars mentioned above. and a tt comparable to an elise?
I said that the TT is closer to the Elise in handling than the Golf is to the TT. That was the comparison. I wouldn't be stupid enough to claim that the TT handles as well as the Elise, but having driven both (and an Exige which wouldn't fall off if upsidedown), I am confident enough to say that the TT is a wonderfully handling car.
I've got one of these arriving in September 😆 😆
[img] http://www.sciroccocentral.co.uk/forum/download/file.php?id=417&t=1 [/img]
Mmmmmm nice.
schrickvr6, presumably that's not on the original turbo & it's not just a straight forward stage 1 map? I'm guessing that the ASZ engine?
Assuming it's got the same turbo as that in the Ibiza, then most places recommend increasing the bhp to no more than 200bhp max before you need to think about a new turbo.
Also the clutch is only rated to 300lbft in the Ibiza and the intercooler is mounted at the side which gets quite bad heat soak when you start mapping it aggressively. Most people who increase the power more than 180bhp or so, fit either the Cupra bumper (improved airflow) and front mounted intercooler or fit an aftermarket intercooler (Forge or something similar).
Might have different ancillaries in Audi's or VWs though? Not sure why though.
It's a BLT so newer than the ASZ, basically the same thing though, the standard KKK turbo is good for about 170bhp, the Garrett VNT-17 a bit more.
Pretty much what you said, Forge FMIC, 3" turbo back exhaust, Allard hybrid turbo, EGR removed, a few small breathing mods and a custom map(2 bar). Originally the torque was held back to protect the clutch but have since gone back for more....Now also got h2o/meth injection which works nicely - max boost and torque at 2300-2400rpm.
Mine's a Skoda but same as all the other VW/Audi/Seat.
LMK if you want a print out, it's no rocketship but it embarrasses some quick motors and is ultra reliable.
As for economy it's the torque that does it, you can just surf on the top of the torque wave so to speak, even giving it some I still get above 30mpg, my overall average is high 40s.
Allards went tits up last year so you'd have to go elsewhere for a turbo.
I realise that it's not the STW way, but I can actually tell you about the TT TDi [i]from real experience[/i] 😉
We had one for 6 months as a company car. Previously we'd had a Golf R32. The TT surprised me with its power delivery, which wasn't too far removed from the R32's in the bit of the rev range that you use 90% of the time. Clearly the R32 would keep on going for another few thousand rpm, but apart from doing this on purpose to giggle at the noise it made I'm not sure this is something that I did often in the real world to mean that I missed it. On the Fifth Gear review of the TT Jason Plato criticised the lack of a diesel 'surge', but for me Audi got this right - it was a far better delivery than some of the peaky/dollopy diesels around (in fact the previous 170bhp Audi 2.0 TDi I'd driven - an 'old' model A4 - was horrific to drive). Mid-range pull was still great - overtaking was always a suitably swift experience.
Handling was OK; the steering is a bit odd and had a tendency to 'flop' into corners at particular speed/angle combinations (roundabouts were particularly notable for this). I'd say handling is pretty similar to drive as the current V6 TT, but haven't driven the current 2.0T petrol so can't comment on whether the 2WD version really is sharper (it is widely reported that it is).
Fuel consumption was OK. Definitely better than the R32! 40-50mpg was realistic across a mix of driving. On a long motorway haul you could get it over 50mpg.
The TT coupe is fairly practical. Easy to get a bike + loads of gear in the back (I took ours to SSUK09 with bike, tents, food etc in it). For family duties it's more compromised. Although there are seats they are far from ideal. Only small children will fit and it's very enclosed - the seats are low, the waistline high and the windows small. Neither of our children was keen on travelling in it.
Was it a sports car? Probably it was more of a GT than a sportscar, but it wasn't bad. Depending on what exactly a 'sportscar' is to you it may well fit the bill. If I was spending my own money I'd want to drive the 2.0T petrol and diesel versions back-to-back to see how they compared, and would need to do some sums to see if the diesel really costed in.
Interesting comments re the diesel TT - it sounds like it struggles with exactly the same problem as the V6 - just too heavy a block for the car when you want to play. Of course it wouldn't be a problem 99% of the time under normal conditions.
But then I have the 2.0l turbo petrol so I don't have that problem 🙂
holy nut sack. I couldn't justify splashing all that cash, but fair play to you.
I currently get 58-60mpg out of my Ibiza. It's coming up to 100k miles & I keep thinking about a re-map then going off it. Then a few months later, thinking about it again.
Just seems there are lots of people on the SeatCupra site who are chuffed to bits with there re-map and make a big song & dance about the fact that the clutch is fine. Then 3 months later they are back on moaning about the clutch slipping & where can they get a cheap uprated one from. Most common answer is ~£750 but can't remember if that is fitted or not.
Interesting comments re the diesel TT - it sounds like it struggles with exactly the same problem as the V6 - just too heavy a block for the car when you want to play.
Yes, I think the heavier engine and addition of 4WD probably takes the edge off the handling balance that they achieved with the 2WD 2.0T. Without driving back-to-back it's difficult to say whether the difference is enough to be a deciding factor - and will vary for each individual.
Supposedly the numb/artificial steering is a 'feature' across the TT range - a result of it being electrically assisted.
A sports car to me is about nice handling and a reasonable amount of pace. Kind of like batting along nice singletrack on your mtb rather than getting kitted out for monster DH.
and
I like being able to go in any gear at low revs.
... and there's your basic contradiction..
Sweet handling, well balanced, good pace - the flowing singletrack analogy, is all about light weight and balance - as much the balance of engine revs, speed and chassis handling, as the physical weight balance.
To me, the "in any gear at low revs" is the monster DH bike equivalent - go over, not around...
Both the weight of the diesel engine and the inbalance of revs / torque / chassis grip etc conspire against a good diesel sports car (at least at comparable cost in production cars)
Many years ago (and both chassis, petrol and diesel engine technology has come a long way..), several colleagues had the then new and sporty 306 diesel hatch. Marketed as a diesel warm / hot hatch, these colleagues were convinved it was a far quicker car than my similarly powered, but older and far lighter 309 GTi. I drove both regularly and although the power of the 306 diesel was ok, I had some seriously scary moments in the twisties where the overweight front end just wanted to oversteer the car straight through the nearest hedge.
Good cornering = low weight
Diesel = higher weight than the petrol equivalent
By all means, diesel can give you a very good fast economical cruiser, with plenty of punch for overtaking - but I get the feeling that the sort of sportiness that you are after is best found in a light petrol engined hatch / coupe / sports car
A sports car to me is about nice handling and a reasonable amount of pace. Kind of like batting along nice singletrack on your mtb rather than getting kitted out for monster DH.
then TBH your not after a 'sports car' but a roadster. HTH 🙂
the overweight front end just wanted to oversteer the car
Surely you meant understeer? IE - it wanted to go straight on rather than around the corner. Oversteering would mean the back end becoming the front end...
Snaps - No way I didn't know that, the Turbo Dynamics is a better turbo anyway, more potential than the VT2.
Mine was all done on a budget, turbo £350, FMIC £375, exhaust done by a friend £200, custom map £340.
£750 that will be for the Helix clutch, which I don't really rate, had one on my VR6 and it only lasted about 5k miles, it's a motorsport clutch and not designed to last forever. I'll probably go for a SPEC clutch and single mass flywheel when mine eventually dies, either that or good old Sachs.
Surely you meant understeer?
err, thanks - that's exactly what I meant...
... all these years later, and I'm still [i]so[/i] angry at that diesel car's poor handling that I can't even express myself properly!!
🙂
Sorry for being a pedant about it, but three years with a (dis)Astra 1.7 SRi taught me exactly whatundersteer is - how many cars can actually understeer on bone-dry roads with extra grip surfaces when being given what was probably no more than 1o% than 'eager' turning in? Nearly ended up in the side of a car on that one, with the car I was 'following' happily flying off into the distance.
:-O
Sod all sports cars mentioned above. A hot hatch or a fast taxi isnt a sports car.
A few comments about the above comments. Modern Ds are not as heavy as they once were, meaning weight balance is less of an issue. An all-up small sporty D will come in around 110kg (2 litre turbo D) whereas many of your performance petrols come in at around 100kg for a 2ltr turbo.
The trident iceni? 3.9 to 60, 70mpg at 70mph, top speed of 200+, RWD mid-engined....
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Looking at the specs, the diesel TT (quattro) is only 10kg heavier than the 2L petrol Quattro.
They are both ~100 kg heavier than the 2wd 2L variants, which suggests that the difference in weight/handling has more to do with the quattro drive system than the engine.
Might be getting a little off the original thread now though!
[url=
on the Iceni[/url]
8spd Auto
6.6 V8
1200 kg.
schrickvr6 - I bought my Ibiza with a VT2 on it but it expired after 5k miles so Allards replaced it (not sure what with as they didn't have any VT2s left) & its now running 220-240ish depending on map, Forge FMIC, TT Quattro brake conversion & Sachs clutch - been fine for 25k miles now, got over 60mpg coming back from Afan the other week but I can get it down in the high 20s if I rag it a lot. Tyres aren't to bad - getting about 8k miles out of the front Toyo's.
Diesel rocks.
petrol drinkers are luddites.
whats not to like about a modern diesel?
Its all about the torque.
the only downside i know of is the weight of them, but thats dropping anyway.
they no longer have to be cast iron i dont think?
my poor motos powerpack is cast iron and has to have 3 additional pumps, so is quite porky at the front, but its a mini estate, not a sports car.
HDiTD would be my preference. they feel very different to a TDi.
personal preference though
that trident thing ROCKS!
its gooorgeous
whats not to like about a modern diesel?
Its all about the torque.
Why is it all about torque?
Why is it all about torque?
In gear acceleration - look at the 30-50 & 40-70mph times for diesels - regularly seconds quicker than petrols!
So is that what it is all about? It isn't about overall handling ability due to a lower front-end weight, it isn't about a flexible engine that you can bung into 2nd at 60 going into a corner to engine brake and be ready to accelerate through? It isn't about being able to accelerate from 30 to 80 in one gear? It isn't about 0-60 times?
It is simply about being able to accelerate a little quicker than some petrol engines at certain points?
In that case, then yes, diesels are better.
Apart from making your hands stink and leaving greasy residue on the soles of your shoes ready to slip off the brake as you barrel into a corner...
😉
[b]whats not to like about a modern diesel?[/b]
The noise.
The muck they chuck out.
The noise.
The lack of outright go.
The noise.
The evangelistic owners.
The noise.
The sluggish response.
The noise.
They have a use. In vans, tractors, trucks and taxis. But NOT in sports cars, or any car of an even remotely "sporty" nature.
[b]HDiTD would be my preference. they feel very different to a TDi.[/b]
Be careful there: you're getting engine types mixed up with manufacturer name. The TDis to which you refer are generally the VAG cars, which use the PD (unit injector) system. However, they also use the TDi moniker for their 3.0 V6 TDi, which is a common rail engine like the HDis/TDCis etc. IIRC Vauxhall also call their cars (C)DTis, when they're also CR engines.
No, it's okay Jimbo - they are briefly quick at 30-50mph.
