[Closed] I suppose it'll be the atheists next, then...

Surely even the most avid atheist must admit there's something more to life than physical sensory environment we inhabit?

Not this one!

Thanks for your response to the dating thing.

Mark was probably written first in the 60s, then Mattew and Luke, with John being written in stages up to about 90ish. A Christian tradition dating right back has it that John was very old, in his 90s when he died. It's very possible that there we subsequent redactions

When I teach pupils how to approach a historical source I teach them to look at when it was written, who wrote it and what it tells us but perhaps most important of all they need to ask why it was produced.

As evidence of the life and times of Jesus the gospels rather fall down on that point.

kja78 - Member

Surely even the most avid atheist must admit there's something more to life than physical sensory environment we inhabit?

Nope. Though I'm not an "avid" atheist, it's a weird thing to be avid about.

NW - Clearly avid enough to want to post on a thread on religion on the off-topic section Mountain Bike forum!

Spin - any document from that long ago surely has questions over what the motivation for writing it was?

any document from that long ago surely has questions over what the motivation for writing it was?

Yes but there's a difference between questions over the motivations and definitely produced to support a certain view point.

kja78 - Member

NW - Clearly avid enough to want to post on a thread on religion on the off-topic section Mountain Bike forum!

Look at my post history, I really don't have to be very avid to post things 😆 But besides, you don't have to be an "avid atheist" to want to correct people's misconceptions on a subject.

I have a question Kja78, if you don't mind.
Salman Rushdie once said,
"Dr. Aadam Aziz, the patriarch in my novel Midnight’s Children, loses his faith and is left with “a hole inside him, a vacancy in a vital inner chamber.” I, too, possess the same God-shaped hole. Unable to accept the unarguable absolutes of religion, I have tried to fill up the hole with literature."
When you say, "Surely even the most avid atheist must admit there's something more to life than physical sensory environment we inhabit?" are you suggesting they too may have this god shaped hole and not having a relationship with a god means their lives are not being fulfilled or they have filled the hole with something else?

I hope that makes sense, I'm writing on a very small screen.

Cheers kja78 we really must keep you you bring a whole new and very sincere level to the debate. Josephus is an interesting source. Jesus as in christ I understand only features in one of his histories and even then may not be that Jesus, he mentions a numberof different people with that name.
The king of the Jews motive is again well open to debate in the ancient world everyone and his dog claimed to be king and the Romans had thousands of kings of one sort or another as clients or subjects. Jesus is recorded as preaching peace, rendering unto Caesar and rescuing Caesar's tax collectors not exactly things the occupying Romans would object to. Pilate appears not to have given two figs for Jewish opinion or the temple and was ultimately given the boot essentially for being too insensitive to local opinion including totally trashing the temples sanctity.

My absence of belief in God has different foundations and I personally favour the idea of Jesus as a historical figure but I find it very hard to locate a historical Jesus outside of the Gospels, or to fit the christian narrative with my limited understanding of the Romans.

Kja78 in response to any more questions are you near Leeds and do you fancy a pint and an incoherent debate some time?

There are times when I'm hillwalking and I get to the top of a particularly beautiful mountain and then I know God exists.

No, there's not a shred of logic nor rationality to that statement, but that doesn't stop it being 100% true as far as I'm concerned.

And equally it doesn't stop me believing in evolution or that the Earth is billions of years old.

[i]Mr. W - No spiritual element at all to being a human?[/i] What do you MEAN by "spiritual"?

[i]No ghosts?[/i] Nope.

[i]No unexplicable shivers down the spine?[/i] Nope. Perfectly explicable.

[i]No deeper connection with the universe when out on a bike ride?[/i] What do you MEAN by "deeper"?

[i]No unexplained coincedences?[/i] Nope. They are coincidences. That's the explanation.

[i]Surely even the most avid atheist must admit there's something more to life than physical sensory environment we inhabit?[/i] What's your evidence?

Although- none of this is strictly about Atheism, of course, which is simply the opinion that there is no "god"... Even though I feel really happy on the tops of mountains too...

Just what I've suspected for some time, Woppit has absolutely no soul. Everything, to him, is mundane and ordinary.
How very, very sad.
And I'm not a follower of any 'faith', either, I just get an overwhelming sense of peace, and I must say, insignificance, when confronted with the sheer beauty of what the universe has within it. I consider that to be a 'deeper' connection with the universe, and our place within it, I just don't give it a name, or, if forced to, pantheistic humanist for the sake of argument.
A cathedral can leave me breathless with wonder, and appreciate of the skill of the artisans who built it, I don't need to give praise to some ethereal 'being' for its being built.
Oh, and kja78, your posts are hugely enjoyable to read, thank you.

Roper & Mr. W - Although I can see where they are coming from, I don't really like the arguement from some Christians and people of faith that everyone has a 'God-shaped hole' and their life will be unfulfilled unless they find God. What I see though as I minister to a broad variety of people with all sorts of issues is a hunger for more meaning to life, an explanation of evil and suffering, and a desire to be loved. I believe that the God I believe in offers that to us all. So I suppose in a way I feel we all 'need' God, but don't have a satisfactory way of explaining that.

My question about Athiests and spirituality was worded poorly, it came across as rhetorical, whereas it was genuine curiosity. I came to faith at the age of 20, I'm 35 now. Looking back at my teenage years I suppose I did have a spiritual need that went unfulfilled, I've always thought that was a fairly common part of the human experience.

crankboy - there's nothing I like more than a pint and an incoherent debate, unfortunelty I am nowhere near Leeds I'm afraid. I nearly got a church not far from there, however I was a bit to liberal for those backwards Northern Christians. If you're ever down in Dorset give me a shout.

In regards to the Christian narrative of Jesus & Rome, I suppose it depends how you start with Jesus. What I mean is you can find the subversive rebel or the prince of peace if that's way you're looking for. Turn the other cheek - humiliates the person doing the slapping, walk the extra mile - it was illegal for Roman soldiers to force civilians to do too much work. Give to Caesar what is Caesar's - He's just said money and possessions are nothing and not important.

'Do not think that I have come to bring peace, I have come to bring a sword' 'I told you before not to take anything with you, now I tell you sell your cloak and buy a sword.' etc etc.

I suppose the ultimate Christian explanation for Jesus' death was that it was part of the plan for salvation, it doesn't really matter why the Romans executed him, God had to die to destroy the power of evil. That's a whole other debate, I suppose, but for me it has a lot more to do with what the Christian church is meant to be, and what it's meant to be doing and saying, rather than we being 'saved' from some untangible source of wrath because of our ignorance.

Kennyp - I too believe in evolution and that the world is billions of years old. Not that believe is the right word here!

Just what I've suspected for some time, Woppit has absolutely no soul. Everything, to him, is mundane and ordinary.
How very, very sad.

How patronising. And ignorant. What makes you think I find things mundane? I already said I feel happy on mountain tops. I think you are a stupid person who reads into what he sees, what he expects to find, and edits out things that would disprove his prejudice. Go and stuff yourself.

On the subject of coincidences - ooh, look what I found in a random search:

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/derren-brown-the-specials/4od

I daresay Derren, being both an atheist and gay, won't be taking any holidays in Nigeria anytime soon. Or ****stan, Afghanistan, Russia. Or Ohio. Whitechapel...

PS: Having a sense of wonder (which I do, given the right circumstance, just like anybody else) and so on still does not offer any evidence of a "god".

I know it keeps getting said, but a sense of wonder is a sense of wonder. It baffles me why religious people need to describe it as anything else.

"Spiritual", for instance...

I feel small, so there's a god. I feel wonderful, so there's a god. I don't know how the universe was started, so there's a god.

Er, nope. I WONDER how this works - let's LOOK AT IT AND FIND OUT, shall we? Back to Derren, then...

You know how you can build a house on sand, or build a house on rock...

...I'd build my house on Mr Woppit because he is 100% solid on this subject, regardless of all the 'Oooh Mr Woppit, please be nice to the religious' nonsense.

...and after 6 pages, aren't you all engaged in the 'what tyres should angels use for riding on the head of pin?' debate by now?

PS: Having a sense of wonder (which I do, given the right circumstance, just like anybody else) and so on still does not offer any evidence of a "god".

It both does and doesn't. Depends on the person, their beliefs and how they see the world. Quite possibly both viewpoints are correct.

Mr W. - I will leave you this evening with my 'Testimony' and then I'm signing off til tomorrow. I had no interest in Christianity and very little exposure to it as a child. I spent a summer season as a 19 year old working it the kitchens of an Outdoor Pursuits centre where it seemed that everyone else was a Christian, they banged on and on at me about it. As you have probably gathered I am pretty articulate, intelligent and assertive, I was proud that I was able to reduce them and their arguements to nothing, even on one occasion making one of them cry.

I fancied a girl I worked with, she was a bonkers raving charismatic Christian and invited me to see a Christian comedian one evening. Not only was he totally rubbish, but I learnt that she was going out with a school friend of mine. I was very rude and offensive to people who had been nothing but kind to me over the last few months.

The next morning, Sunday, I decided to go to their church to apologise. As I shaved I looked in the mirror and wondered why I was going to the church, after all I'd see them all on Monday at work. I said 'God, if you're there, I'm ready to believe, just let me know.'

I arrived at church, none of them were there! The minister knew me and brought me in and sat me down. The service began, they all stood to sing. I stood, my left leg began to shake uncontrollably, then my right then my torso and before I knew it I was completly immersed in what I can only describe as 'Truth'. I stood there crying, knowing that my life would never be the same again.

There's a lot more that's happened since then, but for me it's not about a sense of wonder at creation, it's not 'I feel small' or 'How did the universe begin.' It's back to that moment, 15 years ago where God spoke to me, and I believe has been with me ever since. When I read the Gospels and Acts, those men and women come alive for me, and I love being a part of what they were a part of. Anyway, I'm off to wait for the men in white coats. Sleep tight, God bless.

regardless of all the 'Oooh Mr Woppit, please be nice to the religious' nonsense.

I suspect most of "the religious" would actually say that Mr Woppit is quite entitled to hold those opinions and is free to express them. Would be a dull world without a bit of lively debate.

Nope. Having a sense of wonder is evidence that in that particular circumstance, you can have a sense of wonder. Which is why it is called "a sense of wonder". It's quite nice..

You're just trying to play both ends off against the middle.

Watch the video.

Did you get the girl?

The service began, they all stood to sing. I stood, my left leg began to shake uncontrollably, then my right then my torso and before I knew it I was completly immersed in what I can only describe as 'Truth'. I stood there crying, knowing that my life would never be the same again.

You were manipulated into having an emotional reaction.

Watch the video.

Here, in case it gets lost in the thread:> http://www.channel4.com/programmes/derren-brown-the-specials/4od <

What makes you think I find things mundane? I already said I feel happy on mountain tops.

Reminds me of a quote from the late, great DNA: "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

I daresay Derren, being both an atheist and gay,

Point of note, Derren Brown was raised as a devout Christian. He's not just an "atheist", he's consciously rejected his faith.

kja78 > I'm not ignoring you, I'm just trying to have an evening. I'm still reading with interest.

You were manipulated into having an emotional reaction.

kja78 - Member
Surely even the most avid atheist must admit there's something more to life than physical sensory environment we inhabit?

Where do you draw the line?

To me, Islam, Christianity, voodoo, astrology etc etc are all the same. All require a conscious deviation from the null argument.

I give no more credence to the word of god in a holy book to the word of Russell grant in the back of the express.

You can see why having a theist doctrine in our political system doesn't fill me with confidence if you accept this as my position. (And a lot of others)

It would be interesting to know how society will change in an ever-more secular world.
I imagine the general pointlessness of existence may become a tricky one.

Anyway, back to the sixth form studies room 😉

Surely there is far more point to existence in a secular world than a religious one. The striving for knowledge and understanding vs being part of supreme beings wind up toy bound by an opaque and self contradictory set of rules set out thousands of years ago.

The striving for knowledge and understanding

Yes, but to what end? Can't see the point really.

Josephus is an interesting source. Jesus as in christ I understand only features in one of his histories and even then may not be that Jesus, he mentions a numberof different people with that name.

IIRC, Josephus was documenting the beliefs of Christians, so he wrote about Jesus; he wrote about Jesus because Christians believed in him, not because he thought he existed. (Although, I suspect he, or a range of people, did.)

Feefoo: similarly I don't see the point of existence based on the god(s) argument. What is it please?

Yes, but to what end? Can't see the point really.

Really? Modern medicine might be one example....

The service began, they all stood to sing. I stood, my left leg began to shake uncontrollably, then my right then my torso and before I knew it I was completly immersed in what I can only describe as 'Truth'. I stood there crying, knowing that my life would never be the same again.

I was in a large marquee tent when a whole lot of people experienced this - it was about the time of the [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Blessing ]Toronto blessings[/url] - so at a similar time to your experience. I've also watched the Derren Brown programme linked above; I believe in Derren Brown.

Feefoo: similarly I don't see the point of existence based on the god(s) argument. What is it please?

Dunno, don't believe in him/them.

Really? Modern medicine might be one example....

I understand man has and will make advances in all fields, that doesn't give it any point though.
No point to anything in this seemingly chance universe imho.

Feefoo: similarly I don't see the point of existence based on the god(s) argument. What is it please?

I suppose the point within the doctrine is that you'll get everlasting salvation in the kingdom of heaven; whatever that's meant to mean.

No point to anything

Religion revels in providing answers to difficult questions, questions that we're unable to answer with much certainty. Some people simply can't accept that it's ok that we don't know something, and to those people "yes but, god" puts their mind at rest.

Think about it. Why are we here, what happens when we die, what was here before the universe; all the difficult questions are the ones where religion has stepped in and gone "god did it, and you can't prove otherwise."

Completely agree, Cougar (conciliatory me!). 😉

It just seems that our brains are wired for the cause and effect thing. It's hard to stop asking "why?" and to just accept "because it is".

It is for me anyway.

I would suggest there is only one "point" to life - to reproduce and pass on genetic material. There is no accident to our existence. it's not a case of "ooh aren't we lucky to have this planet that suits us so well and allows us to exist". We suit it (for the time being). I would suggest that given the conditions in existence over the millennia, life was an inevitability not a coincidence.

We only try to imply some higher "reason" for life because we have the mental capacity to.

I've failed at life, then. Might as well go and find a bridge, hey.

You were manipulated into having an emotional reaction.

Sorry to disappoint you but I'm a pretty smart, intelligent person and if I was being manipulated I could spot it a mile away.

I've failed at life, then. Might as well go and find a bridge, hey.

Sorry to disappoint you but I'm a pretty smart, intelligent person and if I was being manipulated I could spot it a mile away.

I'm sure I've seen Derren Brown saying that being prone to 'manipulation'* is nothing to do with intelligence.

*I don't think all churches deliberately manipulate people, but the acts commonly carried out in churches (standing/sitting/speaking in unison, repetition, music, architecture, etc) are all very good at causing certain states/experiences.

I would suggest there is only one "point" to life - to reproduce and pass on genetic material.

I've failed at life, then.

It's not necessarily to pass on your own particular set of genes, but those close to you; i.e. those found in humans.

It's a driver for altruism - leaping onto a grenade to save the lives of those near you is clearly bad for your own genes, but good for the people standing next to you.

*I don't think all churches deliberately manipulate people, but the acts commonly carried out in churches (standing/sitting/speaking in unison, repetition, music, architecture, etc) are all very good at causing certain states/experiences.

A fair point, however the original "experience" wasn't actually in a church, and didn't even involve other people so no manipulation was possible.

A fair point, however the original "experience" wasn't actually in a church, and didn't even involve other people so no manipulation was possible.

I'd not rule out self manipulation.

*insert joke about not being allowed in Catholicism*

I wouldn't want to second guess the cause of your experience, and I don't even know what it was, but I'd hazard there's a simpler explanation than God.