Maybe you just don’t realise the advantage it actually infers. With so many jobs now going through agency’s and “sites” one of the first ways of dividing applications before a human even reads them is just to bin any where the applicant doesn’t have a degree.
That's just lazy hirers. Writing a person spec is a pain in the arse and in many cases the hirer doesn't have a clear scope for what's expected of the hirer due to abstract ways in which people are promoted to management. Rare(but not impossible) they have the soft skills and the technical ability to do both. So don't always know what the job they are hiring for is....I've seen people who are leaving being asked to write the person spec for the replacement. It's grim
I've just done an employment run and it was degree in X or 8years experiance in relevent field(engineering or maths/comp science) and I interviewed a number of non degree holders due to nature(operational) of the role experiance was king.
But agree with above if I was doing it again I'd go apprenticeship route...but **** me those are not 10 a penny these days - and have a high throughput we have 3 apprenticeship positions(a relatively new thing for the company) and rarely have the apprentices make it to the end before moving to higher paid jobs (and we don't pay the min) ..... We have one who's completed it. Gone on to get a job with us and we are paying for his degree now.
So if you stick it out they can be advantageous.
That’s just lazy hirers
Yes it is, but they often don't have much choice. People are (or were) receiving hundreds of applicants for jobs, in my industry anyway, and it'd take far too long to properly assess each of them.
Full disclosure: I got a third, which as any fule recruiter kno is as bad as basically no degree at all.
I got a Desmond. Not ashamed.
Yes it is, but they often don’t have much choice. People are (or were) receiving hundreds of applicants for jobs, in my industry anyway, and it’d take far too long to properly assess each of them
Yeah we do use a recruitment agent to get round that and in fairness they have been very good. I find the degree or X years sets the expectation of relevent experiance stops the new grads applying thinking having a degree means no experiance needed - that or because of it they don't get through the screening. (We also operate a graduate scheme to get the new grads into the system I'm not totally blinkered to the fact we have to bring them in and upskill them )
I was in the first batch of student loans 30 odd years ago. If I recall it was about £800 a year and I paid it back at £14 a month 😆
Fast forward 30 yrs and I went back into FT education (turns out it was not required due to another career shift), and I think I’ve correctly worked out with thresholds I’ve got to pay back over £100 a month until I’m well into care home territory. And that is with a modest amount - no where near £40k.
I got a third as well.
Doesn't seem to have done me any harm.
Most of the guys who have worked for me over the last 15 years have masters degrees and PhDs. And a lot more student debt than I had. (Many of them graduated before me, and technically have more experience.)
As for lazy hirers, my place decided to sack off the recruitment company they used for external hires in technical roles after a number of extremely well qualified and experienced candidates that were known to the hiring manager didn't even get through the first sort.
So now, part of the hiring process is an extra allocated budget and hours for the hiring manager and team to do the process themselves. (Anonymised CVs though)
Much cheaper and we get much better candidates too.
I got a Desmond. Not ashamed
Me too, a drinkers degree
Hasn’t held me back at all - I’m fact I don’t think I’ve ever been asked, and I work in a field directly related to my degree
I too got a Desmond/drinkers/sportsman's
If I hadn't been a borderline alcoholic mountain biker who almost failed his second year due to a bout of flu I'd have never have done the masters I did which led to the career I had now.
The EU EPSRC fully funded my masters fees as well, and gave me a spectacular cost of living grant that I spent a chunk of on a really nice bike.
Paid off my loan in 2018ish, spent the saving on new doors and windows on interest free credit. That's almost paid of now, so time to do the same for the rest of the house.
If I was going to uni now, I probably wouldn't, as the fees are insane.
Do we need 50% of children to to to univ?
In the 1960s when it was 10% we could design and build our own nuclear power, supersonic airliners etc.
But if we do and it benefits those who go then the cost being paid by the 50% who benefit seems fair enough.
The repayment conditions are about to get worse: lowering the income threshold, extending the time until it’s written off, and increasing the interest rate.
Worth unpicking into two separate sets of changes:
Plan 2 borrowers (entrants from 2012 up to next year) will see interest rates go up massively in September due to them tracking RPI, and the repayment threshold will be frozen at its current level of £27,295 up to April 2025. But the loan term will remain at 30 years until any unpaid debt is written off.
New borrowers from September 2023 onwards will have a repayment threshold of £25k, a loan term of 40 years, but their interest rates will be lower than Plan 2 ones:a steady RPI+0% instead of, for Plan 2, RPI+3% in-study and RPI+0-3% variable after study depending on salary.
David Willets really did invent the most complicated loan product in existence.
From memory, average debt is £45k and currently average total repaid is £48k. That’s about to increase to £100k.
Off on debt repaid (unless that £48k figure is maybe in cash rather than real terms? I know Money Week published some absolute garbage analysis of all this). The average forecast lifetime repayments across the total cohort of September 2023 entrants is £25,300 in current prices - see Table 22:
Whole Uni system is ****ing stupid.
Government should just give people their house deposit instead but make them build their own house after 1 yr of free training. People could then have a trade as a career after rather than a barista studies degree.
Easy to laugh but then think how many epic cottages in the country were built by peasants 100’s of years ago. Now compare that to what the talented so called architects are knocking together for affordable housing.
I too got a Desmond/drinkers/sportsman’s
If I hadn’t been a borderline alcoholic mountain biker who almost failed his second year due to a bout of flu I’d have never have done the masters I did which led to the career I had now.
Are you me?? (although it was Glandular Fever in my case). Desmond here, failing upward ever since 🙄
Celebrating paying off my loan this month, wife already planning a new extension 😖
Did you realise when you went to uni that you would have a job that pays below the threshold for repayment for the term of the loan?
If you did that is a very smart move.
Easy to laugh but then think how many epic cottages in the country were built by peasants 100’s of years ago.
Think of how many of them fell down 100s of years ago or were pulled down because they were shit. Oh wait, you don't know, cos they're not here any more, it's called selection bias. Don't get me started on this.. most of the stuff you see now probably wasn't the 'affordable' end of the market...
Also, they didn't just throw their own houses up, they got people who knew what they were doing to build them, so basically architects of old. Architects have been around since ancient Egypt.
I was in the first year to pay fees and get no grant, 1998. I think I borrowed £18k in total. I finally paid it back in 2018, about a decade after my friends. I have a job in academia but I wasted my BSc, and thus my money. My dad gave me the equivalent of the loan, and I worked, so I must have wasted a very get deal (getting wasted...). Oh, and I bought a paramotor.
Well, LittleMissMC - age 15, Year 9 - unexpectedly announced last night that Cern do degree apprenticeships for physics researchers and she's maybe going to look into that after A levels.
A student loan may be cheaper 🤣 Though she if she did it, she'd finally get one up on her big brother.
NPL have a good A level apprentice program if she was interested in quantum science or atomic clocks (and other things). Not exactly the same as CERN, but might be interesting for her?
People shouldn’t be put off by the fact you have to borrow money. It’s not like normal borrowing, so it’s not really bad.
many people will be and are MRsTJ would never have gone to university if it had been loan based
many people will be and are MRsTJ would never have gone to university if it had been loan based
I know. But it's a mistake, in my opinion, and it would be a shame not to go just to avoid the graduate tax. In fact, if they had simply called it that instead of 'student loan' it would be far less detrimental.
Mrs Grips deals with many people who are put off by that level of debt, but they have no idea how the repayment works and that it is nothing like other debts; and when it's explained they are relieved and much more positive about going to uni. Calling it a loan is also discriminatory against Muslims.
Don't get me wrong, I do not endorse the system and all education should be free as long as you want it, but it is not worth abandoning your education over.
NPL have a good A level apprentice program if she was interested in quantum science or atomic clocks (and other things). Not exactly the same as CERN, but might be interesting for her?
Thanks, we'll look into it.
Quite the opposite actually. Back in the late 80s/early 90s, about 15% of young people went to uni – now it’s 50%.
So?
I'm with the poster you were responding to - ladder pulled up.
Folk my age and above (late 50's) could also sign on during the summer 'holidays' once they'd hit 16, or work. It meant that we weren't dependent on our parents and gave us far more flexibility & freedom.
Nephew graduated in chemistry related degree then went home to the far east for holiday and got stuck there for 2 years. Now back in London searching for job. I think there are certain jobs that need a degree more than others ...
Calling it a loan is also discriminatory against Muslims.
Loan with no interest is fine but if the strict code of conduct is applied then I think the entire banking system might be haram too.
Folk my age and above (late 50’s) could also sign on during the summer ‘holidays’ once they’d hit 16, or work. It meant that we weren’t dependent on our parents and gave us far more flexibility & freedom.
This x100.
So much has changed for young people these days. Working at anything before 16 is almost impossible due to the regulations on when and how much under 16s can work (unless your family has a business where the rules are more relaxed...) Most places won't take on people this age due to all the restrictions (and those that will are often those who are willing to ignore the restrictions, plus other regulations like H&S etc).
Apprenticeships are great, but most of the ones advertised are not degree level. Those that are degree ones are very sought after and/or very career specific. Great if you want to be an engineer or police officer, less so if you don't know what your career path is yet. Also plenty of the so called training schemes that aren't actually apprenticeships are close to scams - they take you on, train you in some basic skills, and then hold you hostage for a year or two by threatening to reclaimt he inflated costs of the training if you leave. Also without parental support how are you suppoed to live on the apprentice minimum wage of £4.30?
That brings me to the (mistaken) view that the only worth of a degree is in earning lots of money. Plenty of careers are in my view valuable, but not high paying (I was fuming at the recent government advert that the ballerina needed to get a job in cyber, as if being an artist is not valuable). Degrees not only provide skills related to the subject, but many transferable ones too - writing, critical thinking, presentation etc. They also provide a space for young people to grow up and learn life skills likes how to budget etc.
The whole purpose of student loans was to get the costs of grants off the government books, and I suspect to reduce the numbers going to university, as better educated people tend to be more critical of government policy (and often not vote conservative - https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/the-education-effect/)
But it’s a mistake, in my opinion, and it would be a shame not to go just to avoid the graduate tax.
Working class woman first of her family to go to university with a huge familial aversion to debt because of living thru hard times. Its perfectly understandable and the loans system makes it much harder for folk in her position to go to university
That brings me to the (mistaken) view that the only worth of a degree is in earning lots of money. Plenty of careers are in my view valuable,
Mrs TJ spent her working life working for CABs and the like including training folk. I don't think she ever reached average income despite her law degree
The whole purpose of student loans was to get the costs of grants off the government books,
and replaced by non-paid loans (at a far greater value no doubt, until they change the payment 'terms'...)
I understand that people are put off, that's a huge problem, but:
Its perfectly understandable and the loans system makes it much harder for folk in her position to go to university
Honest question - why so? Under the current system you are protected from having to make repayments if you don't earn enough.
Degrees not only provide skills related to the subject, but many transferable ones too – writing, critical thinking, presentation etc. They also provide a space for young people to grow up and learn life skills likes how to budget etc.
Fully agree. We should have a system for doing this that doesn't necessarily involve a degree. University is amazing, why is it only open to those with good academic skills?
Was "loan" the reason your parents hid behind the sofa when there was a knock on the door, or was it the reason they got a shiny new german car every 3 years?
Your parents economic status is going to affect how you see any sort of borrowing.
Honest question – why so?
Because if you come from a background where money is tight and debt is never taken on those things never leave you. Unless you have been there its hard to understand. I accepted this about her but with my background couldn't understand it. No debt was a fundamental part of who she was. She was far from alone in this. I know of others. To her taking on debt was putting you in a position that she was afraid she could never recover from financially.
Everyone is a product of their upbringing and to her loans were a way into poverty for ever
also there is nothing to say the terms will not be changed in future
So much has changed for young people these days. Working at anything before 16 is almost impossible due to the regulations on when and how much under 16s can work (unless your family has a business where the rules are more relaxed…) Most places won’t take on people this age due to all the restrictions (and those that will are often those who are willing to ignore the restrictions, plus other regulations like H&S etc).
Yes and no - eldest had a week day paper round from 14-18, paid around £20 a week, at 15 he got paid for an hour a week to help set up and pack away at the music centre he played at, at 16 he got his first paying gig as a pit musician for a local theatre company, about £50 a night. He's coming to the end of his first year at uni and looking at summer school jobs at uni or coming home and getting a local factory/warehouse job which a couple of his mates did last summer.
Daughter is 15, she now does the music centre job her brother did, she did her first paid gymnastic coaching in the last school holidays, a couple of her friends have already got jobs in local cafes.
There certainly seems to be less retail or labouring work compared to 35 years ago when I was their age, but there are jobs out there.
I agree with TJ though, to some people the idea of "debt" is total anathema.
Everyone is a product of their upbringing and to her loans were a way into poverty for ever
Precisely why calling it a loan is a bad idea.
(Slightly back to the OP)
I just finished paying mine off as well - sent my folks a text with a callback to a postcard that used to sit on a corkboard in our kitchen (pic below) saying "I no longer fear the burly men with jumpleads knocking on the door". Needless to say I got a very confused response from my mum and had to remind her what the hell I was going on about...
That is dark.
Precisely why calling it a loan is a bad idea.
Thats what it is tho. Its a debt that will hang over you for decades.
Thats what it is tho. Its a debt that will hang over you for decades.
It's a graduate tax, really.
No it is not molgrips - stop calling it that
!) there is a set amount to pay back which is the amount you borrowed
2) once you have paid back that amount you no longer pay it
Both of those things make it a loan albeit a one with conditional repayments
Graduate tax would be a % on basic rate for all graduates
Its a debt that will hang over you for decades.
No it is not TJ – stop calling it that
1) there is a set percentage of your salary to pay each month which is completely unrelated to the amount you borrowed
2) if you earn less than a certain amount, you dint need to pay this tax at all.
Both of those things make it a tax albeit a one which certain high earners will avoid ( plus ca change)
Both of those things make it a loan albeit a one with conditional repayments
Ok, it's a loan that you never have to pay back if you can't afford it, and your repayments are on a sliding scale dependent on your income. These are massive differences between student loans in their current form and other kinds of unsecured loans.
The 'all credit is bad' line is silly, otherwise however would people buy houses? There's credit and there's credit. If you pay monthly for your mobile phone, you are using credit. Debt isn't bad - BAD debt is bad.
As you say, people are put off university by words like 'loan' and 'debt'. This is very a bad thing, in my view, because people who might benefit greatly from university don't end up going. Mrs Grips is talking to students all the time who aren't aware of the lenient repayment terms. They are afraid of debt, but then when the repayment terms are explained, they realise it can constitute a worthwhile investment for their goals in life.
So please, don't call it a loan. It can end up limiting people's lives.
It's not a tax. You opt into it, receive funding, are charged interest, and then make payments that stop if you've paid back what you received (plus the interest). The debts can be bought and sold. The interests rates change. You pay a private company, not the state. It's a loan with rules around repayments designed to protect those who still owe while they are on lower wages. It is a loan.
So please, don’t call it a loan. It can end up limiting people’s lives.
It is a loan - one with conditional re[payments and of course its intended to disuade poor peopkle from going to university
Call a spade a spade FFS. Otherwise you are letting the tories get away with it
So please, don’t call it a loan. It can end up limiting people’s lives.
So does getting into masses of debt (because it is a debt) for the vast swathes of degrees out there that are useless.
And by normalising the useless degree it makes an easy target for lazy employers to cut down their huge application pools.
Lots of people are life limited by the stigma surrounding getting a trade and end up getting a poor degree from a crap uni because it's socially acceptable to go to uni and do any degree without an end goal
But one things sure. It's a loan it's a debt and its terms are getting worse every iteration
It's not a loan anymore, it's a graduate tax plain and simple.
I graduated 4 years ago into a well paying engineering job and my student loan has actually increased despite paying around a hundred quid a month into it.
It's not designed to ever be paid back - just have to accept you'll pay it for 30 years then see it wiped. It's honestly unjust to call it a loan when the vast majority of university leavers will never pay it off.
and my student loan has actually increased despite paying around a hundred quid a month into it
so it is a loan then with interest applied. Its not a graduate tax in any form A graduate tax does not have an amount owed nor interest nor is it a payment to a private company
so it is a loan then with interest applied. Its not a graduate tax in any form
Yes but it gets wiped after a certain time UNLIKE ANY OTHER LOAN.
And by normalising the useless degree it makes an easy target for lazy employers to cut down their huge application pools.
That's a different argument.
