[Closed] I forgot how rubbish older cars can be..

andysredmini - Member

Worst was the thought of telling my sister. Knowing the car is old and tied but she never has any problems with it.

I have just been back up and it started fine and runs as if nothing ever happened.

Operator Error, then?! 😆

How old is this old car, mid 80's or something?

She'll probably just tell you that it does it all the time and all you've got to do is wiggle the fuel pump relay under the drivers side dash or something.

Not that I had to do that in my old Ibiza, nope, not at all

T-Reg whenever that was.

Edit: 1998 - 1999. Not as old as i expected from how it drove.

T-Reg ain't old-old. Thought you meant something from the early 80's!

I got in the old 1l polo and it took me back a few years to my first cars. No power steering, de-misting the inside of the windows with a chamois pad, wipers that couldn't cope with the mornings torrential rain and brakes that took an eternity to stop the car to name a few traits.

just sounds poorly maintained.

1998 - 1999

So not that old then 🙂

Talking of 'no power steering', I lost all the fluid from the power steering system on my honda accord tourer the other day, topped it up, started the engine and lost it all immediately, split hose probably. So I booked it into the garage which is two miles away and through 3 roundabout - my god that drive was hard work 🙂

old 1l polo

There's your problem. I suffer the pain of driving around in an old Megane estate (shoot me someone) which needs its fuel pump massaged almost daily in order to start. It makes me feel dirty and I miss my Volvo.

Agreed, my Dad's got a 2001 Passat, a top of the range V6 diesel SE with all the bells and whistles no less, but he lives abroad so it spends it's life in a garage with a flat battery and flatter tyres most of the time.

I dragged it out the other day for him, charged the battery and drove it to the MOT station, now really it's not an OLD car, they stopped making them about 10 years ago and unlike OPs Polo it has air-con and power steering but it drove horribly compared to mine, the steering is more suggestive than direct, it wallows like a boat and when I took it down an empty A road for a bit of an 'italian tuneup' for the sake of the emmissions test it felt pretty unstable at 70. It's not like I'm unfamilar with it either, between us we've owned it from new - Dad bought it new, had it for 3 years, then I had it for 5-6 and it's been used by him a couple of weeks a year ever since.

It's not a bad car at all, perfectly capable way to get about in 2016 but I was a bit shocked how much things have progressed in the last 10-15 years, if someone asked me before I would have guessed the current one drove pretty much the same way as my Dads did, just looked a bit newer.

My first car was a Peugeot 106. There was something wrong with the seat adjustment mechanism so sometimes you'd unleash all 59 wheezing french horses and the seat would slide right back and then lock. I'd be hanging onto the steering wheel but not able to reach the pedals!

P-Jay - Member

It's not a bad car at all, perfectly capable way to get about in 2016 but I was a bit shocked how much things have progressed in the last 10-15 years,

Sounds like there's something wrong there, if it's that bad.

Not long got rid of an 03 Ibiza & compared to my wife's 12 plate Ibiza (virtually the same model as the latest 16 plate versions) there's not a lot in it.
Her Ibiza handles a bit better, but mine did have 274k miles on it when I got rid so things had probably got a bit 'baggy', but I actually preferred the power delivery of the engine & the gearbox in my old Ibiza, plus it had more comfortable seats, a bigger boot and more storage options.
The main thing I like about the newer one is built in Bluetooth connectivity & a USB port to put memory stick full of music into.

I saw the bloke who bought my old car a few weeks ago. He's really pleased with it & has mapped it (from 130 to 170bhp) and stuck some 'yoof' wheels on it. I can't see it lasting much longer.

Sounds like there's something wrong there, if it's that bad.

agreed. my old passat wallowed round corners but on the motorway it was great.

I do try to mention this to my teenage children as I ferry them around in reliable, modern cars with creature comforts like climate control. The cold, damp mornings spent pumping the accelerator, spraying WD40 on the HT leads/distributor cap and pulling the choke out etc.

They look at me with what I can only describe as pity. Ho hum

just sounds poorly maintained.

Not poorly maintained at all. Just compared to modern cars.

That's not old.

I was running a 1961 Volvo as a daily driver int he mid noughties.

Prior to that in the early 90's I did 15-20,000 miles a year for a couple of years in a 1965 Triumph Herald convertible.

I have a brother like your sister.

I was trying to squeeze the last few miles out of an old FIAT before taking it to the scrappers later in the week. However it died on me on the way to work and I had to abandon it beside the road.

My brother said he wanted it and then proceeded to drive it for another few years reliably despite it smoking and making horrible noises all that time. He has absolutely no mechanical sympathy and uses only an imperial pipe wrench which also serves as a hammer.

The family reckon he could take a dying horse from the knackers and ride it around the country. 🙂

My car isn't "old" - it's an 09 Vectra with about 107,000 miles on it so a reasonable car.

However for my job I occasionally get to drive lovely new fleet/sponsor vehicles. Had a top end BMW 5 Series a few weeks ago and an Audi A7 S-Line (both with a head-up display).
The auto-gearbox on the Audi was a joy and while it would drive in a nice sedate manner in eco mode if you put it on dynamic and hit the gas (I had a closed road to play on), God it wouldn't half shift.

Then I had to get back in my car to drive home. 🙁

There was something wrong with the seat adjustment mechanism so sometimes you'd unleash all 59 wheezing french horses and the seat would slide right back and then lock. I'd be hanging onto the steering wheel but not able to reach the pedals!

Mate of mine had a MkII Escort with a similar problem, only it was the seat back latch (it was a 2-door with foldy-forward seats to get in the back). So every time he gave it beans, which given that he'd have been about 19 and in a MkII Escort was "every time he set off," there'd be a *snap* and you'd be looking at the ceiling with your head on the back seat.

Just wait until all these modern cars age!

They might be more refined, but they are also a lot more complicated. Won't be economically to keep them going in these days of dual mass flywheels, DPFs, turbos and so on. A lot more difficult to DIY as well. I've got a 1l Toyota and just to change the spark plugs takes 2 hours! Need to remove wipers, wiper motor, drain coolant, and then remove throttle body just to get to them.

Takes about 10 minutes on my 1999 Focus.

tbh you are comparing the worst era VW to anything. id have more confidence in my 87 landy than i would a VW of that era.

Volkswagon hit a real low point between 97 and early 2000s.

[i] you'd be looking at the ceiling with your head on the back seat. [/i]

*narrows eyes*

"Sorry luv it's always doing that! But while you're down there?"

WD40 is your friend.

Yes newer cars are much much better

HH - whats the service interval on your yaris plugs ?

whats the service interval on your 99 focus plugs

thats probably why they are less accessable.

im hedging on the the 99 focus being a 1.6 or 1.8 zetec with a 30k interval on the plugs . i bet toyota quote 100k on the plugs on the yaris.

A lot more difficult to DIY as well.

Mate once had an Astra van, the headlamp bulb went so he picked one up from Halfords. After a bit of headscratching he asked me for help. I couldn't fathom it either, so looked in the manual. "Dealer service only."

IIRC we hit the Internet for instructions and it was something like, "step 1, drain and remove the radiator..."

was this some foreign astra van ? the most difficult it gets for an astra van is the need to remove the wheel arch liner for the passengers side bulb on the more modern stuff . the older stuff the light unit just came out - if it hadnt already fallen out . Our Mk2 astra van (badged Bedford) actually set its self on fire due to the headlight wiring being incapible of the current required for the 120% Bulbs fitted.

andysredmini - Member
just sounds poorly maintained.
Not poorly maintained at all. Just compared to modern cars.

When I drove a car from the late 80s (around 2002-3 I owned it), the brakes were looked after and easily powerful enough to lock the wheels, and it only stopped running once in 3-4 years of owning it. That was due to particularly heavy rain submerging a bit of electronics due to leaves blocking up some drainage points under the bonnet.

If brakes are poor and it breaks down, it's not being looked after properly (admittedly it does get harder to look after cars as they get older, that's why people buy new ones).

he has a point on the brakes .

i had a set of brakes on the landy that passed an mot with no issues but i rebuilt them with new seals pistons , MC, slaves, lines , flexies, drums and shoes.

took them for the next mot - the chap said WTF have you done to those brakes - as he was using the decellorometer on the seat to test them. and just about stuck him self through the window. Dirty big 4pots upfront all working as they should and not partially siezed like most landies on the road.

I remember my brothers old mini.
enough power in it for only 2 things at a time.
so it was lights and wipers OR lights and radio OR radio and lights.
oh and the brakes were a joke

T-Reg whenever that was.

Edit: 1998 - 1999. Not as old as i expected from how it drove.

Pimpmistress Jazz had an R plate when we got together. On moving to the IoW we left it at the hoverport for me to use to get to work on the mainland. It lasted one week before catastrophically failing its MOT, essentially making it a write-off.

Have to admit, I wasn't sorry to see it go.

Takes about 10 minutes on my 1999 Focus.

Very easy to get to them on my 2000 Focus too. 😉

[url= https://c7.staticflickr.com/5/4101/4776904670_87073788cf_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://c7.staticflickr.com/5/4101/4776904670_87073788cf_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/8h7Tkm ]Bye bye Focus[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/pimpmasterjazz/ ]Neil Cain[/url], on Flickr

Are you really kidding yourself that old brakes are as good as new ones? Have you tried many new cars?
As I said the car is not poorly maintained. The brakes are perfectly adequate and will lock the wheels if pressed hard enough but that doesn't mean they are as good as modern brakes.

Not sure if you can claim older cars are 'rubbish', although I have fond memories of being in a knackered Renault 4 one freezing January, with no heating, and the moisture from our breath forming ice on the inside of the windows. 😥

Old cars might not be as comfortable or idiot-proof in operation as current motors, but try replacing a lightbulb, then discovering you have to take the engine out to access it, or having a problem with the electronics, which require towing to a garage with the required technology, and paying £800 to fix the tiniest intermittent fault which totally immobilises the vehicle. Or needing a replacement part, and discovering that the local breakers yard, with thousands of old cars stacked up, and millions of parts, doesn't actually have that particular bit you need, as entire models change every few weeks, and you need the specific bit which will have to be ordered new and will cost you £500. For a 2cm bit of moulded plastic.

I could get my friend on here to talk to you about his Ford Focus, and it's dodgy bonnet catch, but I think such an action would be banned under the Geneva Convention bit on Torture...

was this some foreign astra van ?

Dunno, it was a lease vehicle at the company I worked for at the time so who knows. Probably early 2000s, whatever Mk that would've been.

It's entirely possible that I'm misremembering and it was a different vehicle he was in at the time of course, but I could've sworn it was that van.

There was something wrong with the seat adjustment mechanism so sometimes you'd unleash all 59 wheezing french horses and the seat would slide right back and then lock. I'd be hanging onto the steering wheel but not able to reach the pedals!

I hired a nissan vanette one - forward control so you seats are on top of the engine. I learned this detail about the engine position pulling out from the hire co onto a roundabout. It became apparent that as part of the pre-hire engine checks they hadn't re-secured the seat properly - so pulled out and fell into the back of the van.

Went and picked up my GF and as we set off again I told her about the falling into the back of the van thing and as I pulled away she fell into the back of the van.

Mate once had an Astra van, the headlamp bulb went so he picked one up from Halfords. After a bit of headscratching he asked me for help. I couldn't fathom it either, so looked in the manual. "Dealer service only."

IIRC we hit the Internet for instructions and it was something like, "step 1, drain and remove the radiator..."

What vintage of astra is that? Not a problem on my circ 2004 but I want to replace it with another astra van when it finally pops (if it ever does).

I had an 06 Astra, there's a flap in the wheel arch that you take off to replace the bulb iirc

I drove my Father's 5 series E39 sport 6 cyl 1997 I think.

Drove fast, responsive and handles better than recent Mondeo I drove.

LPG and only 105K.

It has all the toys that are standard now luckily.

Are you really kidding yourself that old brakes are as good as new ones? Have you tried many new cars?
As I said the car is not poorly maintained. The brakes are perfectly adequate and will lock the wheels if pressed hard enough but that doesn't mean they are as good as modern brakes.

i thought about this as I had to brake hard for an errant sheep on the moors this morning in my 14yr old A3.

Has brake technology really moved on that much? Its still applying friction pads to a metal disc. with equal tyres fitted then I'd reckon my old A3 would out brake a modern A3 as its smaller and lighter.

P-jay's Passat sounds like there might be some problems with the alloy suspension control arms, which wear surprisingly rapidly and need replaced on a fairly regular basis. Worst thing is there are a lot of them...
If these are replaced as they wear, that car should still be taught and stable. I've a TDi of similar era and when driving quickly, it feels much better than the brand new 16 plate Toyotas and Astras in the office pool. Less toys to wrong and a proper handbrake for when it's snowing too.

If anything, disc brake technology in cars has actually gone backwards, not forwards. The problem is that the pad material has gone more towards what we as MTBers would call 'sintered', rather than organic. The normal road car pads are harder now, with less feedback into the pedal and this is one of several areas where racing brakesets differ markedly from road kit; they're designed to produce more feel at their higher operating temperatures. Harder pads also result in rapid disc wear as well as that reduction in feel. But again, as riders, we know that tyre contact is way more important in braking than the brakes themselves, which have been plenty good enough for years. Modern suspension geometry and response, plus tyre construction & compounds are the controlling factors...

Car brake pads have always been sintered. that refers to the method of manufacture not the material they're made of.

Don't forget modern disks are made from a softer material now. Hence why disks now need changing more often than they used to.

Don't forget modern disks are made from a softer material now. Hence why disks now need changing more often than they used to.

Really? I would assume it's the heavier cars.

The only reason I've had to replace more than one set of discs on any car I've owned is either overheating and warping, or not getting enough heat into them and rusting away.

Cougar - Moderator

Mate once had an Astra van, the headlamp bulb went so he picked one up from Halfords. After a bit of headscratching he asked me for help. I couldn't fathom it either, so looked in the manual. "Dealer service only."

Just bad design tbh- entire headlight unit comes out of my ford in about 5 seconds- 2 metal tabs and a plug. People always think it's for packaging reasons but that setup's no bulkier than the unservicables. Maybe better since it means you don't need access to the back of the light, just the top.

OTOH, when I had to change the little clutch master cylinder in my focus, step 1 was "remove the steering column", imagine my delight.

My first car was a polo in 1987 - JGH 402Y was the reg I think.

The brakes were really bad, heart-stoppingly so sometimes.

Actually drove pretty well apart from that.

i thought about this as I had to brake hard for an errant sheep on the moors this morning in my 14yr old A3.

Has brake technology really moved on that much? Its still applying friction pads to a metal disc. with equal tyres fitted then I'd reckon my old A3 would out brake a modern A3 as its smaller and lighter.

This time it wouldn't start and I was blocking the whole lane causing a big tailback. I sat with the hazards on trying to restart it but it wouldn't fire up.

Im no stranger to fixing cars by the side of the road. My first 5 cars were mini's so i got very used to fixing stuff roadside with a 13mm spanner.

Like others have said you need to find a good example of an older car to do a true comparison. Old models tend to be run on a shoestring so are guaranteed to be a bit rough around the edges.
I used to own a Vauxhall Nova 1.4 Luxe (G677 WPC, now dead 🙁 ), loved that car. Actually saw a near-identical one in Coleford in the FOD at the petrol station a few years ago, same year and spec but had the optional extra alloys. The cast BBG multispoke copies that were also on Astras. Got chatting to the owner who said he bought it new with a cash windfall and vowed to look after it perfectly until he could no longer drive, it was immaculate all over! Was a bit taken back when he offered me a drive in it, seemed quite chuffed I wanted to talk about it I think. It drove like new*, really good brakes, sharp steering, sweet gearbox and responsive throttle and no rattles. He was in his 70's so I left him my number saying if he ever sells it to give me first refusal. Saw it again late last year, still immaculate bimbling along.

Might have to start saving though as prices of Nova's seem to be going up 😯

* for a Nova, it wasn't the best car available back then!

I'd say older cars are often better to drive. Better visibility, more steering feel, lighter, more character, simpler to fix when they go wrong. New cars are pretty bland and 'samey' really.

there are older cars and older cars. I'm sure my B reg Golf would be rubbish now - crap lights, leaked like a sieve, but it always started and was easy to repair.. G reg Saab 900 was a bit slow but at least had power steering, felt solid as a tank, and visibility was ace. The boot was cavernous, flat load bay, huge tailgate, heated seats and I think looked just right. Even the 1996 P Saab 900 went well, had some great features and stopped well. just felt there was more redundancy and the engine wasn't shoehorned in the bay. Sure my nearly new car feels newer but I'd say that Saab - 20 years old, still going - was a pretty good car.

Mate of mine had a MkII Escort with a similar problem, only it was the seat back latch (it was a 2-door with foldy-forward seats to get in the back). So every time he gave it beans, which given that he'd have been about 19 and in a MkII Escort was "every time he set off," there'd be a *snap* and you'd be looking at the ceiling with your head on the back seat.

I picked up a sporty 205 last year and I've done some work on it. Use it as a daily and I actually look forward to driving it to work! The route is M3, M25, M4, but I've found all the A and B roads. Anyone else here (who doesn't ride in) look forward to their commute?

Anyone else here (who doesn't ride in) look forward to their commute?

certainly used to in my 156

Hmmm. 1L polo would be gutless, but the brakes were fine from memory. If not maintained the flexi lines degraded internally, also particularly susceptible to moisture in the fluid for some reason - stripped several calipers filled with "mayonnaise", funnily enough brakes more than adequate after that. MOT is sadly not a great indication of brake health, as long as the tester has a heavy enough foot.
De-misting with a chamois suggests blocked drains in the scuttle panel - water getting into the air vents and also flowing into the ecu eventually hence why you stopped. Give a modern car 6 years of looking after and 10 years of get it through another year maintenance and it will also feel like a piece of crap.

Some of you need to experience the joys of modern alfas. They sorted the electrics (ish) but made suspension arms and wheel bearing consumables.
Nice place to sit though.

Used to drive around with a hammer, old socket extension and emery cloth for when the starter solenoid stuck and points had built up a pip.

I more or less taught myself to drive in a MK1 Escort van that belonged to Gleesons, while working for the engineers on the Stokenchurch Cut on the M4. It took me a week to pluck up the courage to go into second gear! The Escort was nice to drive, had a super-smooth engine and incredibly light gearbox but in common with all cars pre-electronics, it had a manual choke, which you needed to remember to knock off when it warmed up. If you follow any of those old cars nowadays you'll smell the stink of unburned petrol (no lean-burn engines then) and oil burning off the cylinder walls. Up until when we married in 1997 Mrs Gti used to be an area sales manager and she used to arrive at my house on a Friday absolutely stinking of exhaust fumes after sitting on the M6 car park.

At least with those old carburettor cars you could get them started by taking off the air filter lid and pouring half a cup of petrol down the hole, something we often needed to do when I worked in a Vauxhall showroom.

The main thing for me that makes me like newer cars is the advanced in safety. I think the advanced in safety between the 90s cars and 00s are massive. I actually think it was a bigger step then then it has been since even though they are safer now l, they haven't advanced as much. However now with Volvos new cars they are just bringing out its going to be very hard to have an accident.

[img] [/img]

Proper old cars before wind tunnel design are great. In a bar near Pila last year a local pulled up in a Model T hotrod with a downhill bike in the back. Pure envy and lust. I very rarely suffer from the first emotion.

New ones can be crap too.

I've got a Citroen DS3 on contract hire, it's about 3 months old.

Goes well, stops ok, handles like a little french car should.

But it's already got loads of vibrations and rattles, the road noise on anything other than silky smooth new tar is pretty abismal, the part gloss interior scratches if you look at it, and at the joint between the front wing and bumper a clip seems to have given up so the bumper sits proud, I have to keep clipping it back on. In addition, a month after having it, the air con pump imploded and it spent 2 weeks in main dealer having it and most of the rest of the AC system replaced. Although the engine, gearbox, and electrics are new, most of the technology is very old.

I had a C3 courtesy car for the 2 weeks the DS3 was off the road, I had a good look around and most of the actual mechanical bits on it are the same technology, and I think some would actually fit my 205. That's over 30 year old tech.

This thread reminds me of Sunday afternoons when I was a kid in the late 70s. It seemed that the bonnet of every car in the street was up and the respective neighbours were bent over into the engine bay. Balding men with sideburns brandishing feeler gauges spanners and a well thumbed Hayne's. Extension leads running across the pavement to power a buzzing old battery charger. Spark-plugs and points falling through to the road below and the ensuing curses. Happy days when you could fix a car without a laptop and comm's cable.

Couple of things:

[I]Are you really kidding yourself that old brakes are as good as new ones? Have you tried many new cars?[/I]

I used to have a Mk2 Golf 16v. I bought new discs and pads for it, which were a mild upgrade at around 45k miles. They were still on it when I sold the car at 110k mile, with plenty of wear left in the pads. They were also supremely effective stoppers, sensitive too - I never once locked the front wheels, despite a good deal of rural driving in the depths of winter.

Modern brakes have a lot more work to do - cars are heavier, also they are constrained by materials as asbestos compounds aren't allowed anymore. This is why modern discs wear so quickly as they've had to make harder pads to compensate IIRC.

[i]They sorted the electrics (ish) but made suspension arms and wheel bearing consumables.[/i]

Yep, modern Alfas have the same Bosch electrics beloved of VW/Audi, but it's been calculated that it's cheaper to replace a whole suspension arm than to press out worn bushes and press in new ones. Happily, there are alternatives, Powerflex promise that their polyurethane bushes last ten times as long as their Alfa counterparts.

The disposable wishbone thing isn't just an Alfa phenomena either, several manufacturers do this.

My 20yo Volvo cost £400. Leather, electric memory seats, electric sunroof/mirrors, AC climate control, ABS. Shifts like a good un (the new Golf TDI's don't stand a chance and they have tried!). Brakes are just as good as my new Focus too. And I could probably park a Focus in its boot.

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And because it's RWD the turning circle is 3 METRES smaller than a new Passat so it's crazy easy to park.

I love my new Focus but blimey my Volvo is good too!

derek_starship - Member

This thread reminds me of Sunday afternoons when I was a kid in the late 70s. It seemed that the bonnet of every car in the street was up and the respective neighbours were bent over into the engine bay. Balding men with sideburns brandishing feeler gauges spanners and a well thumbed Hayne's. Extension leads running across the pavement to power a buzzing old battery charger. Spark-plugs and points falling through to the road below and the ensuing curses. Happy days when you could fix a car without a laptop and comm's cable.

Sunday afternoons in 2016- all the cars work. Everyone is doing something else.

Except me, I'm probably hitting mine with a hammer and swearing at it, the perfidious bastard.

Balding men with sideburns brandishing feeler gauges spanners and a well thumbed Hayne's. Extension leads running across the pavement to power a buzzing old battery charger. Spark-plugs and points falling through to the road below and the ensuing curses.

^this. I remember that my father seemed to spend a couple of hours under a bonnet every weekend fiddling with engines and swearing the air a shade of blue. Back then, he wasn't the only one, I recall being woken up early one morning as my neighbour fought a losing battle trying to start a two year old Ford Cortina, which made a progressively more anguished noise from the starter motor every time the key was turned.

People used to leave their freshly started cars idling on the driveway to warm up too.

Nothing old about any of the cars mentioned so far!

Built in the 20s, has taken us to the Le Mans Classic (and back!) and gets thrashed up stuff I wouldn't take our 4x4 up all winter competing in vintage trials.

Ok so the are no seat belts or heater and the pedals are in the wrong order but it's about as much fun as you can have on 4 wheels. No tax and insurance is about £50.

[img] [/img]

milky1980 - Member
Like others have said you need to find a good example of an older car to do a true comparison. Old models tend to be run on a shoestring so are guaranteed to be a bit rough around the edges.
I used to own a Vauxhall Nova 1.4 Luxe (G677 WPC, now dead ), loved that car. Actually saw a near-identical one in Coleford in the FOD at the petrol station a few years ago, same year and spec but had the optional extra alloys. The cast BBG multispoke copies that were also on Astras. Got chatting to the owner who said he bought it new with a cash windfall and vowed to look after it perfectly until he could no longer drive, it was immaculate all over! Was a bit taken back when he offered me a drive in it, seemed quite chuffed I wanted to talk about it I think. It drove like new*, really good brakes, sharp steering, sweet gearbox and responsive throttle and no rattles. He was in his 70's so I left him my number saying if he ever sells it to give me first refusal. Saw it again late last year, still immaculate bimbling along.

Might have to start saving though as prices of Nova's seem to be going up

* for a Nova, it wasn't the best car available back then!

Indeed, this was the sort of thing I was considering in my first post. I've had cars where I thought the brakes were fine, just not as sensitive as some newer cars, then put new pads and discs on and ended up locking up left, right and centre (and this was without even needing to replace calipers, or conduct a bleed, both of which might have given even better performance).

I've also driven hire cars with around 20k on them that feel very tired, it really does depend how well they're looked after (and yes I'd accept that as a method of getting from A to B you probably wouldn't perform much beyond keeping it MOT compliant, but that's different from it not being possible to maintain it to a better standard).

None old apart from the Ford Model T hot rod. Cool car james. Ive got shirts older than some of the others.

Nothing beats the feel and smell of a brand-new car and it doesn't last long; my Passat B8 now has 20,000 miles on it and the terrible roads have already taken their toll of the shockers; it still drives well but it just lacks that eager springy feeling of a brand-new, unworn car. As for the smell.... well my cars always get passed on to somebody more junior because I look after them very well. Currently my old B7 is being driven around by a lovely girl from Marketing and I feel so sorry for her; if she knew just how much I farted in that seat she'd hand it straight back.