[Closed] Hunting with dogs?

Hunting is only fair if the hunted animal has a chance to kill you too. I recommend wild boar hunting with only close range weapons like knife or spear.

Hunting things like foxes is for posh wooses who like to posture around in their fancy pants.

I don't think he was aiming at you either.

I've hunted wild boar, didn't get any though, they are tricky.

I challenge you to prove to me that without meat you would suffer any nutritional loss, I do not even expect you to get ill or die without it, just to suffer slightly?

Vitamin B12 deficiency is a reduction in vitamin B12 from inadequate dietary intake or impaired absorption. The condition is commonly asymptomatic, but can also present as anemia characterized by enlarged blood corpuscles with characteristic changes in neutrophils, known as megaloblastic anemia.

In serious cases deficiency can potentially cause severe and irreversible damage to the nervous system, including subacute combined degeneration of spinal cord.

Vitamin B12 is found in foods that come from animals, including fish, meat, poultry, eggs, milk, and milk products and fortified breakfast cereals. It is made by yeasts and microorganisms.[36] One half chicken breast, provides some 0.3 µg per serving or 6% of your daily value (DV), 3 ounces of beef, 2.4 µg, or 40% of your DV, one slice of liver 47.9 µg or 780% of your DV, and 3 ounces of molluscs 84.1 µg, or 1,400% of your DV, while one egg provides 0.6 µg or 10% of your DV. Other sources include nutritional yeast, fortified soy milks, and fortified energy bars.

so you either eat meat/animal products to get B12 or have to use "fortified" products which have been heavily processed and manufactured if you want to be a vegan. hmmmmm no thanks I'll stick with the natural version

aracer; I don't know what point you're trying to make with me. I've agreed that chickens are kept in bad conditions. i just don't see how fox-hunting is in any way more acceptable, as you seem to be suggesting.

(or if you do, it is possible to buy some which has led a proper life, though doubtless that wouldn't suit your finances)

😆 You might be right there, I've got to budget for Turkey Twizzlers, White Cider and Lambert and Butlers!

'Organic' and 'Free Range' are marketing terms designed to make people think they are being all nice and environmental. all bullshit; just the same chickens in different packaging, costing 3 times as much.

The subject of this thread is hunting with dogs. so far, apart from attempts to steer the debate onto chickens, no-one has actually come up with any sensible, reasonable and justifiable reason why fox hunting should continue.

can we re-train dogs to hunt catholic paedo priests (not picking on anyone in particular, it's purely an example)etc..? that way the toffs get their hunt, the daily mail readers get a nice warm feeling of justice and the "hang them, burn them, kill them all" capital punishment crew also get to see some blood and suffering that they seem to want. We could even televise it with interactive votes and Davina presenting it.

I'll simply make one comment - how many of you talking about hunting have ever:

i) Farmed?
ii) Hunted?
iii) Shot anything?
iv) Actually seen a fox?

So, if you've not done any of these things, you're not allowed to have an opinion, then? 🙄

I am descended from farming people, and have seen many foxes. I've never been hunting, but have no problem with hunting for food at all. As for shooting; I could take your eye out from 200m. 😉

so you either eat meat/animal products to get B12 or have to use "fortified" products which have been heavily processed and manufactured if you want to be a vegan. hmmmmm no thanks I'll stick with the natural version

Ok this is all interesting but basically vegans can eat the supplements and live perfectly well ergo there is no "utility" reason here to eat meat.

I agree with your sentiment though, I'll stick to the natural version too.

B12 supplements are synthetic, therefore without the manufacturing technology to support a vegan lifestyle choice they would have to eat some form of animal product containing B12, therefore no longer vegan. 😉

i just don't see how fox-hunting is in any way more acceptable, as you seem to be suggesting.

'Organic' and 'Free Range' are marketing terms designed to make people think they are being all nice and environmental. all bullshit; just the same chickens in different packaging, costing 3 times as much.

The subject of this thread is hunting with dogs. so far, apart from attempts to steer the debate onto chickens, no-one has actually come up with any sensible, reasonable and justifiable reason why fox hunting should continue.

here is no "utility" reason here to eat meat.

Eh? I think it's actually been proven that meat is an essential part of many people's diets, worldwide. As I pointed out earlier I doubt the Inuit people would survive without meat.

B12 supplements are synthetic, therefore without the manufacturing technology to support a vegan lifestyle choice they would have to eat some form of animal product containing B12, therefore no longer vegan.

My challenge didn't mention that this was only valid in a post apocalyptic world. I don't believe anyone could be vegan if it wasn't today, 100 years ago it would have been very very difficult, but then we wouldn't be having such an enlightened discussion about cruelty to animals. My argument is that there is no reason for anyone in this day and age to eat meat, I did mention that at the very beginning.

As I pointed out earlier I doubt the Inuit people would survive without meat.

Eh? I think it's actually been proven that meat is an essential part of many people's diets, worldwide. iAs I pointed out earlier I doubt the Inuit people would survive without meat.

I don't think this proves it in any way, they could choose to be less "barbaric" and move south into the modern world, that would be the moral thing to do. Anyway I think you will find most of them have moved into the modern world. We are talking about choice here.

so it's ok to have mass industry with the increased energy consumption and associated use of resources and production of waste and pollution to make dietry supplements for those people to have a lifestyle choice that is unsustainable without it, as a morally acceptable alternative to eating meat?

Anyone who gets pleasure from inflicting suffering and/or death on animals needs psychiatric help.

we're animals too, and designed to eat anything we can get our teeth into, apart from plant matter, because we can't break down and digest cellulose. Just look at how ****ed pandas are. Complete evolutionary dead end.

tazzymtb - Member

so it's ok to have mass industry with the increased energy consumption and associated use of resources and production of waste and pollution to make dietry supplements for those people to have a lifestyle choice that is unsustainable without it, as a morally acceptable alternative to eating meat?

You are talking yourself round in circles here, nobody on here was talking about the environment, it sounds like you are proposing that we all live in some kind of proto palealogic environment, I would imagine that any food we get our hands on would be essential and we would probably all die before we are 40...

Anyway I'll bet that there are lots of organic/eco/environmentally friendly ways of making B12 dietary supplements. Most vegans are properly clued up about the environment and food production methods and their effects on the ecosystems.

they could choose to be less "barbaric" and move south into the modern world, that would be the moral thing to do

W
T
F
????

Sod this, I'm off to watch CSI...

so it's ok to have mass industry with the increased energy consumption and associated use of resources and production of waste and pollution to make dietry supplements for those people to have a lifestyle choice that is unsustainable without it, as a morally acceptable alternative to eating meat?

Anyone who gets pleasure from inflicting suffering and/or death on animals needs psychiatric help.

You give me comparative figures for the energy and resource consumption of the dietary supplements business versus the meat production business and I'll give you an answer.

Yup dead right most vegans will tell you much better for the environment it is to get food from plants than it is to get it from animals.

Hmm, a few narrow minded opinions on here in my opinion.

I shoot, however I am not a 'toff/banker/rich man' I believe that the work that goes into a shoot benefits the local wildlife. Where i shoot there are 2 breeds of deer, various birds of prey, lots of wild birds that you don't normally see. None of these are shot i may add.
like it or not shooting supports conservation.
I admit to not being a fan of large bird days (100 upwards)however i have shot on such days as a guest in return for a season of 'beating'. I have been on shoots where i've shot 1 bird but still had a great day out because of the crack with the other guns.

It annoys me that some people in society take it upon themselves to bad mouth shooting without the full knowledge of what it is about and the majority of the people i know who shoot are respectful and generally nice people.

The same goes for hunting - whilst i am not a true fan of the hounds ripping a fox apart - i do like the spectacle of the riders and horses. again i know some very nice people who hunt (who havent got a "blood lust") and go for the love of riding. I also know of a few to$$ers who hunt and who fit the sterotype perfectly.

Theres not really much point to my post but i wanted to make my opinion. Generally in my experience with this type of argument it boils down to a class thing - and this is no dig at anyone in particular on here - i used to work with a guy who was so ignorant of what went on at a shoot yet would go on at me about it calling me a snob, saying I was cruel etc but the same person would then happily buy a piece of $hit, cheap ill treated piece of meat from the supermarket. Game has a much better start in life - FACT.

Anyway I'll bet that there are lots of organic/eco/environmentally friendly ways of making B12 dietary supplements. Most vegans are properly clued up about the environment and food production methods and their effects on the ecosystems

LOL

I take it you are not from a scientific/pharmaceutical or manufacturing background then? As with anything you need to examine a full life cycle analysis of any product meat/supplements/etc... before you can make an informed choice. You seem to forget that dietry supplement manufacture is a massive multi-billion pound global business. 😀

I take it you are not from a scientific/pharmaceutical or manufacturing background then? As with anything you need to examine a full life cycle analysis of any product meat/supplements/etc... before you can make an informed choice. You seem to forget that dietry supplement manufacture is a massive multi-billion pound global business.

BEng and MSc and 20 years experience in industry, I know plenty about supplement and pharmaceutical manufacture, like aracer said you don't seem to know anything about food production and what it takes to make a cow. I didn't make any comment on what your quote above says, and really your are not making much of a point here. Are you trying to say that vegan-ism is responsible for all of the worlds industrial pollution?

Chameleon - its nothing to do with class - its to do with moral. Killing animals for fun is simply morally wrong. There is some excuse if there is utility - the animal will be eaten or it is a pest and its the only way to control it. But a deliberately prolonged chase of a wild animal with dogs that has no utility whatsoever is just morally indefensible and no one has come close to doing so. Lots of spurious debate about other things to try to distract form the basic cruelty of hunting with dogs.

Its deliberately cruel and people are only there to enjoy the deliberate cruelty.

Its clearly immoral by any standards and no one here or anywhere else has made any defence that carries any weight. Its a barbaric remnet and will hopefully be properly stopped one day.

Oh - and shooting is not always good for conservation - see denuded grouse moors, see the overgrazing by deer that are fed thru the winter etc etc.

what it takes to make a cow

Well, when a mummy cow and a daddy cow love each other very much....

no

what I'm saying is that if you look at the full life cycle analysis of industrial farming, meat processing, packaging etc..

against

the manufacture of dietary supplements (which would not be required if we eat what is already available as food resource) including all the plastics used in bottles, production facilities, energy to light heat and power the factories etc.. it's not such a black and white case.

just playing devil advocate

and yes I do know lots about food production seeing as used to inspect ****in food production facilities and pharma facilities for a living.xx

well, when a mummy cow and a daddy cow love each other very much

genius 😀

vegans do not need dietary supplements - its a myth.

yey-let's hear it for TJ and other one his "I'm god " moments 🙄

You seem to forget that dietry supplement manufacture is a massive multi-billion pound global business.

Of course this is all rather ignoring the issue that it's only being a true vegan that you have a problem with B12. As you mention yourself back up there, there are plenty of non-meat sources for this (hence you don't even prove that "without meat you would suffer any nutritional loss"). No problem with maintaining a healthy diet whilst avoiding both the meat and the dietary supplements industries. Heck you can even avoid the significant cruelties of the meat industry and still eat meat. Not that most anti-hunt people are particularly bothered about that (after all meat comes ready packaged in the supermarket, so it's easy to ignore it was ever anything to do with an animal).

wtf you on about tazzymtb?

Well, vegans, like everyone else, do need the right nutrients, and if they can't get these from their diet, then they will become malnourished without supplements.

Some of the most unhealthy people i've known have been vegans. It's not that easy.

Lots of spurious debate about other things to try to distract form the basic cruelty of hunting with dogs.

As opposed to the basic cruelty of herding animals into trucks by beating the crap out of them, making them travel for 8 hrs, beating the crap of them at the other end whilst herding them into a chamber to be electrocuted, as they walk past piles of offal and skin they can smell and hear the death and fear, for no reason other than to satisfy your taste buds.

Yes but this thread is about hunting with dogs.

people are only there to enjoy the deliberate cruelty.

Yes but this thread is about hunting with dogs.

Yes but this thread is about hunting with dogs

Ok sorry I'll just talk about hunting with dogs an not use anything else as an example to support my arguments. So what was all that stuff about inuits and pharma?

tazzy, if I can pick you up on your libelous dissin' of the Ailuropoda genus, Pandas aren't by any means an evolutionary dead end, they're a specialisation, which brings higher risk with it.
Their evolutionary bad luck was being specialised at a time when they share the planet with a particularly invasive type of primate...
anyhoo, back to the toffs (and apologists) defending their hobby.. 😉

Inuits hunt for food. Fox hunting is not justifiable in any way.

I think you'll find it's about debate and generally making peoples minds work a little bit, and possibly taking the piss a smidgen 😉

aracer I agree with you, but it's always fun to put an opposing argument together to see how it works, that way you can look it from both sides 😀

aracer - well that was the admission from toys - I suggested that all teh soocial benefit from hunting could be achieved by drag hunting. He asid drag hunting won't work as people need the thrill of the kill.

Hunting with dogs is inherently cruel as it is designed to give a long chase - the dogs are bred so as to be only a small amount quicker that the prey. If they caught it in 2 minutes it wouldn't be much fun would it?

If the fox was being killed in the quickest adn most efficient way and if hunting with dogs actually reduced populations of foxes there might be some sense - but hunts actually feed and support foxes to provide prey and certainly don't want to see the wiped out - thei is admitted by various hunts.

West Kipper if the Panda lived during the same period as tazzymtbs proposed proto society with no manufacturing or factories of any kind would they be better off?

aracer I agree with you