[Closed] Humans are a Plague on Earth.

Why should we apologise for who we are?

I didn't say that, it annoys me when people think our technological development and dominance over other species is a good thing and something to be proud of. Well, maybe it is, but we should not be proud of the way we have achieved this since the industrial revolution.

Why should we apologise for who we are?

I didn't say that, it annoys me when people think our technological development and dominance over other species is a good thing and something to be proud of. Well, maybe it is, but we should not be proud of the way we have achieved this since the industrial revolution.

Absolutely. But we compete with other natural processes, and we destroy them to an extent seemingly unprecented- we are a 2 legged extinction event. The world will always be covered in "nature", even if that nature is ice sheets and deserts.

I actually agree with you NW, I was really just pointing out that Attenborough's argument was a bit daft - but it's probably deemed more newsworthy than the more sensible suggestion that we should try to limit our impact on the planet as it will all be a bit shit if we don't!

I'm actually rather pleased that for once someone get's my rather robotic sense of morality instead of calling me a "Hitler". (No hard feelings about that by the way)

😯 I didn't call you Hitler if you are referring to me. But I do agree with your solution if not your view on humanity.

I didn't say that, it annoys me when people think our technological development and dominance over other species is a good thing and something to be proud of. Well, maybe it is, but we should not be proud of the way we have achieved this since the industrial revolution.

I agree, but people like David A. make me wary.

You know, when I got home from school when I was 11 or 12....on 9/11.....the first thing to spring to mind was that Green Peace had gone a bit too far.

Some of the discourse coming out of the Green movement really worries me sometimes and that is what has put me off. It's not that I don't agree with certain points etc or believe the wholesale destruction of the rainforest is a good thing....it's just I dislike many of their philosophical inclinations.

I didn't call you Hitler if you are referring to me. But I do agree with your solution if not your view on humanity.

It's no biggy, I love heated discussions! They make me question my own point of view, that's what life should be about.

You know, when I got home from school when I was 11 or 12....on 9/11.....the first thing to spring to mind was that Green Peace had gone a bit too far.

Genuine WTF!

Plague is a crap analogy. If we're the plague, what's the vector? I think fungus works better.

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Agent Smith: I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You're a plague and we are the cure.

You know, when I got home from school when I was 11 or 12....on 9/11.....the first thing to spring to mind was that Green Peace had gone a bit too far.

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It's pretty easy to see that this growth can continue and not cause a problem. population has more than doubled in 60 years and isn't slowing down at some point it's going to bite us.

Ernie, I'll take your pedantry on the nose. We do destroy things, as do bacteria and stars.

However, the point I was trying to make is that said destruction is not a moral issue. we are no more immoral to dig up coal than bacteria are to consume a leaf.

Genuine WTF!

Well.....the twin towers were a symbol of globalization and corporate greed......Islamic terrorism had kind of been off the radar......despite a few limited attacks.

Turns out the FBI thought so to and subsequently investigated many environmental groups post 9/11, before they gained a clear picture of what happened.

That barchart makes no sense, I think it needs some axis.
Is that year (AD) on the x axis and population (million) on the y?

Yes it is. Sorry.

Population control is easy btw, we just get a big worldwide deathmatch. 2 kills and yer through to the next round!

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The United Nations Department of Economic and Social Affairs report (2004) projects the world population to peak at 9.22 billion in 2075. After reaching this maximum the world population is projected to decline slightly and then resume increasing slowly, to reach a level of 8.97 billion by 2300, about the same as the projected 2050 figure

Doomed......WE'RE DOOOOMED I TELLS YA!

It's scary to think that it took around 100,000 years for our population to reach 3.5bn, yet that figure had doubled in around 45 years. I don't think it's going to be pretty when it peaks, but it will probably save many a problem.

It's scary to think that it took around 100,000 years for our population to reach 3.5bn, yet that figure had doubled in around 45 years. I don't think it's going to be pretty when it peaks, but it will probably save many a problem.

All projections seem to say otherwise.

The worry is consumption, we just have to make sure our consumption is cleaner. We need to do this through massive government investment in new technologies, much like government heavily invested in new technologies that enabled the industrial revolution.

Genuine WTF!

Indeed. Although as an 11 year old I don't suppose I had a clue what was actually going on in the world either 😉

give chimps 50,000 years and they will only do the same as us.

They haven't managed to do a massive amount in the last Five Million years or so.

But maybe we are holding them back, 50,000 years unhindered and I'm sure they could manage stuff like Shoes, Melon ballers, chainsaws, nuclear reactors, satellites, and wide handlebars etc.

0.5% growth on current numbers is still massive population growth when our starting figure is over six billion.

Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area.

See Agent Smith is talking shite here. Natural equilibrium doesn't exist (and never has)

Just ask the Red Deer

They haven't managed to do a massive amount in the last Five Million years or so.

I heard that some of them were working on producing the complete works of Shakespeare by hitting random keys on a typewriter.

Man, those chimps think BIG.

See Agent Smith is talking shite here.

Not to mention mixing his metaphors. A virus and a cancer?

But maybe we are holding them back, 50,000 years unhindered and I'm sure they could manage stuff like Shoes, Melon ballers, chainsaws, nuclear reactors, satellites, and wide handlebars etc.

I hope you're right. I'd hate to think that the poor chimps will never experience the joy of 800mm bars.

The worry is consumption, we just have to make sure our consumption is cleaner. We need to do this through massive government investment in new technologies, much like government heavily invested in new technologies that enabled the industrial revolution.

You don't think there will be food shortages?

This place seems to be worse than anywhere for spreading the plague. Hardly a week goes by without some boringly proud Dad coming on here and happily rabbling on about his latest offspring.

Yeah well done super Dad, really impressive... Another 3000 nappies in the landfill.

This place seems to be worse than anywhere for spreading the plague. Hardly a week goes by without some boringly proud Dad coming on here and happily rabbling on about his latest offspring.

Yeah well done super Dad, really impressive those 3000 nappies in the landfill...

There's nothing wrong with having kids.....

Turns out the FBI thought so to and subsequently investigated many environmental groups post 9/11, before they gained a clear picture of what happened.

I think you need to re read those news stories. And try joining the dots again.

The FBI never thought Greenpeace or any other Environmental group were responsible for the 9/11 attacks !

INRAT but yes, humans should be limited to having one child each

INRAT but yes, humans should be limited to having one child each

Awesome plan. Assuming everyone is a parent, we will be back down to about 89 people in only 27 generations. 😆

You don't think there will be food shortages?

No, the worlds 100 richest people could end food poverty 4 times over through investment in food production according to Oxfam.....or something like that. Then we have to suffer the hilarity of listening to Bill Gates bang on about Global Warming and population on Ted Talks....when it is in fact he who is the problem and could help solve the problem of third world birthrates if he handed over 25 percent of his wealth. The problem is the hoarding of wealth.

We need to bring the rich back into line before they get any more ideas from Malthus.

I think you need to re read those news stories. And try joining the dots again.

The FBI never thought Greenpeace or any other Environmental group were responsible for the 9/11 attacks !

Well it was years ago when I read them, this is beside the point. I don't like much of the discussion from the green community. Especially when it comes from the likes of Prince Charles, Bill Gates, Al Gore or any other rich bastard.

Humans are great.
We've made the world we live in so interesting and beautiful.
We destroy beauty but also manipulate our environment to create astounding beauty.

A baked bean tin has as much intrinsic beauty as an untouched forest or glacial valley.

It's a matter of opinion, not FACT.

bwaarp - Member
... we have to suffer the hilarity of listening to Bill Gates bang on about Global Warming and population on Ted Talks....when it is in fact he who is the problem and could help solve the problem of third world birthrates if he handed over 25 percent of his wealth...

he's giving away practically all of it, and he's quite successful at pursuading other billionaires to do the same.

you may not like it, but he's one of the good guys.

google: bill and melinda.

i agree with attenborough, we're a plague.

and by that i mean; it's just our weight of numbers that's the problem.

[b]narrow minded[/b] Humans are a Plague on Earth.

he's giving away practically all of it, and he's quite successful at pursuading other billionaires to do the same.

you may not like it, but he's one of the good guys.

google: bill and melinda.

i agree with attenborough, we're a plague.

and by that i mean; it's just our weight of numbers that's the problem.

Horsecrap, Bill is and never was one of the good guys. If he was, he'd have given away more of his wealth by now. He has not. This is where I agree with Monbiot.....numbers are not the problem....consumption and the type of consumption is.

You like many others just want to carry on your affluent western lifestyle at the expense of brown people.

I love this: From the Matrix
Agent Smith: Can you hear me, Morpheus? I'm going to be honest with you. I... hate this place, this zoo, this prison, this reality, whatever you want to call it. I can't stand it any longer. It's the smell, if there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink. And every time I do I feel I have somehow been infected by it. It's repulsive, isn't it? I must get out of here. I must get free and in this mind is the key, my key. Once Zion is destroyed there is no need for me to be here, don't you understand? I need the codes. I have to get inside Zion, and you have to tell me how. You're going to tell me, or you're going to die.

Things are only going to get worse............ 👿

A baked bean tin has as much intrinsic beauty as an untouched forest or glacial valley.

I laughed a lot at that...... until I realized you weren't joking 🙄

And people like Bill Gates are only adding to the problem. He believes he is doing his bit for humanity with his Malaria eradication programme.

The culture in the third world is t have as many children as possible, because people know many will be lost through starvation, illness, accident etc. In the third world, they think this: children=security in old age. So the more offspring you have, the better protected you will be.

You have to change attitudes and educate people to have one child. Fat chance in places like Africa. The Chinese seem to have managed though.

Even here, it is generally those who can least afford children, who have too many. The rest of society picks up the tab, like this is all ok.

In the end, you have to worry about what you can change, so this matter is for world governments to sort out. If they don't, Attenborough's prediction will be borne out.

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I think the population growth is complicated, at least in our society. Often those who live off the state feel free to have many children and collect the rewards whilst those who work hard are reluctant to have larger families due to work comitments, cost of child care, larger property and education costs etc.
We can already see 2nd and 3rd generations who have never known their parents to work. This results in children with no desire to persue efucation and work. Some countries are going into the red supporting these people. So I believe the growing population is adverse to both our planet and society.
Bill Gates a good guy !
Just google Bill Gates eugenics or population control, he and many other people and organisations with great power and influence on this planet have population reduction high on their to do list. Read up on vaccines and diesease, wars are good too, keep the population controlled through irrational fear of this and that.
Read the text of the georgia guidestones, now it cannot be more clear

And people like Bill Gates are only adding to the problem. He believes he is doing his bit for humanity with his Malaria eradication programme.

You have to reduce death rates to reduce the amount of children people want.

Jeesus

I do agree that the only way forward for humanity and therefore the rest of the planet,is through socialist means of production in the truest sense, not some state sponsered abomination. The true potential of most humans is never remotely realised under an exploitative capitalist system ,that inherently seeks short term gain at almost any cost.

A baked bean tin has as much intrinsic beauty as an untouched forest or glacial valley.
I laughed a lot at that...... until I realized you weren't joking

I think what he means is that there's no such thing as intrinsic beauty. It's in the eye of the beholder.

Nothing has any intrinsic worth at all (unless you are religious). The only reason it matters if the world gets destroyed in a toxic fireball is because we're here to be upset by it.

I laughed a lot at that...... until I realized you weren't joking

I guess you're at the "kittens are cute" stage of your life.
Wait around, it'll get even more beautiful.

I think the population growth is complicated, at least in our society. Often those who live off the state feel free to have many children and collect the rewards whilst those who work hard are reluctant to have larger families due to work comitments, cost of child care, larger property and education costs etc.
We can already see 2nd and 3rd generations who have never known their parents to work. This results in children with no desire to persue efucation and work. Some countries are going into the red supporting these people. So I believe the growing population is adverse to both our planet and society.
Bill Gates a good guy !
Just google Bill Gates eugenics or population control, he and many other people and organisations with great power and influence on this planet have population reduction high on their to do list. Read up on vaccines and diesease, wars are good too, keep the population controlled through irrational fear of this and that.
Read the text of the georgia guidestones, now it cannot be more clear

How is hard population control through wars, covert anti-fertility vaccines and engineered disease a good thing, or even more natural than increasing the carrying capacity of planet earth.

All hippies should know, that these kinds of things can backfire.

And people like Bill Gates are only adding to the problem. He believes he is doing his bit for humanity with his Malaria eradication programme.

Also, I've decided that this person is a racist who's decided that the poor have less of a right to life than him.

How about creating jobs for them instead of hoarding wealth hey?

Just a thought... Earth's land area: 150,000,000 sq km... Population: 6,700,000,000... Area per person: 22,000 sq m... even if just 10% is usable that's 2,200 sq m per person..

You only need 4 acres to feed someone....less if we go GMO big time.

Carrying capacity my ass.

bwaarp - it is the over-consumption that is the problem - the massive burden that 'civilised' nations place upon resources.

could help solve the problem of third world birthrates

Given that a baby born in the USA will consume something like 80 times the carbon of a child born in Africa, 3rd world birthrates are less of a problem than 1st world consumption.

+1

Also

So who do I believe in regards to population....NASA or some bunch of ****ing malthusian anti-human loons. Hmmmm

Here's a comment on the article by Slate.

And in the long term—on the order of centuries—we could be looking at the literal extinction of humanity.

That might sound like an outrageous claim, but it comes down to simple math. According to a 2008 IIASA report, if the world stabilizes at a total fertility rate of 1.5—where Europe is today—then by 2200 the global population will fall to half of what it is today. By 2300, it’ll barely scratch 1 billion. (The authors of the report tell me that in the years since the initial publication, some details have changed—Europe’s population is falling faster than was previously anticipated, while Africa’s birthrate is declining more slowly—but the overall outlook is the same.) Extend the trend line, and within a few dozen generations you’re talking about a global population small enough to fit in a nursing home.

So not only are we dealing with alarmists ruled by emotion (oh noes the ****ing polar bears!), we're dealing with such an unknown that if the alarmists got their way....humanity could theoretically be wiped off the face of the planet all together.

**** we might be left with the hilarious situation whereby the Catholics were right.

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I feel I'm surrounded by idiots on this planet sometimes. On the one hand, I hate the global warming denial lot....on the other hand I hate a good 70 percent of the greenies.

It isn't the numbers, up or down. It is the human race living beyond the capacity of the planet. Finite resources coupled with a desire for unconstrained fiscal growth does not balance. The illusion of the free market economy will trash the planet before breeding up or down will.

Nah, strike that. No need.

t isn't the numbers, up or down. It is the human race living beyond the capacity of the planet. Finite resources coupled with a desire for unconstrained fiscal growth does not balance. The illusion of the free market economy will trash the planet before breeding up or down will.

+1

We need to reduce consumption or create cleaner means of consumption. Having said that we don't need to resort to drastic reduction of capitalism, all we need to do is use government legislation to drive the r&d and production of greener technology and or programs that reduce consumption by increasing recycling.

We need to move away from natural strategic materials to those that we can make synthetically without resorting to digging up vast swathes of the Amazon. We need to cut agricultural dependence on oil, then eventually our own. We need to reduce the footprint of agricultural land by more intensive farming methods- we need to encourage more of the worlds population to live in cities and increase happiness amongst those people by improving environmental conditions within cities as well. Policies like this would give me some hope when coupled with decreasing birth rates in the third world once they become more developed. Lastly we need to develop policies to deal with the effects of climate change, as we may well be to late to mitigate it.

Could we for example find green uses for new technologies like graphene? Exciting times. 😀

I'm confident humanity could succeed in this endeavor without resorting to eugenics or whatever David and various greens would have us do.

Could we for example find green uses for new technologies like graphene? Exciting times.

bwaarp - Member

So not only are we dealing with alarmists ruled by emotion (oh noes the **** polar bears!), we're dealing with such an unknown that if the alarmists got their way....humanity could theoretically be wiped off the face of the planet all together.

It takes a special sort of mind to take "We should reduce or stop our rate of expansion" and conclude that the end result is extinction.

It takes a special sort of mind to take "We should reduce or stop our rate of expansion" and conclude that the end result is extinction.

It takes an even worse one to take "Our population is increasing....we must enact policies to drastically cut human population".... based on crap scientific data.

And it takes a particularly nasty kind of human being to consider overpopulation as more of a problem than over consumption.

bwaarp - Member

And it takes a particularly nasty kind of human being to consider overpopulation as more of a problem than over consumption.

Where did I say it's more of a problem? But clearly they're inseperable.

FWIW- when someone points out you've said something daft, pointing to someone else and saying "they said something daft too" isn't a very compelling defence.

Having said that we don't need to resort to drastic reduction of capitalism, all we need to do is use government legislation to drive the r&d and production of greener technology and or programs that reduce consumption by increasing recycling.

No. Capitalism is based upon growth. GDP needs to be abandoned and another value used - it is no longer valid. Believing that advances in technology and more recycling can fix this mess is a blinkered dream.

Well said.

Just a thought... Earth's land area: 150,000,000 sq km... Population: 6,700,000,000... Area per person: 22,000 sq m... even if just 10% is usable that's 2,200 sq m per person..

You only need 4 acres to feed someone....less if we go GMO big time.

4 acres is 16,200m^2.....

bwaarp, i did not mean to sound as though i agree with Bill Gates or think war is a good thing, i was implying that those who believe in population reduction through covert vaccination etc also think wars are an effective measure.
Personally i'm sick watching America and lap dog Britain marching into manufactured wars to find another pot of gold.
I recently read that there have now been in excess of 60,000 deaths in these "wars" and that aprox 90% are innocent civilians. Thats the same as 20 9/11 attacks and hardly a word about it in mainstream media,it's disgusting !!!
I still believe that a section of society who have no means to support themselves should NOT be having more and more children for tax payers to support. If they do, then they should accept that they will be raising this family in poverty.
This planet has enough resources to go around atm, but world leaders know that whether you're managing a country or the global population, you need to have the poor all the way up to the rich or it dont work.

Curious that he chose to use Ethiopian famine as a case to prove his point as that had far more to do with decades of civil war rather than overpopulation.