I know of one council which set up its own 'arms length' organisation so it could road repairs and such. Have no others followed the same model?
Well, without supermarkets I'd have to spend all Saturday shopping instead of riding my bike, as it is I can do my shopping after work.
there are no virtually no independent food shops thus the small producer is also squeezed out. No cheese shops
Oh do be brief. Was Edinburgh awash with neighbourhood cheese shops before the incessant march of Tesco? No it wasn't! Speciality shops are just that - speciality. The decline of herring fishing in Scotland I can cope with - the unavailability of local cheese shops might not be such a rich historical study.
Just to add - if the masses didn't want supermarkets, they wouldn't be in business.
We live in a free market economy there will always be big companies I would rather be the boss of Evans than a sh1t lbs that makes no money
Thank you TJ for making my case much more eloquently than I could ever hoped to. When I was a lad in Edinburgh, cheese came in one big block. It was orange. The chap behind the wee counter cut it off with a knife - the same one he'd just used for chopping up the chicken. Veg was potato. If you were very lucky, you might see a bit of turnip, carrot or cauliflower. Coffee was drunk by snobs and only came in a jar marked Nescafé. Milk was thick and creamy and would clog your arteries as soon as you looked at it.
You are living in a fantasy world if you think that supermarkets have restricted choice for the majority. The only folk wringing their hands about it are those that can't quite find the right breed of FairTrade mung beans.
I know of one council which set up its own 'arms length' organisation so it could road repairs and such.
Actually LAs can still do the work in house, if the work has gone out to tender and has been won competitively. This doesn't happen very often for obvious reasons......."model employer" Vs money-grabbing corner-cutting outfit. And of course the whole process tends to drive standards down.
The result is LESS choice for the consumer. I have a choice of tesco, asda or Lidl - there are no virtually no independent food shops thus the small producer is also squeezed out. No cheese shops so I can only buy plastic wrapped mass produced cheese, no independent bakeries so no real bread is available. My local shopping area is poorer for the supermarkets. Choice is reduced
[url= http://www.mellischeese.co.uk/MellisHome.asp ]Mellis Cheese shop[/url] has six stores in Edinbugh
[url= http://www.valvonacrolla.co.uk/ ]Valvona Crolla[/url] offer online stuff plus have a store on Leith Walk.
Plus there are plenty of delicatessens.
Druidh - well thats against the experience of the many. The best food shopping I have seen is whre there are no supermarkets.
Many folk agree that supermarkets = less choice. I don't know why you have to be so disparaging with your comments about health food or mung beans. Its about wanting the choice not to have plastic wrapped tasteless everything.
Look at all the local campaigns against tesco - the portobello one suceeded
If you want to have the choice only to buy tasteless plastic wrapped food from a retailer who uses their monopoly position to deliberately squeeze out the independents retailers and small producers then thats your choice. I would rather have diversity and choice and independent retailers - and fruit and veg and cheese that tastes of something
CaptJon
Mellis Cheese shop has six stores in Edinbugh
Valvona Crolla offer online stuff plus have a store on Leith Walk.Plus there are plenty of delicatessens.
TJThanks Jon, i'll check those out and support local independent producers and retailers
No problem.
How long have you lived in Edinburgh TJ? I can't believe you've never visited smellie mellies for your designer milk curd fix.
I'm not having a go at health foods, I'm merely using those examples to illustrate the fact that, [i]for the vast majority[/i] of consumers, supermarkets have actually [i]increased[/i] the choice of food available. I mean, I can now go into the Co-op in Stornoway and buy kumquats. WTF is that all about?
Hmmm, why might town centres be dying?
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Take a trip to France - town centre shops open till seven, shops shut and bars/restaurants open as th shops close.
Offices/factories etc close at five - theres actually a reason to go into town after work, do a bit of shopping and then grab dinner and a drink dinner before going home.
Go into a British town centre after work, its closed!
society has changed, women increasingly go out to work, the opening hours have to change to meet the market - if they don't then the customers go somewhere that [b]does[/b] suit their lifestyles.
No half day closing on a Wednesday?
Druidh - 20 years. I know mellis well.
In that time I have watched the independents going form the high street leeaving me with less choice. Soon the last greengrover will have gone meaning I cannot buy ripe fruit with flavour anywhere locally
I agree with you that when the supermarkets were first arriving they did increase choice - but now they are acting as a monopoly and decreasing choice it thru their huge market presence. Try to buy a tomato with flavour. Try to buy a ripe piece of fruit - not possible now.
Independent food producers cannot get into teh marketplace at all - they don't produce enough in consistent amounts to get intot he supermarkets and there are no independents left for them to sell thru
Try to buy a tomato with flavour
Hydroponics do that - not supermarkets. The need for more intensive farming means agriculture changed too. Your pseudo middle class angst is clouding your argument. You are harking back to a time that didn't exist.
Come to Gloucester Road in Bristol - the dream shopping street. Almost all indie shops. Still there if people want them.
To a point i concur with Teejatron. As a an independent retailer me self i welcome the larger stores in an area. They actually assist and encourage the specialist small shop. The bigger boys struggle to offer what the wee man does and as a consequence actually help in creating a niche for them to exist in.
Tesco will have no interest in selling ripe fruit TJ as you suggest - it will not be possible in their business model. The person who sees this as an opportunity will create a small outlet for this and hopefully make enough money to provide him/herself with a living and employment for others.
It stifles choice for sure inside the actual supermarket/large shop but help provide a gap for other products to exist elsewhere outwith this. make sense? We simply don't need 50 independent cheese shops for example, their aint enough people needing that much smelly cheese 😀
We know a large multiple are opening a new store in Edinburgh for instance (in our industry) and it truly excites me. It let's us thrive as a specialist retailer and sets us apart from them - we will be better off for it.
With regard to the original point - companies are essentially collections of people. I would like to think those people at the top of the board are still 'people' and have a sense of social responsibility and justice - it can be hard to reconcile the motives of profit and charity but there is a balance point you can reach. Perhaps it is marketing... who really cares? They are doing good and you know what, you don't have to buy anything from them if you don't want to.
Anyway, i have some poncy tea from a small aproned man run poncy tea shop to drink, I think i might put one on for druidh as well... heh
Tootall - rubbish - Its because of the way the supermarkets work that the fruit and veg is underripe and tasteless. the time from producer to purchase is longer hence they pick it underripe and refrigerate it. Independent greengrocers sell better flavoured fruit and veg.
I am not harking back to an ideal time that never existed. Its arguing about where we should be now.
TBC
If a big chain opens up next to you. Sees what you sell well. Gets the same products in and sells them as a lossleader ( as it can afford to do) how long until you go broke? Then once you have closed they then rack up the prices again.
Thats the supermarket model
Gets the same products in and sells them as a lossleader ( as it can afford to do) how long until you go broke
we is dealing with a super small market of chainrings, lubes, etc not key food staples like pasta, eggs and milk.
There is not the volume in the industry to permit this.
Plus, they ain't near us. MUCH nearer some other large retailers selling the same stuff.
Chat to you on Wed about it.
I was meaning hypothetically - thats what the supermarkets do to local retailers
My local high street is much busier since Sainsbury's moved there. We even have an indie butcher now to go with the indie tea/coffee shops (which do more business than the chains) and deli. During the summer some guy started selling fruit and veg across the road from Sainsbury's and did a roaring passing trade. In fact the high street is so busy again the Co-op have moved in.
I completely agree with TJ. This dominance by supermarkets is not good. Now purchase my meat from an independant organic farm/retailer (Laverstoke Park in Hampshire). Costs a lot more so eat less meat but it is so much nicer.
Long-term, we are shooting ourselves in the foot.
Its because of the way the supermarkets work that the fruit and veg is underripe and tasteless. the time from producer to purchase is longer hence they pick it underripe and refrigerate it. Independent greengrocers sell better flavoured fruit and veg.
No - you are wrong. The public no longer wants regional, seasonal food. The public wants all foods all of the time, so it moves further. However, it moves very quickly. If both shops are selling out of season green beans, they are coming from the same place. If both shops are selling tomatoes grown in the Canary Islands, they are probably both selling hydroponically grown tomatoes - the most common and efficient way of growing them. You might have an argument if you are talking regional, seasonal food. However, intensive agriculture and consumer demand are more to blame than big shop, little shop. Look at how those hothouse fruit and veg are grown before you talk about taste.
Too tall - sorry - that is simply wrong. The supply chains are not the same. The fruit and veg are not the same. The supermarkets insist on uniformity and long shelf life hence the under ripe tasteless fruit and veg
Where do you think they get out of season veg? It isn't local. Where do they get tomatoes from in December? The Netherlands under glass or the Canary Islands under shade.
We can talk about supply chains all night. If you want to. I do it for a living. If you want to pay premium for premium, you can. However, you need to understand where your food comes from and how it is grown.
And what do the Netherlands do to their fruit and veg?
So TJ - you're saying that there is a niche market out there of customers who want for tasty, ripe vegetables and fruit and are willing to pay for it.
C_G has pointed out that she buys from a small independent at higher price for exactly this reason.
So, basically you're killing your own argument, since if the supermarkets are not catering for this sector of the market, the opportunity is there for small independents to fulfil it and thrive, the only ones that will close are the ones who try and compete with the supermarket for the same custom.
No different from the "internet retailers killing the IBD" arguments that we've heard here a million times before!
cinnamon_girl - Member
And what do the Netherlands do to their fruit and veg?
Turn them orange.
totall - I do understand it.
Supermarkets demand long shelf life and ease of handling - so all the fruit and veg is under ripe. Independents with different supply chain and shorter times from producer to market don't so the fruit is ripe and nice to eat
Zulu -what a surprise you fail to see. Its not about niche premium. Its about diversity of retailers allowing flexibility and choice.
What we really need to do is to kickstart our tastebuds. Say no to irradiated food. Treat animals with respect. Eat seasonally.
Independents with different supply chain and shorter times from producer to market don't so the fruit is ripe and nice to eat
Tell me more. I'm interested to hear about this. Can you give me an example?
Farmers markets are the way to go. Local produce only. Who wants food that has been sitting in chilled warehouses for 6 months?
Local produce only? No fruit if you live in the Outer Hebrides then. You actually want to [i]restrict[/i] choice?
druid - I have tasted some delicious locally grown fruit whilst visiting the West Coast of Scotland. Surely it is easier to transport that to the Hebrides rather than it being transported possibly to England for warehouse storage then eventually to whatever supermarket it is destined?
In fact, for decades I visited Scotland on a regular basis and enjoyed some good quality tasty red meat as well as locally caught fish.
I am not arguing that the supermarkets have no place - I am arguing that there overdominence of the market reduces diversity and that the out of town centres suck life out of towns
At the risk of repeating myself it was very noticable in the netherlands that the town centres were thriving compared to here with independent shops - why - in main because the supermarkets have been restricted - no out of town shopping and no huge megastores.
Tootall ( thought you were military anyway?)- the tomatoes in my local greengrocers are a good example. they may come from the same growers but I doubt it. Same growing areas for sure but I thought the growers grew for specific markets? However they are packed in a box at the growers, shipped in the same box to the fruit and veg market, sold to the retailer who displays them and sells them in the same box. They are ripe and flavourful
because they are not handled so much once picked they don't have to be picked underripe to accept repackaging. Because the supply chain is quicker they are not picked underripe to last longer. thus they have flavour which you cannot get in a supermarket tomato. Its not a premium product as such and the price is comparable with the supermarket ones.
Cinnamon girl - Druidh is right there. Local produce on the isalnds would be very restricted diet. Mutton, fish and root veg - with oats and dairy
owever they are packed in a box at the growers, shipped in the same box to the fruit and veg market, sold to the retailer who displays them and sells them in the same box. They are ripe and flavourful
because they are not handled so much once picked they don't have to be picked underripe to accept repackaging. Because the supply chain is quicker they are not picked underripe to last longer. thus they have flavour which you cannot get in a supermarket tomato. Its not a premium product as such and the price is comparable with the supermarket ones.
You really do have a misguided rosy view of the world. Still no evidence you know the first thing about supply chains, methods of agriculture, where your small shop veg comes from or anything else relating to international transport and commerce. Supermarkets will carry several types of tomato, varying from no flavour to lots. You want less intensive veg, you pay for it.
TandemJeremy - MemberAt the risk of repeating myself it was very noticable in the netherlands that the town centres were thriving compared to here with independent shops - why - in main because the supermarkets have been restricted - no out of town shopping and no huge megastores.
All supposition. There could be any number of factors to explain the difference.
OK, an observation. I used to buy my apples and pears from a fruit farm in Hampshire. They used to sell some 'old established' varieties that are not normally seen in a supermarket. This was good. I don't want to be forced to eat Cox's, Gala, etc etc.
But they obviously could not grow sufficient quantities of these to sell to the supermarket. Win win for me - tasty apples with flavour provided I travelled some distance to purchase.
I did notice however in their packing area that they did in fact supply the supermarkets. But of course we had no idea of how long these would be sitting in a warehouse somewhere before being transported to a supermarket.
I've got too low a tolerance for whining and moaning on here tonight. However:
1) Supermarkets shaft farmers to make their stuff cheaper. You shop there (yes, YOU), and because it's cheap you have more disposable income that you can spend on bikes. I don't hear you complaining about that.
2)
Teh main reason why our town centres are such dismal place with no variation in the shopping
Our town centres are not all dismal places, by any stretch.
tootall - You will never see a tomato like that in a supermarket. Nothing to do with misguided view of the world everything to do with being able to taste.
Druidh - Of course there will be more factors but it is a fact they have a deliberate policy to restrict the supermarkets with the intention of keeping diversity in the town centres and they have vibrant town centres - there must be some link.
Been out riding for 2 days here have a post related to the OP title.
Our work has a company charity. It consists of basically the staff giving their time and money for the charity so the company can look good. The company does nothing for this. We did a charity bike ride last year - raising 85% of the entire amount raised and the MD would not even give us 50% of the time off for the trip and made us take our own hols for the trip. MD then threatened us that we were contractually obliged to pose for publicity shots for the local papers.
I dont think many companies do much that does not affect the bottom line of profits.
The result is LESS choice for the consumer. I have a choice of tesco, asda or Lidl - there are no virtually no independent food shops thus the small producer is also squeezed out. No cheese shops so I can only buy plastic wrapped mass produced cheese, no independent bakeries so no real bread is available. My local shopping area is poorer for the supermarkets. Choice is reduced
I have a choice of loads of locally produced cheeses and butters, and lots of local fruit and veg, meat and especially eggs. Where? Asda.
and fruit and veg and cheese that tastes of something
I love cheese, and I've had it from all over the place - markets, dairies, shops of all sizes. One of the very best cheeses I have ever had was made by a small dairy up in the valleys near me. I bought it from Asda wrapped in plastic.
You are coming up with some major rubbish on this thread. Let me point out something: Not all Tescos etc are the same. They sell different stuff depending on where they are. Scotland is famous for its population eating poorly, so perhaps the contents of your local big chains reflect this? (serious suggestion, not being arsey)
Molgrips - you must have some hell of an asda. Never seen one like that.
fresh local produce? My you are lucky.
my local asda has the same generic plastic wrapped stuff as every other supermarket. Very limited range of cheese as well. =
Edit - every supermarket UK wide I have been in is the same.
Double edit - I think it is probably about expectations and taste. I can tell teh difference.
