What's that all about then.
r u Glumpton ?
I think it's because no one in the book came from Nigg
redthunder - no I am not Glumpton.
Are you Penry, the mild mannered janitor?
So what are they going to call his faithful black lab before it gets run over?
[url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/its-pc-living-with-mental-health-problems ]Bheinn Dhun[/url]
My daughter corrected my singing of bah bah black sheep the other day. Apparently her nursery is teaching them bah bah White sheep.
It's part of a larger conspiracy to allow forum trolls around the world to have a little sex wee at the thought of all the fun they can have, unfortunately.........
j_me - this thread already has double the posts of the other one so therefor it becomes thee huck finn thread.
don simon - pelvic floor exercises should help with your incontinence - in the mean time try tena lady.
Probably for exactly the same reason that you felt you had to type the 'N word' on here.
I can see why the word **** shouldn't be used in a general conversation and wouldn't use it myself, but the fact remains that is is a word that had been used throughout history and hasn't disappeared from existence. In the correct context, there is no reason that 6 letters making up a word shouldn't be typed. I hope that my use of the word within this paragraph isn't cause for offence, as it was in a textual context only.
Whether or not is should be used in a book that was written when the word was socially acceptable (but not necessarily right) is a tricky one. In the context of keeping the text of the book historically accurate, then yes I believe it should, however I can see the argument for removing it, as it's being used to describe a race of people in a derogatory manner - should this be allowed in current times?
I can see this post causing me some grief, as I'm not sure I've explained my point very well, but I'll endeavour to explain should I need to.
A tricky one.
😆IanMunro - Member
I think it's because no one in the book came from Nigg
don simon - pelvic floor exercises should help with your incontinence - in the mean time try tena lady.
Are you calling me a troll? Shame on you!
But Twain used the word because he wanted to highlight the attitudes towards negros. Much the same as the Alf Garnett character. You were laughing [i]at him[/i] for his attitudes.
Don Simon is In Continent?
Well, he does live in Spain, so I spose it's technically true.
Who has decided this action should be taken?
Well, I think it is silly, I loved Mark Twain when I was a kid and I don't go around burning crosses. In context it is fine, in fact will likely add to the impact message of the book in contemporary culture.
However the hand wringing in the press is a bit silly and I reckon is just an excuse to use the N word and wind up both conservatives and liberals for extra bonus points. From my reading it is only some editions that will be censored, you can't put the words back in the box there are millions of copies of the book in circulation. Its not like folk are marching into libraries with petrol or anything.
yet!!!
They will once it drops below £1.30 a litre...
Slippery slope.
oldgit - MemberWho has decided this action should be taken?
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12126700 ]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12126700[/url]
Thin end of the wedge.
Agree with Druidh, Blazing saddles is another perfect example....
It amuses me that SOME people think that film was/is racist!!!!
I used to eat Robinsons jam and some of my best friends are...... Aaaah! Now I see.
The word was shocking then, but is shocking now in a completely different way.
Because it is in the original books it prevents millions of people being allowed to read them. The new edition means they can.
I dislike the use of the phrase "x word". It immediately places the substituted word in the mind of the reader/listener so what's the point?
Just checked the bookshelf, it's definitely still there. If I leave my door unlocked will someone come in and redact it?
No, use of that word doesn't prevent millions from reading the book, censorship does.
This is the classic liberal dilemna, I am against censorship but each case on it's own merits, I think the world would be better without the works of David Icke (the world is ruled by lizards guy) for example, but defend his right to say it and all that.
Anyway, there is far far worse stuff on t'internet and being shovelled down kids throats by their parents.
No, I don't think we should edit books in this manner: They are historical artifacts, and if we start editing them we are, in a way, editing history itself.
Edit: Why should the presence of the word "****" prevent
younger children reading the books? Surely this is an opportunity to educate the children as to the social and historical significance of this, and other, such words.
Nothing has ever been solved by sweeping it under the carpet.
Might as well burn them.
I do find this interesting and it makes me uncomfortable in my liberalness.
The Dambusters film - Gibsons dog was called ****, the signal the raid was successfull was "****". This is history and cannot be changed - but it does make me cringe every time I hear it
Mark twains book used the language that was in use at the time. Many other books of the ear did as well. I am not sure the book should be changed - but if it is unacceptable in american schools with "****" in it then maybe
burn who?
Apparently Guy Gibsons dog in the remake of The Dambusters, is maybe going to be called Nigsy or Nidge. He called the dog by it's name 12 times in the original film, we'll have to wait for the release to see what they decide to do.
There are lots of books with reference to ****s in them are they all going to be reprinted?
By the way anyone else have a golly as a kid? My mum made mine from a pattern in the 60s
The Dambusters film - Gibsons dog was called ****, the signal the raid was successfull was "****". This is history and cannot be changed - but it does make me cringe every time I hear it
Well given the other historical inaccuracies in that film and the fact that the name of the dog is [i]utterly irrelevant[/i] to the story it really doesn't raise and ire with me and marks those who complain about it as petty and small minded as those who initiated the change of name. Editing Mark Twain on the other hand is another matter entirely.
Seriously?TandemJeremy - Member
The Dambusters film - Gibsons dog was called ****, the signal the raid was successfull was "****". This is history and cannot be changed - but it does make me cringe every time I hear it
I wish Samuel Langhorne Clemens was still around to comment.
Seriously.
Would calling your dog **** be acceptable now? It makes me cringe to be reminded of the attitudes that used to be accepted without question
I was going to call my cat "Bastard" just for the sheer fun of calling him in every night - i was going through a Father Jack phase at the time.
Chickened out and called him Beans in the end. Didn't quite have the same effect.
Unfortunately he is now toast.
Do you cringe when you listen to Gangsta Rap of an evenings relaxation Teej?
It seems acceptable for a black man to call another brother a ****.
The thing that strikes me as being quite ironic about such offensive words, is that despite the fact they have historically been used in a derogatory manner, thus making them offensive, they are ultimately based on simplistic translations of various forms of language. Negro for example, simply means 'black' in some languages and is even derived from a latin word.
Actually thats nigga in the rap, That don't bother me but "Ho" does 🙂
Its the context that counts. Gibson is a childhood hero of mine - but to here the causal use of the word **** sets my teeth on edge. Acceptable tehn of course in a way it is not now
I don't say I am right in my reaction to this - but its my honest reaction and I thought it interesting to add to the debate - its about how politically charged words can become
Much of the power of [i]Huck Finn[/i] derives from the language - and Huck's dawning realisation that he must save Jim. Retro-fiddling with the text isn't going to achieve anything useful, certainly not in comparison to what Twain actually achieved as a writer.
Yawn. This was done the other day and I went to reply but ernie'd got there before me with much the point I wanted to make. So I'll make it tonight. Mark Twain is one of America's greatest writers and thus his books should IMO be taught in schools. However, how is a teacher supposed to teach it as a great work of historical fiction to a class of different races AND deal with the rights and wrongs of the word "****" being used. So for this reason, I agree with the censorship for school editions.
For the rest of you purists who are just crazy to read books with the word "****" in there, there are always unedited editions available for your enjoyment.
Good point, well made DD. Worth the wait!
Clearly we should also rewrite To Kill A Mockingbird, since it blatantly portrays black people as criminals!
Changing the past to suit the moral conventions of today is wrong on so many counts - if we change it, we are in danger of returning to it.
Removing the word in question is dangerous - we need to be constantly reminded that the fight for racial equality and acceptance in the USA, the world's supposed 'civilised and democratic' superpower, has only been (partially) won over the last couple of generations.
Context is everything - surely it's useful for kids growing up today to see things how they actually were, not as we wish that they had been?
However, how is a teacher supposed to teach it as a great work of historical fiction to a class of different races AND deal with the rights and wrongs of the word "****" being used.
Explain the context & ask questions:
Did Twain use the word himself in his own life?
Was the word used by everyone in society regardless of intention?
What other words were used to describe people of different races and why? When did the word become pejorative?
Was Twain aware that the word was offensive and placed it in the mouth of his hero purely to show that even those with good intentions can cause unintended offence?
All these things could be discussed to give context to the book.
If we don't talk about these things, they fester.
Pretending they never existed is even worse.
if we change it, we are in danger of returning to it.
Most of your post was funny but this was friction hilarious.
Most of your post was funny but this was friction hilarious.
Well go then DD, explain why! 🙂
Would you suggest a special version of 'The Merchant of Venice' with all the anti-Semitism removed?
What about Othello?
Should we delete all references to the Holocaust when dealing with WWII?
Perhaps we should rewrite everything we teach, in case anyone asks awkward questions about the beliefs and attitudes of our predecessors?
CAREFUL! You'll have the STW police ban you and you'll then be greeted with "You are banned for 24hrs nasty ****ing racist".
This happened to me when i wasn't even being racist!
For the rest of you purists who are just crazy to read books with the word "****" in there
Ooh, DD you big tease. I'll cross out the N word in my old edition... and achieve what, exactly? What about its use in [i]A True Story, Repeated Word for Word As I Heard It[/i]? Essentially, a dead white anglo-saxon male pretending to be an old black slave woman?
He was quite rude about the Irish on occasion. I'll start a campaign, just for you. 😀
Anyway, as a post-script to this thread: I keep on meaning to get around to reading [url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/may/24/mark-twain-autobiography ]this[/url].
(And the last word should always go to [url=
Tribe Called Quest[/url]).
[quote[Zulu-Eleven - MemberClearly we should also rewrite To Kill A Mockingbird, since it blatantly portrays black people as criminals!
Have you actually read the book? What the book actually says is that if you were a black person being tried then in the deep south of America you were unlikely to get a fair trial.
As for Wing Commander Gibson (VC, DFC and bar, DSO and bar) leave him and the name of the dog alone - it was a common name for dogs at the time (and it isn't now) and it's a fact - get over yourselves.
Are we now saying that Gibson was a racist and a bad person (which I don't think he was)? Does it matter anyway considering the debt we owe to him and his comrades?
As for Wing Commander Gibson (VC, DFC and bar, DSO and bar) leave him and the name of the dog alone - it was a common name for dogs at the time (and it isn't now) and it's a fact - get over yourselves.
Indeed. Lest we forget, Adolf was also a popular name, but now it is not.
The N Bomb has never exactly been a term of endearment.
Should the books be censored? I dunno. If left in, then I would hope that a good teacher would use it as an anti-racism discussion point, which would then be reinforced by the storyline. Kids will know the word before the curriculum teaches it to them anyway from films, music etc so it's not like it would be instantly added to their vocab.
Then again, it has been replaced with the word "slave" and if it really doesn't take away from the story and the message then why not? Also, I don't like the idea of black children sat embarrassed due to the language of anything taught in school. Undecided.
EDIT;
(VC, DFC and bar, DSO and bar)
FLIPPIN 'ECK!
He was quite rude about the Irish on occasion. I'll start a campaign, just for you.
Really. There's no need. I'm not sure you'd be up to it tbh. 😉
My daughter corrected my singing of bah bah black sheep the other day. Apparently her nursery is teaching them bah bah White sheep.
For why exactly??? That's not the blimmin words!
It doesn't even scan right.
EDIT;(VC, DFC and bar, DSO and bar)
FLIPPIN 'ECK!
Yes, quite. Bit of an understatement. Those were not handed out with the rations.
[i]Also, I don't like the idea of black children sat embarrassed due to the language of anything taught in school.[/i]
Well, as DD said, this is an entirely valid point - though I would hope that any Lit teacher worth their salt would teach the book appropriately.
But I just find the wider debate bizarre - as if changing the text of [i]Huck Finn[/i] somehow lessens the often-appalling reality of slavery-era America. Especially given Twain's personal beliefs and his tireless campaigning for social justice.
Really. There's no need. I'm not sure you'd be up to it tbh
No win, no fee - I promise! 😀
Rather than using the N word, could he not just refer to him as his "bro from another Ho"?
Yes, quite. Bit of an understatement. Those were not handed out with the rations.
No joking. I'm not really up on the RAF, I love the stories of individual courage; Paddy Blair Mayne and Tom Durrant are particular favorites. Darcy, you should be familiar with the former?
Darcy, you should be familiar with the former?
Embarrassingly, no 😳 Military stuff not really my strong point. Y'know me...hand wringing pacifist that I am 😉
Hey look, I'm not suggesting that we retrospectively censor every novel/play with offensive terms or that portray certain communities negatively. (yes Rusty, that's for your benefit matey before you make more silly suggestions) We live in more enlightened times. I'm sure that case by case common sense will prevail. And the more enlightened among us will decide what's best for the rest of you. 🙂
I studied the Merchant of Venus - at a time when anti Semitic jokes were bandied about quite freely. Did it make us worse? No. Did it reinforce a negative stereotype? Quite possibly, yes.
And the more enlightened among us will decide what's best for the rest of you
The STW mods can't be [i]everywhere[/i], mind.
Glad that was taken as it was meant. 😛
Glad that was taken as it was meant
I can't afford to get on the wrong side of either you or Backhander. I am returning to Bristol in a few months. 😀
Darcy, he played rugby for Ireland, the Lions and went on to be a founder member and eventually CO of the SAS. His antics are folklore even in the modern SAS. Possibly the hardest man to ever have come from these isles.
Noteeth, let me know if you fancy a (slow) ride or a fast beer!
he played rugby for Ireland, the Lions and went on to be a founder member and eventually CO of the SAS
Mark Twain was in the SAS?
Ta, Backhander. I should be back by summer - been away five years and suffering severe Bristol pub withdrawal symptoms...
Literature can only reflect the author's outlook and is often of it's time. Updating for modern sensibilities is fine if the context remains undiluted. Is the dog's name in the Dambusters central to the plot? Probably not, so why offend some of the class for the sake of authenticity?
Obviously if race or colour is the core subject matter, as in Huck Finn, Roots etc, sanitisation would likely be counter productive to the storyline, so leave well alone.