help pls
my mother is in bits, she works for an opticians, she is the person that does the pre screen tests (basic test before the proper eye tests etc)
her boss has been piling on the pressure for her to up her hours (3 days a week to 5) even though she is being medicated for stress, and repeatedly asked him to back off, though none of this formalised....
in a moment of madness she printed of historical info rather than carrying out new tests, to ease her load on a particluar day and allow herself to leave on time..... really stupid thing to do she is aware of this....
they have a proceedure to check this so it really was madness, and she was imediately caught.
now facing a formal proceedure and advised this is to be treated as gross misconduct (no surprise there really)
IMHO she is clearly going to be out of a job soon, she is suspended until later on this week when there will be a another meeting, but the question i would ask the stw knowledgeable are as follows:
is there any way to damage limit this?
will she automatically get an employment bad mark, or bad reference?
is it better for her to resign before she is fired?
will her "mitigating" circumstances in anyway help her? (mitigating being up for discussion tbh)
any advice welcome, she is meeting with the CAB on monday btw, anyone else she should try?
Hmm, unfortunately, she may have broken some laws, I'm not sure. What she did could have a serious effect on patients health, so it will be dealt with quite severely, I'd imagine.
If she was driven to this act because of pressure leading to her becoming ill, then she may have a very slim chance, but I'd be prepared for bad news, really.
She may have a case against her employer, for causing her to become ill, or not considering her health issues adequately. You need to speak to an employment lawyer.
will she automatically get an employment bad mark, or bad reference?
she won't get anything thing like that at all
Uplink que?
I thought if u got fired for gross misconduct this lead inevitably to this being communicated to future employers?
Might be better to resign, not looking too good for her really
Couldn't she have just gone sick when the stress got a bit much?
Although it doesn't help your mum, its good to know they caught up on this potentially damaging practice so quick.
she should have gone sick
best advice
You need to speak to an employment lawyer.
Perhaps she printed out the wrong information because she's stressed & overworked. Maybe...?
Lateral thinking...why doesn't she go to her GP and get herself signed off tomorrow for stress. She doesn't need to mention anything about the impending misconduct meeting. Then she can negotiate a safe exit.
Bananaworld I do like your lateral thinking, she fessed up immediately however.....
So she could get signed off (she has existing stress and Depression issues) even though she is in the middle of a disciplinary proceedure? ( I assumed they would just fire her if she did this....)
Oooh...I dunno mate. I've been self employed for years so not really familiar with the finer complexities. Somebody will clarify it no doubt.
TJ will be along soon enough to say she should have been in a union.
Who is she employted by, the optician or a local PCT?
In short what she'd done, whether error or deliberate, could have a significant effect upon someones health, so it's likely she will losse her job. Poosibly she needs to offer her resignation and discuss maybe a "neutral" reference for future employers, although she leaves herself open to the question of "why did you leave your previous job", especially if the reference mentions no reason for leaving.
Got a colleague who was sacked for gross misconduct, then reinstated after 8 months. Probably even harder for him to come back to work than to be sacked in the first place.
I think the bigger issue here is that her employer has been inconsiderate of her medical condition, if she is receiving treatment. I think there's possibly a case against the employer here, but I think it would need to be made by the Opticians Guild or whoever the governing/regulatory body is. For an employee to feel so under pressure they deliberately fabricate results, means this is a serious case.
She has acted wrongly. But there are reasons why. This needs to be addressed, in the interests of all patients. I would not want to be using an opticians where this sort of thing was going on.
Kick up as much of a fuss as you can. The patients, and your mum, deserve that.
My current and former employers both followed the HR laws to the letter when giving out a reference, ie date started, date left, role and days sick - so I would not worry about the reference.
If she goes sick, then that will but her some time to find a new job under SSP, but is delaying the inevitable (dismissal) unfortunately.
Morally, in my opinion the best thing to do for all parties is for her to resign. Depending on her relationship with her employers, assuming she has a good record they may well write her a neutral reference and part ways on good(ish) terms.
if the employer is aware of a medical condition such as stress they are obliged to risk assess the issue to manage the situation i'd speak with a lawyer sounds like the employer has not looked after thier employee and your mum make a bad derision due to her medical condition
apparently it is illegal for an employer to give a bad reference although not illegal to refuse a reference which is often seen as a bad one, please wish your mum the best of luck from the stw massive.
Shall I say it?
she should not resign. She needs to get real good quality advice - probably more than fromn a CAB volunteer. There is a defense to be made because of her stress - espeically if she is receiving treatment and the bosses have not been helpful
Look on the tuc site for advice - this might be counted as bullying.
a negotiated exit might be best.
good luck
My thoughts exactly.a negotiated exit might be best.
It seems that from what you have said that it really might be best for her long term health and mental state to resign. I say that purely because I get the impression that she is really disappointed with herself for what she did. If she does resign then she will always know that she did something wrong but faced up to it and took responsibility for it. If she fights it and wins I doubt she will ever feel in herself that she acted properly.
apparently it is illegal for an employer to give a bad reference
That's not [i]strictly[/i] true. As long as the reference is accurate and not misleading, an employer can say anything they want ([url= http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/Startinganewjob/DG_10026703 ]clicky[/url]).
jimB thanks for that i'll be sure to remember it.
disciplinary can be carried out in her abscence, so she can't hide from it, and speaking to someone in employment law is of little use if her companies disciplinary procedure don't allow for legal representation in a hearing
Paul - I am fairly sure she is entitled to representation at a dsiciplinary if she wants. She cannot be sacked if she is off sick - but that won't stop her being sacked once she returns from sick and she can be suspended without pay.
representative is allowed, but usually a work colleague or union rep, not a solicitor or outside legal expert.
You can be dissmissed in your abscense for gross misconduct etc, regardless of reason for abscence, so a no show or off with stress would be counted the same. An assessment would be carried out to determine if the employee was fit to attend the hearing. Usually by Occupational health or such like
Can we just forget my earlier advice then...gross misconduct on my part. Probably best she doesn't go on the sick then...
You mention future employment so i'm assuming your mum needs to work so have you considered the financial situation? If your mum resigns she won't be able to claim any benefits so she'll be financially better off on the sick and then if she is dismissed and whats the likelyhood of a new job at present? But if done that way things will more than likely get messy with her employer and bang goes any sort of reference.
I reiterate the advice about obtaining advice before making any major decisions. The fact that she has been treated for stress will go in her favour and it remains to be seen if the employers have catered for this i.e. what can they show that they have done to ease her workload?
See what the CAB has to say and take it from there.
sincerely thanks everyone for the advice!
tbh i can see her wanting to take the resignation route, she knows shes in the wrong and wants to do the right thing, I am just worried about her future prospects (shes got another 10-15 years before she retires and could use the money)
thanks again
What do you mean by pre tests? Do you mean the bit where you have to see how many lines you can read with your glasses on bit? If it is I can't see it has any bearing on someone's test at all so there's no risk to anyone's health. The only thing it might do is slow down the test as the base line measurement may have moved and they'll have to take time to get where they would have been.
Best wishes to your mum hope it all works out ok.
agreed
No idea of the profession, but does sound more of a conduct issue than a gross misconduct.
However, suspension isn't usually done in this matter.
What alleged breaches of the terms and conditions has she been suspended under? Usually, the disciplinary guideliness will state that any suspension letter will include these, also, was she suspended according to procedure?
[url= http://www.college-optometrists.org/index.aspx/pcms/site.Public_Related_Links.The_eye_examination.visual_field_tests/ ]Visual Field Tests[/url]
The tests can identify serious health issues...it's just a little bit important !
If your mum does end up with a bad reference just be creative with the cv and try to stay away from applying for jobs with large companies and agencies as they will probably do extensive back ground checks. If you stick with smaller companies they are less likely to ring for references and if it does come up you have a better chance to explain the situation, whos never made a mistake? Plus once you have the first job any further employer is unlikely to check past your last employment.
From what you have said she has been unlucky in a number of ways and it does sound like her employer was watching her every move waiting for an excuse to sack her because she wouldn't up her hours. Good luck with it all.
Just been through similiar myself. Don't resign will only make it worse. Face it head on and just be honest and accept that what you have done Is wrong then fight like **** for your job. Worked for me following gross misconduct for having a fight with my boss, which felt great and he is a tool! If they are a decent company they should be more interested in why this happened and it not happening again rather than just sacking her. Keeping the gossip down also helps I found the less people talking about it the less likely they are to make an example.
following gross misconduct for having a fight with my boss
Not very constructive but LOL 🙂
what deadlydarcy said.
Your mum has been clinically diagnosed as having stress. This is clearly linked to her job. Therefore the employer who has as duty of care for her has to tread very carefully indeed as Stress these days is treated the same as a disability. Even taking into account what she did (which was obviously wrong) if it could be proven that thay have ignored her problem and even exacerbated it, the employer could be in deep sh*t. As it is a disability, there are now unlimited fines for this & from what I can see, the bullying involved (pestered to work extra) would be proof enough. If the employer does what I assume it will do i.e. sack her, I can see her having a potential for a substantial compensation claim but you really need professional advice mate.
Good luck. T
Right been resisting this but gonna stick my oar in.
As an employer and as somebody who has fired people for GM before I suggest that she talks to her employer. For a small business firing people is pretty hard work.
The job is probably no longer viable now so she best accept that she's cocked up and time to move on. However her employer won't want to go through the rigmarole that is the disciplinary hearing and if they are a small business without a full blown HR dept then following the correct procedure can be a nightmare. My suggestion would be a let’s have a full and frank meeting.
Covering the following topics
[b]Mum[/b]
I’m not enjoying work at the moment there is too much pressure. You're gonna fire me I think that's unfair.
[b]Boss[/b]
You’re not the greatest employee in the world at the moment. I don't want you here and I'm gonna fire you but it's hassle I can do without
[b]Both[/b]
Let’s skip the whole GM thing, forget it happened it’s loads of stress for us both. Layers get both our money. Pay out my holidays & 1 moths salary. Agree to give decent references and I’ll move on quietly and put this one down to a lesson for both of us?
Best outcome for both parties
None of this is advice obviously, you may loose you home etc.
Constructive dismissal
http://www.personneltoday.com/articles/2005/07/26/30921/the-qualification-for-a-constructive-dismissal-claim.html
Employers are reluctant to give either good or bad references, for fear of being sued. Some large employers will do no more than state that are particular person was employed by them.
Just a small insight from the employers point of view, this 'pre test' will form part of the patients permanent record.
Opticians are inspected by the pct randomly within a certaain timescale, where they inspect the medical records of a number of patients. If this record with these details was inspected the registered optician could be 'struck off' and therfore no longer able to practice.
What your relative did was wrong, and could have put the livlyhoods of more than herself at risk, what do you expect her employers to do, say there there never mind or treat peoples medical conditions seriously and take action to makesure it doesn't happen again.....
Tiger6791 - I agree there are always two sides to a story but as an employer i'm sure you are fully aware that the lady can't sit down and have a full and frank discussion. I agree having that type of conversation would probably be the best way to deal with it as long as both parties are fair and reasonable which in this case is unlikely. The lady clearly didn't want to do anymore hours but was persistently pressured in to working extra days, why didn't he just employ another part time person? I suspect the answer to that is its hassle, she isn't doing what I want, shes deadwood, get rid and get someone else.
Best outcome for both parties
Best outcome for the emlpoyer not the employee. If you rely on that income to put a roof over your head, have no savings and do what you suggest you have that money to last until you find a job. If you can't find a job you won't get any benefits because you left the job voluntarily what do you do then? If you have no where to go you very quickly end up on the streets thats what. If the employee is in that situation who do you think has the most to lose. I've recently been in a similar situation myself and nearly ended up sleping rough, I can tell you its a big wake up call, very scary and a hard situation to get out of.
What your relative did was wrong, and could have put the livlyhoods of more than herself at risk, what do you expect her employers to do, say there there never mind or treat peoples medical conditions seriously and take action to makesure it doesn't happen again.....
In the first instance I'd have expected her employees to take note of the fact that she was suffering from stress and take the appropriate action to ensure that this did not affect her work, particularly if it really did affect the livelihoods of others. I do not expect her employers to make the situation worse by overworking her further which will inevitably lead to mistakes being made. If they now wish to take action to ensure it doesn't happen again they should also consider the role her manager has played in this.
Stress is such a tricky one. I think before deciding on a course of action you've got to establish whether the stress was caused by the boss piling on what would be considered by most people unreasonable pressure, or if your mother has problems which mean that she gets stressed by situations that a reasonable person wouldn't consider stressful, then choose a course of action that's most appropriate for her wellbeing.
In the first instance I'd have expected her employees to take note of the fact that she was suffering from stress and take the appropriate action to ensure that this did not affect her work, particularly if it really did affect the livelihoods of others. I do not expect her employers to make the situation worse by overworking her further which will inevitably lead to mistakes being made. If they now wish to take action to ensure it doesn't happen again they should also consider the role her manager has played in this.
right at the start of this thread it says not of this has been recorded by either party with regard to work, so did work really know about it?, Whilst work have a duty of care to employee's , employees have the same duty to inform employers of these same things
and tbh in cases of disciplinary the first words usually trotted out by the employee in question as a defence are 'stress', not too stressed to be signed off sick therefore not admissable in a tribunal.....
right at the start of this thread it says not of this has been recorded by either party with regard to work, so did work really know about it?
From reading the OP's description carefully I would say that she had mentioned her stress verbally to her boss. However instead of refraining from piling on the pressure, it appears that her boss carried on.
and tbh in cases of disciplinary the first words usually trotted out by the employee in question as a defence are 'stress', not too stressed to be signed off sick therefore not admissable in a tribunal.....
I'm not convinced by your claim that her diagnosed stress isn't admissible here. I'd recommend to the OP that he seeks advice from the CAB rather than follow any of this.
rightyho for those interested a bit of an update.
I sat down with her today to go through her paperwork and get an action plan for mondays meeting with the CAB (im going in with her)
it appears that she may have some precedent of stress at work.
18 months ago she reduced her hours from 5 days to 3, on grounds of stress.
She has had several absences from work for between several days and a week, with stress being the reason given.
I do not think she has formally stated that her work is causing her this stress (ie "I am off work because i cant cope with my job, and my manager is intimidating me" but then who would say that....)
She has regularly been leant on to work extra hours, even being asked to come in for "training" in her own time and without being paid for this, including being asked to work late, and through her breaks.
She has communicated her concerns verbally to her manager, and team leader but nothing formally.
Her new manager is known for hitting targets and widely thought to be a target person not a people person.....
The initial meeting following her misdemeanor, was called an investigation, she asked if she had anything to worry about and if she should bring a rep, she was told no, and not to worry about it.
following the initial meeting she was put back on the job for a week, doing the pre screens etc etc.
Her manager phoned her on her mobile during this week and asked lots of probing questions about her life, and issues she has going on (something he has never done before, he always evaded any personal chat with her prior to this....
Then she had the formal meeting, where she was suspended. and given some addresses of 3rd party advise centres and advised to bring an in house rep with her next time, she is not allowed to bring in a 3rd party (ie solicitor, or an angry son).
TBH I think she is screwed, she doesnt particularly want the job anymore (and certainly not following a long battle to get her reinstated) so i think the best way out would be a negotiated exit with minimal fuss, and a decent reference...
She needs that real advice - there are several things there that are just not right and give areas to attack on IMO. If she was returned to the job then she shouldn't be suspended now, the phone call was inappropriate, The bosses behaviour might well be bullying and so on.
A negotiated exit might be best - using the threat of a tribunal for unfair dismissal can be a useful lever - she should be looking for thousands of pounds not a couple of weeks wages
Edit - I think ( but am not sure) she has a right to a 3rd party there if her job is at risk