4 winters and drive according to the conditions. But mostly the latter 🙂

[i]a B road that she drives every day[/i]

familiar roads tend to be driven at familiar speeds rather than to the prevailing conditions

so this;

[i]she could have driven a more reliably gritted route.[/i]

Def 4 winters. The winter tyres are not just for acceleration/deceleration traction, but also for stopping the boot overtaking the bonnet....

well a lack of back end grip would have contributed to the back end whipping out. bags of sand aint gonna help

but mostly slowing down would have the greatest help.

franksinatra - Member

....Her car is a Peugeot 107 with winter tyres but only on the front.....

.....She described that back end as whipping out. The back of her car has no weight to it at all. Would a couple of sacks of sand in the boot help?....

I suspect these two statements are closely linked and have never understood this idea of only fitting winters to the driven tyres.
You give the front end much more potential grip in sketchy conditions than the rear end, in a car that is inherently designed towards understeer.

I'm not saying it would have prevented the slide/crash but perhaps would give the driver a fighting chance of regaining control if all four tyres had similar grip levels...

I wouldn't bother with the weight in the boot idea, but all round winters would probably be the best thing to go for....

One rule of thumb for safety in front wheel drive cars is more grip at the back. Then its harder to get into trouble in the first place, and understeer is generally easier to predict and deal with, and it tends to end in less fatalities.

So i have no idea why people fit half a set of winters and carry on as normal. It's illegal here. Full winters or you can't even put the car on the public highway.

Get some rears, and a couple of paving slabs won't hurt. Some neighbours do this, especially in older RWD cars, Volvo 940/60, as they have (relatively) little weight over the rear axle and it can be a bugger to get moving (even with studs). It'll make less odds in a 107.

As already said, giving the front more grip than the rear was possibly not the best idea as it would theoretically make the grip unbalanced.
Winter tyres are not infallible and it could be argued that they give a false sense of security leading to the driver going too fast for the condtions.

TBH she must have know it was icy when she scraped the windows this morning and maybe she should have been more cautious.

familiar roads tend to be driven at familiar speeds rather than to the prevailing conditions

To echo what's already been said - Garages will (should) put the better tyres on the rear. E.g., I took mine in in November to have its winter tyres put on, the two back ones from last year (about 5-6mm left on), plus two brand new ones (last years fronts were too worn to use again) - the new ones went on the back.

edit: too slow 🙂

On the farm we would always stick several bags of animal feed in the back of the RWD car if conditions were a bit tricky. Winter tyres weren't really a thing back then.

Apart from that: give yourself time and give yourself space. In clean dry conditions you should leave a two second gap between you and the vehicle in front, if it's wet then double that, if it's icy then double again. What this tends to do is ensure you drive more smoothly, sudden changes in direction and speed are inadvisable when it's snowy or icy.

Frost and therefore ice tends to occur in the same places: frost hollows (duh!) and bridges (the cold can attack from above and below) as well as water draining off fields and the like. If it's a regular route I'd expect any driver to remember these.

Driving lessons.

My Mrs crashed our car at the end of the road a couple of years ago on compacted snow. Winter tyres would have helped - we have them on the other car - but she took the corner too fast for the conditions.

Something I have been bottling up for 2 years now ...... 👿

How to Stop Mrs from crashing her car?

Tell her to take yours?

[quote=ghostlymachine ]Get some rears, and a couple of paving slabs won't hurt. Some neighbours do this, especially in older RWD cars, Volvo 940/60, as they have (relatively) little weight over the rear axle and it can be a bugger to get moving (even with studs). It'll make less odds in a 107.

There's a lot of benefit to putting weight in the boot with a RWD car, where you're often trying to get straight line traction. Rather less so with a FWD car, where the increase in grip is offset by the increased loading when cornering - arguably it could make things worse.

[quote="aracer"]arguably it could make things worse.If you are driving like Juha, probably.

Would full winters have helped or does it make no difference on ice

She span, that means the back didn't have enough grip but the front had more. Then think about which end the winters were on. That'll be your answer.

Before I say this, this is not aimed at just the OP's wife.
I cannot understand why people find it so hard to modify their driving behaviour depending on the prevailing conditions.
If its wet, slow down, keep your distance.
If its frosty, slow down, drive gently and leave more room than you'd normally.
The number of times you get tailgated in pissing rain or fog defies belief.
Are the average road users just turning into sheep crossed with lemmings?

Dare I ask who decided to fit Winter tyres to the front only?

There's a big difference between winter and Summer tyres on ice, as a rule of thumb I'd say half the grip on summer tyres. That gives any car with Winters front only the rotational dynamics of a spinning top.

Edit: in your wife's defence you get a feel for how a car is behaving and adapt your driving to suit. If it spins wheels or you feel the ABS under braking you slow down because there's obviously less grip. Your wife didn't have those warning signs because the car would have driven and braked fine in a straight line. The blame lies with whoever booby trapped the car.

ice tends to occur in the same places: frost hollows (duh!) and bridges (the cold can attack from above and below) as well as water draining off fields

I've been caught out by that last one before. Gently pootling along with a light dusting of snow falling onto a dry road. Unfortunately said dusting was enough to hide the sheet of slick ice formed from the run-off at the entrance to a field, right at a bend 😐 Cue the slowest crash in history as I majestically slid along the ice unable to do anything to prevent me eventually reaching the ditch 😆

Car after me did slightly better and ended up in the field instead. Even the recovery truck was struggling to get a grip despite having the metal feet down.

Then the postie came along in his van, drifted it round like a pro and carried on his way. 😳

Yes, firmer grip on the back end will stop the sliding out and ramming it into the bush.

Winter tyres on both ends is the best option. But I've done front end only in the past with all seasons on the back and it's very effective, as long as you drive appropriately. Which is not necessarily going to happen and if you don't, you're going to go through a wall backwards. So it's something that can work but it puts a bit of extra burden on the software... Essentially I used it to make the front wheels work better, rather than to go faster.

Which is a longwinded way of saying, put another set on the back. Or at least something that's good in winter, if not necessarily a "winter tyre".

Yes, firmer grip on the back end will stop the sliding out and ramming it into the bush.

Ooooh ! Matron!

buy her a 2.8i Capri

Fitting winters to the rear isn't going to prevent a car from sliding on ice, winters do NOT stick to the road no matter what...

However, they will help as will slowing down on potentially icy roads. As they will help, why not - I bet 107 tyres aren't the most expensive ones going!

I think the weight in the back is a non starter - I don't think it'll make the slightest bit of difference.

Gently pootling along with a light dusting of snow falling onto a dry road. Unfortunately said dusting was enough to hide the sheet of slick ice formed from the run-off at the entrance to a field, right at a bend Cue the slowest crash in history as I majestically slid along the ice unable to do anything to prevent me eventually reaching the ditch

I've done exactly that too, many years ago. I was probably only going at walking pace. Just managed to get sufficient traction on the grass to thread the car neatly between two road signs, then had to climb into the back to get out as both front doors were wedged shut!

[i]The number of times you get tailgated in pissing rain or fog defies belief.[/i]

One of my sisters drives to work along the A24 in Sussex. Officially the most dangerous stretch of road in the UK.

She frequently gets tailgated, people attempting overtakes on corners and having to swerve back in s they've not got enough room etc.

She drives one of the faster versions of a Mondeo estate but it's a complete bland mobile.

Crucially, she's also a Detective Chief Superintendent so the car's a fully stealthed up police car with hidden lights and sirens.

She finds people tailgating her are far more likely to drive at appropriate speeds for the road and conditions after a brief face full of blue lights.

That blue light thing is the super power I wish my car had.

Fitting winters to the rear isn't going to prevent a car from sliding on ice, winters do NOT stick to the road no matter what...

they are surprisingly better....and given that for the rear to over take the front - the front had some grip. theres a fair good chance she would have made it .

How ever on the whole i agree with your point - the amount of folk round my way that crash because they were goign too fast then exclaim"i dont under stand i had winter tires on"

You still gotta drive to conditions but give your self the best shot.

Winter's on the front only is asking for trouble, I know because i've done it and 360'd down the road as a result.

Some garages won't put two on only and I don't blame them.

4 winter tyres wouldn't be unreasonable.

Most drivers when faced with a car sliding on ice is to panic, which in turn leads to a foot full of brake pedal, closely followed by sliding backwards into a ditch.

Most of us don't drive in hazardous conditions regularly enough. So when the snow falls or there's ice on the road, gutter to gutter, we're out of practice so misjudgments happen. I would say accidents, but nearly all are avoidable if we just slowed down and adjusted our driving to the conditions.

buy her a [s]2.8i Capri[/s] ditchfinder - there I fixed it for you.

But in all honesty there is a reason 99% of cars (if not 100%) are designed to understeer, it is intuitive for a lot of people to brake when feeling out of control which it the worst thing you can do with oversteer (or less grip on the rear) as this will just pitch you into a spin!

She said it was like wacky races with three other cars off the road.

Sounds like a few people were caught out. What's the betting they were all called 'The Mrs'. Wahey! Eh? Eh?

Top Gear japes aside, glad no-one was hurt!

Thanks for all of the feedback, All of it useful.

She acknowledges that speed was a factor, I think this is very true..

familiar roads tend to be driven at familiar speeds rather than to the prevailing conditions

Same journey, same time, everyday, a degree of autopilot kicks in. I think we can all associate with this most of the time.

TBH she must have know it was icy when she scraped the windows this morning and maybe she should have been more cautious.

I defrosted the care for her before she left.

I’ve always put a full set of winters on her car, the last time it went in the garage to put the winters back on the garage refused to fit two of them saying they were the wrong size. An odd call as they fitted those tyres in the first place! Not an excuse, I should have just sorted it there and then. Anyways, new winters for the rear now on order through Black Circles and being fitted on Wednesday. Only £90. Its a shame it has taken this though to get me to sort it out.

Just in time for spring. (-:

Old boy made me try driving to work without touching the brakes once.

This skill made my driving much smoother and came in invaluable every time it snowed

Cars in ditches in the Borders. Takes me back to my youth 😀

+1 to what bigblackshed says: most drivers in the UK probably get one or two morning drives on snow [b]per year[/b], those in Scotland and upland areas of England and Wales will get a few more. Nowhere near enough to get any sort of competence in such conditions.

Thirty five years ago I did manage to write off my first car on snow - I was doing less than 20mph when it happened: off camber bend and a vehicle/wall interface.

Just in time for spring. (-:

Fleet manager here at work looked at this in detail and now leaves winters on the fleet all year round. There is only a tiny difference in running costs, wear and driving feel, but a significant expense in swapping over. I'm now following suit and leaving on all year.

Winter tyres ONLY ON THE FRONT? And you're wondering why she crashed?

[i]*shakes head in amazement*[/i]

Data says in Scotland and at peak driving times - winters all year is the better option.

Fleet manager here at work looked at this in detail and now leaves winters on the fleet all year round. There is only a tiny difference in running costs, wear and driving feel, but a significant expense in swapping over. I'm now following suit and leaving on all year.

I just run my winters on a spare set of steels. If I wanted new ones - admittedly for a Mk2 Golf - they'd cost me a massive £25 each plus obviously the cost of the winter tyres. Cost of swapping wheels is nowt and takes 20 minutes or so. Less practical for a fleet, but if you have somewhere to store a set of wheels, it's a whole lot easier than swapping tyres over.

Winter tyres ONLY ON THE FRONT? And you're wondering why she crashed?

No I am not wondering why she crashed. I know why she crashed. My question was how much of a difference winters make on ice.

Collective view seems to be that they help, would certainly do no harm, but may well have not prevented what happened today.

Thanks for you helpful comment though

I have spun a car with winters all round with studs on them (Canada) with a sack of grit over the rear axle.

You can spin anything. But there are some impressive videos of cars with winters all round braking/steering better on Ice-rinks.

No I am not wondering why she crashed. I know why she crashed. My question was how much of a difference winters make on ice.

Sort of answered already in a 'they not magic, but they do give you appreciably more grip' if you drive according to the conditions. I'm Peak District based and found that full winter tyres mean I can drive down the road headed towards Kinder Reservoir, for example, on a surface of compacted, thawed and refrozen snow ice that I could barely stand up on.

It doesn't mean I could drive down it at 'normal' dry road speeds, but with smooth braking, steering and acceleration, it all felt predictable and undramatic, no wheel-spin or sliding. There are a few videos on YouTube comparing grip of summer, all-season and winter tyres on ice which give a reasonable idea of the differences in grip on ice.

So as a load of people have said already, they're not magic and if you drive beyond the limits of the tyres you will lose grip and crash, but the limits of winter tyres on anything from cold wet roads via snow to ice are all appreciable higher, though the normal rules of physics still apply.

There is only a tiny difference in running costs, wear and driving feel

Really?

Comparing winter tyre wear with the traditional 15-20k miles on normal tyres might come out ok. But when you can get energy savers with plenty of grip and 50k miles worth of wear, I'm not sure. Interested to see the basis of this calculation if it were available (and it probably isn't or shouldn't be so don't ask!)

MUST have these 8)

[img] [/img]

Then she can drive twice as fast as normal before crashing!

4 x Michelin Cross Climates on my car and no intention of ever putting "Summer Tyres" on the car again.

Scotland's 4 day summer just does't warrant using tyres that work best at 20C

well here in Norway it is the law that all cars have a full set of winter tyres on from Nov - Apr ish

I actually use studded winter tyres on the 4wheel drive

It is incomprehensible to me that someone would only fit 2 winter tyres - utterly pointless

TBH she must have know it was icy when she scraped the windows this morning and maybe she should have been more cautious.

Dawn freeze, iffy shaded corner, living at bottom of hill and working at the the top etc mean that you do not have to have a frost to have black ice or normal water ice. I drove up our old outdoor centre drive (1km of 1/5 with corners) and even walked the top of it, no ice. 20mins later I took a minibus down, and bounced of the banks each side as it slid about 600m out of control.

But when you can get energy savers with plenty of grip and 50k miles worth of wear, I'm not sure. Interested to see the basis of this calculation if it were available (and it probably isn't or shouldn't be so don't ask!)

Personal experience of winters, all weathers and summers on three cars across 8 years of being in Scotland is that the winters/all rounds last *almost* as well as the summers if driven at normal speeds. I usually get 15-20k out of them on front of people carrier. I do wonder if you can get some low rolling resistance ones that last well - but like the winters, do you also trade some grip? I would prefer the security of all-seasons up in Scotland for our driving.

energy savers with plenty of grip and 50k miles worth of wear

I've got Conti energy saving tyres for the Summer. The wet grip definitely isn't "plenty" and improves each November when the Winter Alpins go on. I doubt the Contis will get to 25000km (I change at 3mm) which isn't much more than the Alpins.

Thing about winter tyre lifespan is that they basically stop being winter tyres way before they're worn out- the sipes wear out and the tread depth gets too shallow to really do the job on snow. But they still work as "just tyres"- in fact might get better. My current set are pretty much spent for winter use but they'll do me next summer too I expect.

I've got Conti energy saving tyres for the Summer. The wet grip definitely isn't "plenty"

I've had Nokian Hs and now have Goodyear EfficientGrip performance. The Goodyears are rated as having wet grip as good as non energy savers, but aren't anywhere near as quiet as the Nokians. Both tyres seem no more prone to ABS action or wheel spinning when I do brake and acceleration tests than the traditional non-energy savers. I have no appetite to try and get sideways on public roads but they don't give any concern when taking roundabouts as quickly as is acceptable.

EDIT: Goodyears seem ok in the reviews still:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/accessories-tyres/88483/goodyear-efficientgrip-performance-tyre-review

I doubt the Contis will get to 25000km

I took the Nokians off the Passat at about 50k miles because the rears had sawtoothed due to the broken spring. The fronts had about 2.3mm or so left, the rears about 4mm iirc.

Why are we comparing eco tires with winters. You realise they are totally different compounds that react to temperature differently.

You live in Wales it's a different climate for the most part to the OP.

Tyre life is very much route dependent. My most frequent journey includes the Col d'Aubisque (no I don't get sideways either). The Alpins wear very well under the circumstances, especially when compared with the Contis which are supposed to wear well and don't do much better. Increased tyre wear of the order of 25% less life isn't a reason not to fit Winters IMO.

I've got Conti energy saving tyres for the Summer. The wet grip definitely isn't "plenty"

In their defence I've driven down this in a good 12" of snow with those tyres.

https://goo.gl/maps/xcf8gZD7nz22

(it's a fair bit steeper and tighter than google makes it look)

Slowly slowly catchy monkey, drive according to the conditions and all that. Obviously if I'd had winter tyres and a STW general issue Octavia VRs I could have been making progress and drifted down it like Tommi Mäkinen . But equally I didn't end up in a ditch.

fresh snow is very grippy though.

its when its compacted down to 2 inches of hard packed ice that your tires play their part. and even then its the thin layer of semi thawed water on top that makes you go skitey .

What car, thisisnotaspoon? 12" of fresh snow turns anything without a corresponding amount of ground clearance into a snow plough that won't move even with Winter tyres and chains.

What car, thisisnotaspoon? 12" of fresh snow turns anything without a corresponding amount of ground clearance into a snow plough that won't move even with Winter tyres and chains.

C-max, 134 miles into a 136 mile journey, I wasn't for turning round and giving up! Shovel and carpet in the boot if I'd got beached.

I've just done my Dutch Driving Theory. Rules:

*MINIMUM tread recommended for winter tyres is 4mm

*The tyres should be fitted when the temp is below 6C and removed when the temp rises over that again.

*The stopping distance for winter tyres is HIGHER than summer tyres in good weather.

-------------
From memory - the best tyres should be on the REAR of a FWD car - better to stop than to spin out.

Winters tyres front, summer rear looks quite fun here!

Not so much on a tight B road in traffic tho

Yep, that video proves that if you drive dangerously with winter tyres on the front only, it's dangerous. I suppose the video of driving safely was less entertaining. But apart from the excessive speed, I'd rather be in that car than one with summer tyres all round.

recommended

should

Driver Training!

Teach her to correctly read the road so she can proactively manage her driving rather than sheep-along (tm) just following the car ahead!.

Most people i meet don't actually look at the road, let along read it.

Winter tyres might have helped in this situation, but there are 1000 other situations where they won't make nay difference (or you'll just be going faster when you un-expecidly reach the limits of adhesion.......)

This guy is good, very very good:

[url= http://www.reglocal.com/ ]RegLocal[/url]

Rules:

*MINIMUM tread recommended for winter tyres is 4mm

*The tyres should be fitted when the temp is below 7C and removed when the temp rises over that again.

*The wear rate for winter tyres is HIGHER than summer tyres >7c.

EDITED/reposted after checking in the book- if I'm going to try and quote something I had better get it right! I passed, but I didn't get 100% 😛

[quote="Edukator"]What car, thisisnotaspoon? 12" of fresh snow turns anything without a corresponding amount of ground clearance into a snow plough that won't move even with Winter tyres and chains.I've had it both ways, 30cm of fresh snow at about 0 degrees left me beached (with almost new studded tyres) as it packed down under the front bumper and lifted the wheels.
Over 50 cm of fresh snow at about -10, the biggest problem was visibility, most of the snow was going over the car. And packing into the radiator grill. Took me about an hour to drive the last bit from the motorway (ploughed) to the house (not ploughed)

Why are we comparing eco tires with winters. You realise they are totally different compounds that react to temperature differently.

You live in Wales it's a different climate for the most part to the OP.

We weren't - we were off on our own little tangent about energy savers 🙂 Not sure the old 'they are crap in the wet' is the case any more.

Crappest tyres I have had on a modern car were the OEM Bridgestone Turanza that came on the Prius. But for some unfathomable reason manufacturers put premium tyre labels on shite tyres for OEM use - leading to everyone then thinking that tyre is shite.

I do wonder if you can get some low rolling resistance ones that last well - but like the winters, do you also trade some grip?

Not IME no, as said. However you probably want the new Michelin all season jobbies.

Thing about winter tyre lifespan is that they basically stop being winter tyres way before they're worn out- the sipes wear out and the tread depth gets too shallow to really do the job on snow

My understanding is that winter tyres are not just about tread but also how they behave in low temperatures.

4 x Michelin Cross Climates on my car and no intention of ever putting "Summer Tyres" on the car again.

Scotland's 4 day summer just does't warrant using tyres that work best at 20C

Have pretty much come to that conclusion myself.
Energy savers are horrid in the wet in single digit temps.
Summer sporty tyres I found a bit better, but utterly unworkable once a little snow came along.
Still have some life in current tyres, but by next winter I expect to be on cross climates or similar.

Crappest tyres I have had on a modern car were the OEM Bridgestone Turanza that came on the Prius. But for some unfathomable reason manufacturers put premium tyre labels on shite tyres for OEM use - leading to everyone then thinking that tyre is shite.

FFS, if you're too cheap to buy four winter tyres, at least make sure you balance the front and rear of the car by putting the winters on the left side and summers on the right side!

But in all honesty there is a reason 99% of cars (if not 100%) are designed to understeer, it is intuitive for a lot of people to brake when feeling out of control which it the worst thing you can do with oversteer (or less grip on the rear) as this will just pitch you into a spin!

Not always the worst thing. Got taught a rather nice trick where understeer is induced whilst oversteer is starting using the brakes. Car is then steered with the brake. Not sure I'd want to try it in the road though.

*The tyres should be fitted when the temp is below 6C and removed when the temp rises over that again.

So winters going to work and summers coming home at the moment?

+1 for Bridgestone Turanzas being crap.

Goodyear all seasons on my car for Scottish conditions now and I'll never fitting "summer" tyres again. They mean the rare time I need to drive on snow is a non event whereas with the Bridgestones any white stuff made things dodgy no matter how smooth the braking and acceleration.

At 10k miles per year this is their second winter on the car. Still plenty tread. I'll get 20k miles at least on the fronts. Next Nov I'll check the tread and if needed replace 1 pair with the new ones on the rear and the rears swapped to the front.

So winters going to work and summers coming home at the moment?

In your case yes, in everyone else's: no.

Could have been dodgy badging

Afaik they all do this, but I will defer to anyone with actual knowledge.

It damages the public opinion of energy savers when they put shite versions on new cars and people hate them, but the aftermarket ones are ok.

There are an incredible about of RTAs on the rural road around here on the fens. Those involving other vehicles are generally larger more powerful vehicle driven by impatient drivers overtaking in unsuitable places. Those in ditches tend to be small hatch backs. The roads are generally covered in mud from October to March which doesn't help, why can't they develop a something that cleans tractor tyres when they leave the fields?

Afaik farmers are obliged to take steps to minimise mud all over the road, but many don't give a crap. But drivers are also obliged to take road conditions into account....

[i]Fleet manager here at work looked at this in detail and now leaves winters on the fleet all year round. There is only a tiny difference in running costs, wear and driving feel, but a significant expense in swapping over. I'm now following suit and leaving on all year. [/I]

We do this with my Mum's cars, all-weathers on it.

tbh I was having a conversation with our postie at work (I'm near Frank) and I was amazed that the Post Office here don't put all-weather tyres on their vans once the originals (or spec them upfront in the contract from new).

Seems a bit-short sighted IMO.

molgrips - Member

Crappest tyres I have had on a modern car were the OEM Bridgestone Turanza

Another +1 on this. They were OEM on my previous Ibiza & were rubbish....

I'd like to try Cross Climates, but they don't do them in my tyre size.

Turanzas normally get decent reviews though. The aftermarket ones are different.

I did my own bit of "research" commuting from Aviemore to Inverness. Every month had at least one journey when temperatures were below 7c. Full-time winters here too. It's not worth the cost/hassle of swapping over for a couple of months and having to store another set of wheels/tyres. Neither am I convinced that winter tyres are such an impediment when driving in UK summers at legal - and appropriate- speeds.