I don’t agree with immigration on this scale, it’s affecting mine and millions of white British peoples life all over the country.
Current levels of immigration are visible in the supermarkets, all those gaps in the goods on the shelves that's due to too few immigrant LGV drivers. If you don't agree with the current situation does that make you in favour of more immigration or are you prepared to go hungry one day a week in the near future?
Forgive my cynicism, but what have you actually changed by getting a labour candidate elected? You might want to go read Ernie’s account of Labour in Croydon on the Starmer thread.
I forgive you. Labour isn't quite a majority on the council but it's getting close. The Tories have closed all the children's sure start centres. If they can influence change in this policy I'll be over the moon.
Current levels of immigration are visible in the supermarkets, all those gaps in the goods on the shelves that’s due to too few immigrant LGV drivers. If you don’t agree with the current situation does that make you in favour of more immigration or are you prepared to go hungry one day a week in the near future?
Nothing to do with pay and conditions being driven down by a surfeit of labour. There are plenty of LGV drivers about, the problem is that many no longer will not work in the industry again due to poor treatment.
As for numbers of EU immigrants, during the Brexit debate it was the two million, over 5 million have claimed residence rights.
A ‘surfeit of Labour’ ?
We’ve been short of drivers for years.
@Bliss
Why is immigration a problem?
According to your comments on the other thread you believe anyone vaccinated will be dead soon anyway. Who’s going to do all the work?
We’ve been short of drivers for years.
I bet the highest paying companies aren't short of drivers
The UK has been short of drivers for years, there has been no ‘surfeit of Labour’, we were scraping by. And now we’re not even managing that, because demand for drivers has ramped up in other European countries, and we made it clear to many of our drivers that they’re second class citizens if they stay. Some companies will be able to poach drivers by paying more, but that won’t give us more drivers in the UK, not this side of Christmas anyway.
surfeit of labour
And
We’ve been short of drivers for years.
You could both do with backing these conflicting claims up tbh.
Biggest driver I’ve found in the first couple of articles was 30000 cancelled tests and overrun training centres as a result of some pandemic.
There is at least this https://www.commercialfleet.org/news/truck-news/2015/11/23/hgv-driver-shortage-at-crisis-point-as-critics-question-government-steps-to-address-issue
A majority of transport managers also anticipated a shortage of drivers in the near future, with most blaming retirement as the greatest contributing factor. This is consistent with the number expecting to retire in the next five years, which is highlighted in figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) that show almost two-thirds of drivers (62%) are 45 years or older.
Which does at least back up the “years shortage” being from 2015. But goes on to blame insurance as a major barrier to recruiting
One of the major challenges, highlighted by Commercial Fleet in May, is creating opportunities for younger drivers, given the prohibitively expensive insurance costs they incur.
My dad used to drive for Iceland on the weekends. His hourly rate has only just been supparsed with the latest increase of wages. He last drove 20 years ago!
Another good thread derailed by reaction to a troll.
A repulsive racist troll nonetheless, but the result is the same.
If you really want get active in politics and don't want to join a party just do some groundwork and stand as an independent candidate for your local council
There are neighbourhood planning groups you can elbow your way onto
FOIA request information and develop ideas
But be careful, local politics is brutal https://manchestermill.co.uk/p/the-poisoning-of-oldham-politics
But goes on to blame insurance as a major barrier to recruiting
It is/was. As the newly qualified driver on this forum was sadly finding out. I’d imagine that the gov relaxing hours/rules isn’t going to persuade insurers to reconsider that situation right now either.
If you really want get active in politics and don’t want to join a party just do some groundwork and stand as an independent candidate for your local council
You can be active in politics without standing in elections. Politics is about real issues that affect real people, but more often than not political parties and legislative bodies prevent and delay action and become obsessed with the mechanics of politics rather than focusing on issues and solving problems. I know loads of people who do all sorts of volunteering and grassroots campaigning and I genuinely believe they achieve far more than most politicians do. You're not going to change the world debating procedural points of order in a council or political party.
Cameron’s Big Society. It doesn’t solve the big questions though. Who runs your councils, and your governments, really matters.
Cameron’s Big Society.
No it's not. That's a perfect example of what I'm talking about, a politician attempting to take credit for the good stuff that happens at grassroots level which they have bollocks all to do with.
It doesn’t solve the big questions though.
And politicians do? Do I need to point to all the examples where mainstream politics has utterly failed?
Cameron’s Big Society. It doesn’t solve the big questions though. Who runs your councils, and your governments, really matters.
You will not change the politicians unless society has changed. Do something good for your society and the politicians will follow. Gay rights didn't come about because of politicians, it cam about despite politicians. Campaigners and brave people who came out despite the crap they got proved by example there was nothing wrong with being gay. Slow society understood and only after that did politicians follow. Change from the root up is the most effective. Do what you can for your local environment. It will take years but it can be done. Politicians always reactive and largely incompetent.
The first step towards gay rights occurred in 1967 with an Act of Parliament which decriminalised homosexuality.
The first step towards gay rights occurred in 1967 with an Act of Parliament which decriminalised homosexuality.
absolutely. There's an endless list, I dunno, equal pay. Minimum wage. Maternity pay. Parental leave. Health and safety at work. Race discrimination, equalities, civil partnerships.
Sure you can start a nice community coop and be good to your friends and neighbours etc but there are limits to what this can achieve - your or your business might do this stuff but plenty of others wont. Sometimes you need to change to law to achieve change. It takes years sometimes for public attitudes to actually catch up with legislative change.
All this depressing 'government doesn't matter' or 'they're all the same' bollocks is instantly disprovable and is effectively campaigning for the Tories.
but why did that happen? To me its a lot like fashion, technology etc. What you see in the shops is behind what is happening on the ground.
I'm not saying politics has zero effect, but that it lags much more than it leads.
All this depressing ‘government doesn’t matter’ or ‘they’re all the same’ bollocks is instantly disprovable and is effectively campaigning for the Tories.
I'm not saying government doesn't matter just that it frequently lags what happens on the ground. Also you have to be honest on where you can make a real change. Unless you are the type of person that is very good at making connections, getting into places of political power then your effort is probably better placed on doing something that will contribute to making your local environment better and inspiring others. All the low level political stuff is echo chamber back slapping and doesn't do anything on the ground.
I’m not saying government doesn’t matter just that it frequently lags what happens on the ground.
On things like attitude to homosexuality (which sounds increasingly anachronistic) sex and race discrimination, and looking at major social attitude surveys, you see the exact opposite. Groundswell of public opinion lags the legislative change. I agree that changing the law is not sufficient to cause societal change, but it's often a necessary condition.
Anyway, governments, laws matter. Don't leave this to the Tories to look after.
On things like attitude to homosexuality (which sounds increasingly anachronistic) sex and race discrimination, and looking at major social attitude surveys, you see the exact opposite.
This is rubbish. Attitudes to gays/blacks/women didn't change because of politicians, it was the result of years of struggle and campaigning by people at the grassroots, just like women's emancipation and workers rights. The politicians may have jumped on the bandwagon and enshrined these things in law, and no one is complaining about that, but the changes happened because they were forced to adopt them by changing attitudes in society.
Almost all progressive change is a result of action from the bottom up. There are exceptions, but the general rule is that politicians, political parties and the governments they form are reactionary forces which usually obstruct progress.
I'm not arguing against activism. I am saying that to enable women to vote, people not to be imprisoned for being gay etc requires govt action, broader social acceptance having followed. But for, I dunno, reforming social care as is so badly needed, you think all the lobbyists pushing government are on the side of the angels? Does it really not matter what sort of government we have? Anyway, I've made the same point too many times now.
Oh dear, I find myself agreeing with everything TheBrick and dazh are saying.
I think I'm going to have to go for a lie down.
Does it really not matter what sort of government we have?
It depends on the nature of the government elected (obvs). Had Corbyn been elected it very much would have mattered. It mattered when Trump was elected for the opposite reasons. Thatcher and Reagan too. But if the choice is between centrist liberals like Blair, Cameron, Major, Brown, and possibly Johnson etc then no I don't think matters very much at all.
Even when radicals find themselves in government they still have to battle the conservative establishment forces which wiill water down or obstruct the changes they want to make, which reduces their impact and makes it matter less than it should.
This is rubbish.
It really isn't imo. johnx is right but so are you dazh.
When comes to progressive change then indisputably the proletariat lead but the lumpenproletariat follow.
Every great social reform of the last hundred years which has benefited ordinary working people and changed their lives in a very real and meaningful way has started in the same way.
Whether it was the creation of the NHS, decriminalisation of homosexuality, race relations act, health and safety at work, equal pay, whatever, they typically started in cold draughty room somewhere with someone standing up in a trade union branch meeting to move a resolution which most people would have thought never stood a chance in hell of ever becoming law.
That resolution when passed would be then sent to the Union's regional conference, from there to the national conference. If support continued it would to go to the TUC conference, if it passed that it might end up as part of a composite motion at a Labour Party national conference.
If it survived all those hurdles it would become official Labour Party policy, and then the real battle would begin.
As you quite rightly say Daz "the general rule is that politicians, political parties and the governments they form are reactionary forces which usually obstruct progress".
Progressive reforms have always been the result of intense pressure applied by the trade unions on cautious, conservative, reluctant, Labour governments.
Finally on day, many years after that trade unionist stood up in a branch meeting to move a resolution, the reform finally becomes law.
Whilst it is the organised working classes which lead progressive reforms it is the legislation passed by governments which leads public opinion among the non-political and unorganised public. There is no doubt that reforms have helped to change people's minds.
There's the small matter of Beveridge. His class. His background. His legal, academic and political careers. His writing. His ideas.