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Yep, the owner of the flat upstairs has started letting their flat on AirBnB. As you can imagine this is not good, late night (well, all night) noise, lights left on/off, random car parking in the drive, the list goes on.
It was unannounced, but it's only taken a week to figure out what's going on, find the listing etc.
I think/hope I have a fairly long list of measures which will persuade them to stop, it's one flat of 4 in a converted house, the other two owners are equally pissed off, and we already have a fairly long list of lease and insurance issues to present. I'm starting with a reasonable email, along the lines of 'it's just out of order and there's no way she would live below it, please stop'.
I'm sure the deep font of STW knowledge must have some experience of this, so interested if anyone has similar experiences to share? Don't share them if it didn't result in stopping it though please!
I’m starting with a reasonable email, along the lines of ‘it’s just out of order and there’s no way she would live below it, please stop’.
You're hoping that someone who didn't bothering informing her neighbours what she had planned and is making money out of it is going to be reasonable?
Good luck with that.
depending where you are your council may have rules on it. If a Reasonable email does not do anything and I doubt it will that would be my first port of call along with checking leases etc ( If leasehold)
No idea on the legality etc - someone else need to help with this.
Assuming it's all legal.....
It's a tricky one imo. If I was the person letting the flat through airbnb I'd hope you wouldn't mind. Same as if I was a long term tenant. But there are plenty of folk that would be a rubbish tenant and a rubbish short term airbnb renter. Imagine a rubbish tenant 24/7 as a very real alternative....you could be a bit half glass full about it and think at least it's not all the time!
As an aside - if she is renting it now what was going on with it previously? Was she in it, a mostly absent dweller or did she long term lease it? Are you comparing a now full flat to a previously basically empty one? If so it would be worse living there regardless of airbnb or anything.
Is there anything in your gift you can do to make it better. Improved signage in the car park, signs on switches etc. Are there any reasonable measures she could add to the flat welcome info that could make your life better?
Good luck with that.
Yes, I know. But I'm a reasonable person.
first port of call along with checking leases etc
Yes, this is exactly what we're doing.
Imagine a rubbish tenant 24/7 as a very real alternative
Yes, but it's generally easier to deal with this as the rubbish tenant isn't going soon. In the space of a couple of weeks it's been a succession of rubbish tenants. (Indeed, in many ways long term rentals are the best situation - most are fine, and you can probably persuade the flat owner to kick them out at the end of their tenancy, not so with a flat owner, and an unreasonable AirBnB tenant are leaving tomorrow so why should they gaf?)
if she is renting it now what was going on with it previously?
It's her second home, no doubt referred to as her 'pied a terre'. She has spent about a 1/3 of her time here til now.
The point really is that standard domestic owners and renters have lived up there for years - odd bit of noise of course, but it's always just been a question of a knock on the door, can you turn it down please if it's too bad. Most people live similar lives where it's usually maybe weekends etc, so it's never been a problem. It seems that when let as an AirBnB in a city (Bristol) it attracts a holiday/party clientele, not someone intending to live there, with entirely predictable consequences.
Is there anything in your gift you can do to make it better.
I have thought about this - but as above, fundamentally I think it will always attract a hotel type crowd, in a building that most certainly isn't built as a hotel, in some ways worse as it's big enough for loud groups of mates too... (And yes, clearly I would have expected them to think about this before whacking it on on AirBnB, but...)
Speak to the owner first. Ask what policy's they have put in place with their guests, house rules, quite times etc. ask for a copy and email the owner every time a guest brakes the rules.
Airbnb is great, but if an owner lives away from the property which has neighbors it can be a mare.
If no joy, strap two speakers to the ceiling and alarm call every guest at 5am.
As a responsible AirBnB owner my advice would be to do all you could to persuade the guests to leave a negative review. A run of negative reviews will really hurt. There are of course other platforms, but it would be a ball ache to switch.
I'm sure you can be creative with being persuasive.
You use your flat as a home? To actually live in? How quaint...
Joking aside, I've actually thought of AirBnB'ing my flat at the weekends. If only to get away from the noise of power tools/building works running all weekend. "Oh, sorry if the chainsaw has disturbed you but we must cut logs for the logburner all day Sunday as we both work all week...". Makes my teeth itch, everybody doing up/flipping houses/converting houses into flats/flats into houses/every single shop getting turned into a bloody coffee shop...
Gonna stay in my peaceful unit on an industrial estate at the weekends and let my flat out as a party venue. I'll probably get an asbo within a week. Seems you can be as antisocial and selfish as you like in some ways, but not in others.
Sorry for using your thread as a ranting post OP. I feel your pain tho.
Rent your place out as an air BnB too. Use the profit to rent a nice house
Any common spaces where you and the other residents could stick up a load of official looking notices about quiet times etc?
Thread is useless without links.
What I will say is that whilst anti-social behaviours isn't on you can hardly complain about them parking in the driveway. Unless you'd prefer them to park across it.
I think/hope I have a fairly long list of measures which will persuade them to stop, it’s one flat of 4 in a converted house, the other two owners are equally pissed off, and we already have a fairly long list of lease and insurance issues to present. I’m starting with a reasonable email,
Check what your local councils rules are - some local authorities don't allow apartments with shared access (communal door and hallway) to be used as short term and holiday lets. In Glasgow its certainly the case - they actively pursue it as a policy, and issue enforcement orders. They'll also be wanting Business Rates.
If it's an old house split into flats do you collectively not own the leasehold? When I lived in one in Farnborough it was a leasehold held by a company in which we were all directors. Not only did we pay into a maintenance fund but we could set the rules at AGM. Mind.you not sure where we stood.if someone flatly refused.
1. Rent it yourself for a couple of nights.
2. Trash the place.
I have thought about this – but as above, fundamentally I think it will always attract a hotel type crowd, in a building that most certainly isn’t built as a hotel, in some ways worse as it’s big enough for loud groups of mates too… (And yes, clearly I would have expected them to think about this before whacking it on on AirBnB, but…)
Have a look at the listing and see what they are offering in this respect. I'm heading off to a cottage on the islands tomorrow (humble brag). Thats via airbnb. It only has one bedroom but also says "The listing can accommodate a gathering of 25 or more attendees" - exactly how it can accommodate them I'm not sure.
So its worth understanding what expectations prospective guests are being given.
What I will say is that whilst anti-social behaviours isn’t on you can hardly complain about them parking in the driveway. Unless you’d prefer them to park across it.
Yeah, I should have been more specific there. There are allocated parking spaces, in the front garden, with a pathway up the middle to the front door. If they're used, all is fine. But the car was parked across that pathway almost completely blocking foot access to the front door.
Thread is useless without links.
Yeah, I know, but I'd rather keep it general in case it all turns nasty!
was a leasehold held by a company in which we were all directors.
Yes, it's exactly that, and with 3 of us being 'against' the AirBnB there is hope. That said there are clauses in the lease and articles which are intended to prevent removal of rights etc, and of course leases etc are all just legal opinion until tested in court which obviously I want to avoid.
Check what your local councils rules are
Yeah, unfortunately there only seems to be talk of regulation in Bristol - no action.
As you can imagine this is not good, late night (well, all night) noise, lights left on/off, random car parking in the drive, the list goes on.
It was unannounced, but it’s only taken a week to figure out what’s going on, find the listing etc.
So you are basing your upset on one or two sets of tennants? I’d not be looking at how to stop (she won’t, you’ll end up in a battle) but how to constructively guide them (visitors and Airbnb operator) to a sensible solution. E.g. how can you sign post the parking better; how can you make this appeal to workers or families looking to be in Bristol rather than Parties etc. However just because you’ve got lucky with neighbours before doesn’t mean a long term tennant is going to be better.
Well for a start move the parking signs so their's wont block the pathway. Then think how to sell this to her so she isn't looking to lose some hundreds of pounds a week.. just because you're not used to having anyone upstairs more than a third of the time isn't going to do the job.
You can go the nuclear option but be prepared to regret it later when you get zero cooperation on anything
given what you said about the leasehold on the building then the other 3 should be able to stop this - there should be clauses in the lease agreement
pwersonally I would warn her and ask her to stop, then in parallel both go down the legal route and making the stay for the renters unpleasant - early morning noise is a good one.
I bet she has not declared it to the mortgage company or for tax either. shop her to both. Most air B&Bs do not run within the law. Edinburgh was playing a game of whack a mole stopping them
making the stay for the renters unpleasant – early morning noise is a good one.
Why not stick to the person responsible for letting an unsuitable property as a holiday apartment, rather than targeting people who legitimately rented a place for a holiday ?
Because if they leave bad reviews it will destroy the "business" Yes its harsh on them but no one using air b&b should be under any illusions what unethical and often illegal cesspit it is.
90% of air B&Bs in edinburgh are illegal
Another thought - is the flat up to standard for renting? Again in relies on what your councils regulations are but its usual to require full interlinked fire systems, all gas, electrical and fire checks, proper fire doors etc etc. Report it to the council
Turning the place into a party flat is a grade A dick move. Plus the whole thing sounds about as above board as that basement poker room where I lost all my money the other weekend.
Good luck.
but no one using air b&b should be under any illusions what unethical and often illegal cesspit it is
Well I have used airb&b twice, and both times we stayed in lovely cottages in the middle of nowhere and had a great time.
Not sure where I should have spotted the "unethical and illegal cesspit" vibes, as they were not all that obvious.
Head in sand much Neal?
Do you really not know what sort of a place it is?
there are few / no controls
No one checks the building is up to the correct standards, No one checks its a legal rental etc etc
No different to many other short term letting portals that exist and existed long before air b&b.
Not from what I know. Others run checks on suitability of the buildings and are they to the right standards
i was going on a lads weekend and they fpound an air B&B. I asked them to check for the correct certificates for short term letting. the owners had none. We went instead to a place from another source that was legal
You need to go full Michael Keaton from Pacific Heights on them.
1. Rent it yourself for a couple of nights.
2. get key cut.
3. Let yourself in and trash it after every visitors departs.
Let yourself in and trash it after every visitors departs.
That is pure evil but sheer genius.
Sure TJ - but 84% of statistics are just made up....
Not from what I know. Others run checks on suitability of the buildings and are they to the right standards
Which sites are those ?
Which sites are those ?
I don't remember but I looked into this a year or two ago and I was astonished how little management and protection you got from air B&B compared to other sites and how much more air B&B charged
More than 7,000 entire properties are being offered for rent in the city on Airbnb – rather than a spare room in a house – but fewer than 35 properties in the city have applied for planning permission to operate as a commercial business.
An investigation by The Times highlighted that in a sample of 150 flats, more than one in ten did not report a smoke alarm or carbon monoxide detector, and a further third only had a smoke alarm.
I don’t remember but I looked into this a year or two ago and I was astonished how little management and protection you got from air B&B compared to other sites and how much more air B&B charged
That's why I asked. We looked at which sites to put my folks place on.... It's not on air BnB because their back side tools are a bit shite when it comes to room management. But as for believing any of them come out and vet your place you'd be very surprised.
At best they ask you to send in paperwork.- easy to fake if you were so inclined.
As for the rates..... Air BnB ain't all that high compared to others - some of the more boutique ones are higher and offer no better protection. They mostly all self regulated based on reviews.
I was dealing with an agent and its a while ago but some of the sites wanted to see the official paperwork ie safety certs etc from my memory - and air B&B were significantly more expensive
they are shysters - look at their response to that scotsman article
Airbnb are cheaper from a hoast perspective than many of the others - booking.com etc. Airbnb fees to the guest are high, but also comparable to other sites.
Our airbnb has been cloned twice on other sites - screenshots of our photos on Airbnb and some general information but no details. People actually booked through them (booking.com and some glamping site) paid the money, no further communication and then turned up - once during lockdown and one after. I'm pretty sure no sites ask for any paperwork or even if the property exists.
Ours was targeted because its linked to our village shop, which we also run, so if you Google it everything looks good.
Airbnb is just an accommodation search engine ultimately.
We stayed in an AirBnB in Edinburgh last summer for the night, fairly early on it dawned on us that the woman that owned the flat was sleeping in her car whilst we were in her flat 😑
The next night we moved on to a lovely log cabin in Inverness, when we got there, it was one of those posh garden 'home offices' in someone's back garden, on a housing estate, complete with barbed wire on one of the surrounding walls!
Tbf we had a great time.
What I don't understand is how after 10 years this gov't still has nothing on the table to regulate this industry. It seems in no one's interest other than airBnB to allow it to continue, hell even the people doing the lets could probably do with seeing some regs come in as their income will fall as numbers grow otherwise.
Its not like they don't have a precedent in terms of the legislation, all they need to do is extend it to cover this type of letting out.
some councils are doing something. Scottish parliament is also looking at the issue
I've stayed in AirBnBs all round the world. I think it's great? Found lots of places that were good when I couldn't afford a hotel.
I've also rented my place out with it. Rented the second bedroom which allowed me to afford to eat while studying my masters.
Am now renting the whole flat out as I've moved in with my girlfriend at her place. I don't think it's dodgy or unethical.
My flat is in good condition - after all, I've lived in it for twenty years! I've got it up to HMO standards with the certificates etc and all the linked fire alarms etc.
My building is in the Edinburgh old town, 50% owner occupiers, 50% rented out to students for a year at a time. All my neighbours know I'm doing AirBnB and have my phone number if there are problems. They're all happy with it - they know I'm responsible. I do all the factoring for the building, sorting out repairs and I've been painting and cleaning the stairwell myself for 20 years.
I'm happy with AirBnB's platform and their percentages.
Doing AirBnB lets me use the flat myself if I want a night out in town, I can block it off to let friends or family stay if they're visiting. Plus, if I fall out with the girlfriend I don't have to go live in my campervan!
As far as regulation goes, bring it on! I'd be happy to do that. It would also be good for me to get a license as if you get in at the start and they limited numbers then it limits competitors.
So, just as a counter-point to the anti-airbnb feeling on here, it can be a good thing.
Do you have planning permission YGH? Are you are registered landlord?
Yes it can be done well for an individual but the effects overall are not benign hence Edinburgh looking to regulate strictly
Do you have planning permission YGH? Are you are registered landlord?
Neither required in Scotland for short term holiday let's from day 1 - planning permission only required once you go over 90 days in a year let and air BnB won't let you rent after your 90 days is up till you show your planning.
Again easy to fake but the control is there and you'd have to actively.circumvent it.
My favourite air BnB was someone's caravan in their back garden in central Vancouver.
Have also stayed in a basement studio under a 3 story house in mission San Francisco
And a studio under someone's garage in Tahoe with the most awesome deck which basically looked out over the lake due to the house /garage being built into the side of the steepest hill ever....
I thought that had been changed in Edinburgh?
Well the news yesterday seems to think they are pushing hard for it. Although they have been for a fair while have they not
Lots of illogical hysteria about Air BnB on this thread. They are no better or worse than the other platforms (Booking.com, TripAdvisor, VRBO etc).
You don’t need planning permission for a holiday let. Edinburgh council is proposing this but it’s still at the consultation phase. The Scottish government is looking at bringing out a registration/ licensing scheme akin to the landlords system in Scotland. That tome would be a good thing it’s currently at the consultation phase.
Commercial rates are required if you rent your house/flat out as a holiday let. This is actually a saving as you get the small business supports scheme 100% discount if you only have a few holiday let’s.
Air BnB is just an online platform like any other. They have safeguards but ultimately it’s the unscrupulous owners who are gaming the system. All the holiday let’s I have stayed at were excellent but maybe I have just been lucky.
Air BnB is just an online platform like any other.
it really is not. Its much easier to "game the system" using air b&B and there are less checks and balances - and an extremely unscrupulous management
its designed to make it easy for landlords to circumvent legal restrictions - deliberately so
it really is not. Its much easier to “game the system” using air b&B and there are less checks and balances – and an extremely unscrupulous management
its designed to make it easy for landlords to circumvent legal restrictions – deliberately so
I signed up with booking.com and homeaway.com when I set our place up.
There was no need to provide any documentation for any of them.
Re legal restrictions - AirBnB were shit hot to prevent bookings except for key workers during the recent lock downs; even taking into account local differences (e.g Scotland vs England).
Sure it's an enabler, but IME they don't promote any form of rule breaking.
it really is not. Its much easier to “game the system” using air b&B and there are less checks and balances – and an extremely unscrupulous management
its designed to make it easy for landlords to circumvent legal restrictions – deliberately so
Have you actually tried to do it. That's simply not true. They are all very similar. Not one of them looked for the municipal mayor's approval (legal requirement at my folks) neither did they require any evidence for fire safety or otherwise........
And that's with my folks NOT using air BnB....
yes I did look into it and from the information I got air B&B were never going to be used by me and will never be so
I was looking at going thru and agent so may be muddled because of what the agent wanted and what the booking companies wanted but it was clear to me other booking sites were much better to the point the agent strongly advised against using them
Sounds alot like your agent wasn't getting a big enough cut from.air BnB....
Yes they are all the same. My wife has a little holiday let on four platforms including Air BnB. There is no real difference.
The issue here is unscrupulous owners gaming the system and also unscrupulous holidaymakers who don’t have any consideration for neighbours.
OP best thing you can do is rent the place for 2 nights, hold a huge party, invite some hells Angel's along, trash the joint so the landlord decides to take it off Airbnb.
Another point I just remembered. Air BnB is actually better than some of the others as it allows you to screen visitors. You can then avoid renting to people likely to party all night. It also has a feedback system allowing you to review guests so folk won’t want to get a bad rep. Others like Booking.com don’t have this it’s all instant booking.
I live in a fairly touristy city on the north coast of Spain, there are 1200 AirBnBs in the city so about one for every 150 residents if my maths is right. Every other block has one.
Net result is there are no affordable long term lets for the thousands of low paid people employed in the service industry.
The flat next door is AirBnB and the majority of guests are ok (last nights came home noisily at 12:30am but whatever) - then you get a group of Americans only one of whom has the key and has gone home drunk and fallen asleep. Cue the others pressing all the buzzers at 4am trying to get in. That’s just one example of many, don’t mean to pick on Americans - similar stories all summer; the couple living above that flat work hospital shifts and given the pressure on hospitals now, I doubt they appreciate the disturbance.
Same story is playing out in Barcelona, Lisbon, all over Europe…
You can then avoid renting to people likely to party all night. It also has a feedback system allowing you to review guests so folk won’t want to get a bad rep.
It’s nice that some owners are scrupulous. My neighbour doesn’t care one sunflower seed for his clients are noisy. I’ve lived here ten years, it’s been AirBnB for half that and a brothel for the other half.
Neither required in Scotland for short term holiday let’s from day 1 – planning permission only required once you go over 90 days in a year let and air BnB won’t let you rent after your 90 days is up till you show your planning.
Technically in Edinburgh a change of use is required, but there is a lack of council resource to proactively enforce this so it is only done if and when complaints are made, and even then the council really struggle with capacity to enforce, however where they do investigate there is many many examples of properties being shut down on this basis. I guess arguably the same planning requirements would apply elsewhere but I don't know how other local interpret them, I just have experience in Edinburgh.
https://www.lettingagenttoday.co.uk/breaking-news/2021/5/airbnb-short-lets-require-planning-change-of-use-appeal-process-decides?source=newsticker
https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/people/edinburgh-airbnb-ban-on-absentee-landlord-who-lives-in-derbyshire-3230799
https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/business/ban-slapped-on-eight-airbnb-landlords-letting-flats-in-the-same-edinburgh-new-town-street-3293422
https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/people/edinburgh-airbnb-ban-on-absentee-landlord-who-lives-in-derbyshire-3230799
The proposed changes to the regulations are in order to make it easier to manage registration and enforcement than the current system allows.
I say this is an ex-Airbnb owner who spent quite a bit of time researching this, including trying to change use of my own property (without success) and having insightful but ultimately unsuccessful conversations with the planning department trying to understand how the current system could be made to work for responsible holiday let owners.
thank you for that doug - I was sure i was right that you need permissions in Edinburgh hence the thousands of illegal short term rentals
thank you for that doug – I was sure i was right that you need permissions in Edinburgh hence the thousands of illegal short term rentals
It should also be said that whatever side of the fence you sit on the current means of regulating is not fit for purpose. Use of planning regulations is too blunt a tool and not easily enforced by the council, and as we found out to our own detriment the view of the planner I spoke to was that they could essentially not accept any change of use requests for holiday lets in shared stairwells as they would always breach the current guidance, which for Edinburgh means almost all would be rejected.
I'm sure some folk would say that's fine but there's no doubt in my mind that holiday rentals need to be part of guest accommodation provision in cities (not in the volume currently in central Edinburgh, but a healthy mix), and that's impossible in many places without including property with communal entrances. There's also got to be an opportunity for responsible, properly regulated holiday let owners to run their rentals in harmony with residents, in our case the planning officer I spoke to was actually very positive about how ours was run and the evidence presented in our planning case was pretty impeccable in my opinion, but the regulations were so blunt that none of those things mattered.
The issue here is unscrupulous owners gaming the system and also unscrupulous holidaymakers who don’t have any consideration for neighbours.
This x1000
Airbnb give the information and tools you need to do it properly, and there's plenty of other stuff that can be done outside the platform to help do it safely and responsibly, there's nothing better or worse really that Airbnb did versus any other platform I used. But these things all take time and effort to implement and too often I think home owners just see it as a quick and easy buck compared to long term renting........ the income is greater and certainly in my experience the checks and measures in place by the authorities are vastly inferior, it would be pretty hard to do a long term rent in Edinburgh without having to adhere to rules and regulations, landlord registration, insurance, mortgage, all sorts. It is pretty easy to stick it up as a short term rental and have no requirement to do any of these things.