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Hypothetical scenario....if you suddenly found yourself in a position to indulge in silly fast / lairy cars, but up until now have no fast road or track experience, how would you a) avoid killing anyone and b) get the most out of it?
I know IAM / ROSPA are good on the observational skills / system of control stuff, but my uninformed perception is that they're not going to get you up to speed with steering on throttle etc. Am i wrong on this?
Does anyone know of an outfit who combine fast road and track / skid pan tuition?
Obviously for the sake of this hypothetical scenario, no speed limits will be abused... 😉
How to become a "tasty" driver....?
Join the police. Drive fast and get in fights. What's not to like?
Private lessons from [s]Surfmatt[/s] Glupton obvs
Just watch YouTube videos and drive like a bellend until you get good at it then offer your services as a getaway driver, it's the only way to know if you are indeed 'tasty'.
Most racing tracks do courses.
Reg Local on you tube. Book is worth it too. Real word fast driving.
If you were a world class, super driver like me... the real fun is in driving as fast as possible, whilst not breaking the speed limit, that way you enjoy the best of the car without getting into trouble (or killing people).
Pinch an RS6Avant, do over a cashpoint/drug dealer/weapons seller/prostitution ring then drive it like you stole it (because, basically you have) then whilst being chased get plod to video the chase, get that published on the many “crime chase/human misery” TV programmes and do some self critical analysis of your own driving abilities..
Repeat until proficient 😆
https://www.carlimits.com are supposed to be very good. Never used them myself though.
Just watch YouTube videos and drive like a bellend until you get good at it then offer your services as a getaway driver, it's the only way to know if you are indeed 'tasty'.
I've heard some 'tasty' drivers in prison, talking about how they got away from the cops & could've been a WRC champ.
Killed a couple of innocent people on the way maybe but, ya know, just think what could've been.
Keep a well maintained beard and physique.
Start with a ‘normal’ car on a track day. I had a right laugh flinging my Bora around Spa and The Ring and learnt and absolute bucket load about car control. Of course all the fast cars disappeared on the straights but in the corners they were more than a little pissed off seeing a turbo diesel Bora up their chuff with the marshals given them the blue flags to get out of my way.
Start normal and get normal cars fast.
Hang out in supermarket carparks at night
Some manufacturers do 'demo' days on a closed circuit, Porsche @ PEC, Silverstone for example. Get yourself booked on one and see how you go. The day is one on one and with a good, fast and experienced driver. There is even an ex F1 driver there and you'll gain a lot from the day. You can then book further courses there to further your ability. No kittens will be hurt and it's great fun.
Trackdays. Buy mx5 and do trackdays. Do a few to get the feel of the car, then go to another and pay for a tuition slot. The instructors are often ex racers, and they will tear apart your driving and make you a substantially quicker pilot.
Think about upgrading to a 'better' car, then get Jonnyboi to take you out in his mx5 and be amazed at what they can do in the hands of a good driver.
Fwiw, I don't know a single fast track driver that drives like a bellend on the road.
if you suddenly found yourself in a position to indulge in silly fast / lairy cars, but up until now have no fast road or track experience, how would you a) avoid killing anyone and b) get the most out of it?
a) Remember that the throttle pedal is an analogue input not an on off switch and there's no need to go faster just because the car is faster.
b) Many different ways. I've done some autotests over the years which are good for car handling and relatively safe (though hard on tyres and potentially transmission - but you can use a fairly cheap slow car quite successfully). Track days etc. also an obvious place where you can get it a bit more wrong with a bit less risk than on the road. Then there's the observational type side of it, which is a totally different matter. But the answer to a) is a boring but realistic start.
We had Ben Collins come down and show us a few tricks when I was in my old job.
Start with a ‘normal’ car on a track day. I had a right laugh flinging my Bora around Spa and The Ring
This is your daily runaround, then ??
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Trackdays, lots and lots of trackdays in something rear wheel drive.
Then once youre pretty good at it,youll decide theres no point in trying to go anywhere near the speeds you can go on a track on the road.
Reg Local on you tube. Book is worth it too. Real word fast driving.
Plus 1 for this. I know Reg from his days on Barry Boys. He's an ex-Police pursuit instructor I think.
Driving a car fast on the road has a little to do with car control and much much more to do with observation, anticipation, and smoothness, then you can worry about speed, position, gears and lastly, speed. Get yourself on a police driving course or IAM course.
Carlimits is good. Several of their airfield days and lots of practise. Then onto track orientated courses and lots of one on one days with instructors on track. Followed by lots more practice!
As I work with someone who instructs people on Supercar Experience days at Castle Combe, Thruxton and a couple of other circuits, I’d pay him to teach me to drive on as many cars as possible, for a couple of months at all the circuits he teaches at.
They use Audi R8’s, Aston Martin, Ferrari, and some other cars, that way I’d get my fill of super expensive and fast cars with someone else footing all the bills.
Personally, I’d own an SUV of some sort, a Tesla X, perhaps, and something small and nice handling like a Mazda MX-5 for fun.
+1 on reg local, picked up so many good tips from his vids
It's not really about driving fast though as such, though in some situations i suppose it could. It's more about proper observation, using the gears correctly, road positioning, etc.
For going fast, get some track instruction and do a few track days.
Start with a ‘normal’ car on a track day. I had a right laugh flinging my Bora around Spa and The Ring and learnt and absolute bucket load about car control. Of course all the fast cars disappeared on the straights but in the corners they were more than a little pissed off seeing a turbo diesel Bora up their chuff with the marshals given them the blue flags to get out of my way.Start normal and get normal cars fast.
There's a guy on YouTube ragging his old gutted out diesel Citroën AX around the Ring in under 10 minutes, overtaking many bigger and more powerful cars in the process.
But we're men. We know instinctively how to drive really fast and not crash. It's genetic isn't it?
Problem nowadays is that most cars can go very fast but with no perception of speed. Big fast modern saloons and performance cars are so “sorted” they enable you to do crazy speeds beyond most people’s skill level before they start to feel like they are fun or on the limit.
If you want to have fun on the roads get a Mk1 MX5 and don’t modify it, or an old mini or something RWD and lightweight. Get some training on a track to enable you to handle a car safely then go and find some roads where you can nimble along at safe speeds and have some fun. This doesn’t make you a road hooligan!
This is your daily runaround, then ??
That is beautiful.
It can also be a natural talent. I knew a lad years ago (everythings years ago when your'e my age) who won a BBC competition to find a prospective rally driver. He won a factory supported drive (not a full on thing) with Ford & drove a nicely competitive RS 2000 in a Manx rally.
He crashed it.*
*At exactly the same spot Walter Rohl crashed.
Just saying.
Trackdays with tuition. Actually anything with tuition but doing it on track takes away a lot of the consequence.
I wish, although rose tinted specs and all that.
Nope, mine was a bog standard first generation PD diesel engined 115bhp rep thing. It was a good steer though and tought me loads.
Interesting fact of the day: it was a picture of an orange proper Bora in Evo mag that decided the colour choice of our kitchen units.
A time machine back to the seventies, 17000 road deaths in 1972 in France, or if you still want to drive like a dick on public roads in 2018 how about a trip to Russia:
How fast a car are we talking? Realistically, the only time you get anywhere close to the absolute limits of say a 911 GT3, or a 720s, on the public road, you're having an accident!
Something a bit more modest, say an M3 or AMG merc, sure, a more average driver can (maybe) get those cars to their limits occasionally, but even then these are big, heavy, and slide a LONG way, so on the public road, it's generally a case of staying well inside even those limits!
An average driver can get an AMG merc to it's limits on an open road? Are you actually mad? The average driver wouldn't get near the limit of a Yaris without ****ting it into a signpost, as the many battered roadsigns dotted around attest.
As above - Reg Local seems to talk a lot of (common) sense - can be found on the Pistonheads Advanced Driving forum
Driving a car fast on the road has a little to do with car control and much much more to do with observation, anticipation, and smoothness, then you can worry about speed, position, gears and lastly, speed
This in spades.
Many thanks for the YouTube video of people being killed, Edukator. What point is it that you are trying to make?
Maxtorque.....I was thinking TVR fast rather than GT3 fast!
Does anyone know of an outfit who combine fast road and track / skid pan tuition?
That "fast road" isn't a good idea, so stick to track/closed road because whatever you learn won't make the roads safer, and if you think any kind of training makes it safer to go faster then you will and that will make the roads more dangerous for the rest of the population.
Used to love messing around in our old Fiesta. One of the "classic" shaped ones so mk3 or something. The one they facelifted and made it look really sad. Great cars for learning car control without actually going that fast.
The things I used to get up to and get away with when I was 17/18....no chance these days. I'm too old and rusty and cars are too powerful, too much grip, too heavy and feel too isolated from what the tyres are actually doing.
Quite a lot of assumptions there, then...
Is a smooth, observant, advanced driver likely to be quicker over a set distance than a jerky, unobservant one?
Can somebody who understands how their car behaves on the limit of grip and beyond be potentially safer?
Is it speed in itself that is dangerous?
Is the level of hazard proportional to speed?
Not realising that the accelerator pedal is more than simply an on/off switch is what seems to catch a lot of people out when driving cars that are more powerful than they are used to.
Indeed, in my earlier post I spoke about learning car control on a track which taught me a lot about the dynamics of how cars respond at the extremities of their dynamic range. In my case this was a very standard VW Bora. This was good because the top of that range was approachable by normal people.
As has been mentioned by others the ‘tasty’ cars available today are way beyond what normal drivers are cabable of keeping hold of. Hence when drivers try it they inevitably screw it up. See all the The Ring tourist track day vids on YouTube.
By the way I am in no way a tasty driver either, I just got good tuition and keep it sane.
On the roads I don’t make progress, unless the road is in the arse end of no where and I can see it’s deserted. That combination for me happens maybe once a year, if I’m very lucky. The rest of the time I drive like I’m not a massive dick.
YMMV.
plumslikerocks
Maxtorque.....I was thinking TVR fast rather than GT3 fast!
er, i'd rather drive an 911 GT3 (997 or later) at the limit than a TVR!
(mainly because Porsche spent more than £3.57 on the handling development....... 😉
Energy is proportional to the square of speed so goes up exponentially.
The speed itself is dangerous.
No, IMO, it may mean they are more likely to enter that dangerous zone thinking they can handle it so they are potentially less safe.Can somebody who understands how their car behaves on the limit of grip and beyond be potentially safer?
Being smooth and observant is good, add courteous, humble, careful, considerate, and excellent anticipation.
Does anybody set out to be jerky or unobservant?
In most modern cars, even reasonably powerful ones, they are set up to be really pretty benign, and the safety net of the stability electronics helps the average driver feel in control. Something like a TVR, is light, and although not that powerful by modern std, a bit flighty, often rather non-linear in-extremis, and lacking that electronic safety net! It is a car where too sudden an input can result in a reaction that cannot be controlled, particularly by an in-experienced driver who compounds their initial excessive positive input by adding a similarly too large negative one (be that handwheel or throttle input)
I'd certainly recommend doing an tailored airfield limit handling day in your particular car (ime, no two TVRs actually handle the same, not when new, and certainly not now they are getting on a bit). What this should show you (and maybe scare into you) is how quickly things can get out of hand if your not smooth and linear with your inputs) It should also help you to recognise the obvious once shown, but sadly not often noticed by drivers, signals from the car that you are approaching the limits.
With TVRs sensitivity to road surfaces (camber, surface etc) the std advanced techniques for positioning and line choice will really help a driver maximise stability at all speed, again, something noticeable by there absence in most drivers (who tend to make multiple, jerky, handwheel and other control inputs whilst setting up for, negotiating, and exiting a road feature. So, i'd recommend some generic advanced tuition as well as the specific limit handling stuff.