By knocking on your door they have been rude. I feel very strongly about this because I was a shift worker and have been woken up by these rude folk. You are rude to me by knocking on my door trying to induce me into your cult? I have ever right to be rude back
Just get a sign for for your door, for FFS.. I mean FGS : )
"atheism takes a level of faith"
I don’t follow.
Boom-tish?
What evidence do we have that there is no higher consciousness or no anything else that could be described as ‘god’?
What evidence would you require?
Why dismiss the existence of something like that if we can’t define it?
Define it, then.
Again, this Russell's Teapot. I have no way of knowing whether a god or gods exist. But I have little reason to suspect that they might and on balance of probability it's wildly unlikely.
I'm happy to concede that there may be a "god" in so far as there's a placebo effect. People "pray to god" and it's the metaphysical equivalent of giving yourself a talking to, pulling your socks up, I can get behind that. Divine sky wizards who created the universe in six days 6000 years ago, not so much.
why do we assume we can know all here when really we know so little?
Speak for yourself. Most educated people know that we know very little. The difference - excuse me, one difference - between science and religion is that science understands that it's OK to not know things rather than desperately making shit up to fill in the gaps.
tbh I find the certainty of some atheists sounds arrogant or foolish, not sure which.
I'm certain beyond reasonable doubt. I'm happy to be proven wrong.
How certain are you about the easter bunny? Would you consider your own belief here arrogant or foolish?
Carl Sagan believed in a god
Nope, this is incorrect. Sagan didn't believe in a god, rather his stance was that he was waiting for conclusive proof either way. Which, obviously, was never going to be forthcoming.
There’s a broader problem about every religion basically grounding their doctrine in the words of psychotic humans (“the demon artifice of man” as Terence McKenna noted).
whether they be Buddhist, Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, etc, it’s all just psychobabble from people who by any definition are severely mentally ill.
and the dogma never gets questioned or revised.
we need to cut through this endless rehashing of unchallenged crap.
So, Id propose that in the uk, undergoing an extended breakthrough DMT experience should be a fundamental prerequisite of any religious or political office. And also readily available to Joe Public too.
the technology exists for the leaders of these religions to safely experience ‘perspective’.
it just needs a legal framework.
and with medical supervision.
There are better times to discover an underlying health condition:
I have a Mezuzah on the door frame, if they see it, by the time I'm opening the door, they're already half way back to the pavement, apologising profusely. If they don't see it, all I have to do is point at it as soon as they ask whatever question they're going for, and we're done.
If you're really lucky, they note the address, and they'll never come again.
Now, that view of god is fundamentalism, like an assumption and we know what that makes .. But what is a god?
The problem is you are having to handwave god away to be basically meaningless and ending up with the strongest version of deism eg one who doesnt get involved in the universe. I would agree that particular variant cant be disproved but since they have zero impact on us its irrelevant. It also makes for a pretty crap religion since the second they start telling people the rules we move to an interventionist god at which point we can start querying the claims and showing they are incorrect.
Are you really still undecided on the existence of Zeus on mount Olympus?
My dad used to send them on to convert his brother which was a horses stable up the road.
they’re already half way back to the pavement, apologising profusely.
I am surprised, I have always thought that Jehovah's Witnesses weren't trying to convert solely atheists, and that they were aware of God's Jewish connection, Jesus they even call God by his Hebrew name!
Not sure that’s how faith works, tj.
Faith is belief without evidence. Theists believe there is a god and ask us non theists to prove there isn't a god often then use the fact we cannot prove the non existence a god to claim some sort of equivalence between the two. ie that the belief in a god and non belief in a god are of equal logical stature
I know there is no god. I do not have to prove the non existence of one. The burdon of proof is on those who claim the existence and being a theist or an atheist are not equivalent logically.
What evidence do we have that there is no higher consciousness or no anything else that could be described as ‘god’?
multiple religions all with different gods with different attributes. they cannot all be right.
pain and suffering in the world.
the total absence of any evidence ever
The disgusting behaviour off many theists
Understanding that religion is a method of coercive control of people particularly women
Basic scientific understanding
I can confidently state there is no god and have no fear of anyone ever being able to challenge this with evidence or even philosophy that has any logical coherence
How certain are you about the easter bunny?
Pagan fertility symbol
I am the same with all cold callers, i don't answer the door. If they see me it makes no difference its my door i can open it when and whenever i want. It causes confusion when they see me just getting on with things ignoring them.
What evidence would you require?
What evidence would I require to believe in 'god'? I don't know. I can't think of something that is likely to happen that could do that. But I believe in the good nature of people because I see it happen. Along similar lines I might acquire a faith because I see they way it benefits people. To do that I'd accept that there is 'god', not as a being perhaps but as an idea.
How certain are you about the easter bunny? Would you consider your own belief arrogant or foolish?
It's a good line of reasoning but I don't see it as equivalent to the idea of 'god' or faith as a positive, uplifting influence on a person's life (as opposed to the dogmatic view). Perhaps I see faith (that positive influence rather than one religion Vs another) as an expression of something naturally human like love or creativity, the source isn't something I can be certain of. Is it from within or are we inspired? I know I feel inspired by a sunrise or a clear starry night and to some that is the 'presence' of god. I don't believe that but I won't dismiss it, if that makes sense.
This is incorrect. Sagan didn’t believe in anything, rather his stance was that he was waiting for conclusive proof either way.
You're correct - I found the book here and I'd been given the wrong steer on it. Been meaning to get started on it for ages. Still, interesting that he didn't think he had all the understanding needed to say there was no god.
The difference – excuse me, one difference – between science and religion is that science understands that it’s OK to not know things rather than desperately make shit up to fill in the gaps.
I know a couple of people who are Christian and active/practicing yet they really don't make up things to fill gaps, they're intelligent professional people, pragmatic about it all and can be critical of any focus on religious detail. I suppose they made me realise you can have faith without believing all of it, it doesn't need to be a purity thing and for some of them questioning aspects of it is encouraged. That's what made me more interested in it. Yet it hasn't changed my beliefs either - certain beyond reasonable doubt but open to being proved wrong (and not expecting that to happen anytime..). It's just made me more respecting of and open to how they think. And tbh, it's just an interesting topic.
My dad used to send them on to convert his brother which was a horses stable up the road.
Sent them on a foal's errand?
The disgusting behaviour off many theists
To be fair here, they hardly have the monopoly. There's plenty of atheist shitbags also.
Who said religion provided a positive and uplifting influence?
A lot of innocent people die every year due to someone else's superior religion. A lot have been abused, tortured, raped, beheaded etc.
It's all bollocks to control people.
Western religion is currently oil and the S&P500. Go figure
It’s a good line of reasoning but I don’t see it as equivalent to the idea of ‘god’ or faith as a positive, uplifting influence on a person’s life (as opposed to the dogmatic view).
Don't you like chocolate?
You argue that the atheist "belief" is arrogant/foolish. Yet I'll wager you reject beliefs yourself all the time. If not the easter bunny then father christmas, the tooth fairies, zombies, Dangermouse...
Love and sunrises can exist perfectly well without requiring "god did it," the addition of religion changes nothing.
I know a couple of people who are Christian and active/practicing yet they really don’t make up things to fill gaps
Only in so far as things have already been made up for them I suppose.
you can have faith without believing all of it,
Wait, what now?
Does one not intrinsically rely on the other?
multiple religions all with different gods with different attributes. they cannot all be right.
Two thoughts on that, the second is not mine and I'm sure the first isn't new either - 1st is they're all interpretations of the same human wonder or energy if you like, influenced by culture and the time they were established, they vary but go back to the source and they may well be close to the same? 2nd is that we can only say 'Faith A can't be right as well as Faith B' as a way to back up scepticism from a position that is Faith C, the faith of doubt. Doubt is a faith since we don't have actual proof either way. They can't all be right, one can't be right over the others. That includes Faith C. So either you take faith in one or no certainty in any of them is possible for you - yet that doesn't dismiss the possibility of 'a god'.
Your other points have been addressed by theologists, I'm not taking a side apart from seeing how none of them dismiss the possibility of the existence of a god. e.g. 'how can there be a god when there is pain and inhumanity in the world' - without knowing pain there is no joy. Pain in the world is not evidence that there is no god, it's simply the human condition or consciousness.
Or the disgusting behaviour off many theists, coerciveness etc - people twist anything to their own ends. I don't see them as theists, just people abusing a source of power. A true theist or follower wouldn't act like that. Trump is not a true Christian but it suits him to talk about god and Christianity.
It’s a recruitment drive, nothing less.
Is part of it not to reinforce the cult to those already there as opposed to converting noobs? Look at the outside world and all the rejection you get from knocking on Joe public’s door, the cult welcomes you in with open arms…
Doubt is a faith since we don’t have actual proof either way.
I have no doubt. I know there is no god
Your argument there is just as I said - giving equivalence to faith and non faith.
Faith is belief without evidence.
Science is belief with evidence
Ther two are not equivalent
1st is they’re all interpretations of the same human wonder or energy if you like, influenced by culture and the time they were established, they vary but go back to the source and they may well be close to the same?
This is already well understood. Much of Abrahamic religions can be traced back to Pagan and similar beliefs and traditions.
a position that is Faith C, the faith of doubt.
At the risk of repeating myself, doubt does not require faith. The notion that I don't have a unicorn infestation in my cellar is not dependent on a belief system.
I just politely tell them I’m not interested, quite simple. I’m not religious but respect peoples belief. My son once answered the door to them stark naked, not seen any for years now.
i live next door to a family/couple. They told me what they are, but never mentioned any more.
they must have realized it wouldnt interest me, although i do feel guilty sometimes about not teaching them some common sense and allowing them to carry on believing bullsxxx
they vary but go back to the source and they may well be close to the same?
Nope.
Hindu with its multiple gods does not come from the same place as Christianity. Similarly animism has a different root etc etc
Judaism split into multiple religions yes - so Christianity of all sorts shares roots with judasim. there are an awful lot more religions than christianity and its various sects
Religion only exists to control populations
Love and sunrises can exist perfectly well without requiring “god did it,” the addition of religion changes nothing.
As Douglas Adams famously said: "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too"?
Much of Abrahamic religions can be traced back to Pagan and similar beliefs and traditions.
Its not the roots tho - its stuff they co opted along the way.
Or the disgusting behaviour off many theists, coerciveness etc – people twist anything to their own ends. I don’t see them as theists, just people abusing a source of power. A true theist or follower wouldn’t act like that.
Name me one religion that does not involve coercive control. I know of none. Sikhism perhaps comes close as proselytising is not allowed.
I struck up a friendship with a next door Plymouth Brethren family when working on a site once, well the grandad actually. I found them quite fascinating.
And I once paired up and worked on site with a Seventh Day Adventist carpenter, he was fascinating too - a massive great big scary West Indian geezer with the biggest hands I have ever seen which looked like they were made out of shoe leather.
He was deeply religious and instead of throwing a few fux around, and the liberal use of the C word, as you do when you are working, the word he would use in their place was "nasty"
Print out one of these
Stick it in the window.
Job done.
Failing that I'd dig a moat.
You argue that the atheist “belief” is arrogant/foolish.
I wasn't that definite, I said the certainty of some atheists can sound that way, sometimes it's with high certainty or emotion but poorly reasoned. It isn't always oc. I'm probably closer to atheist than agnostic. 75/25?
Wait, what now?
Does one not intrinsically rely on the other?
Not sure I'm reading your q right but what I mean is, you could be for example a practicing Christian (as in a follower of Christ's message, if that's the right term) but not believe the Old Testament was true. imo that's a valid, pragmatic view of Christianity. Or maybe you interpret the 'father son and holy ghost' thing as something that describes the idea, the man who shared it and the spirit he had - that was something I questioned when I was young "Because why would the vicar be talking about ghosts?" and it seemed obvious it wasn't a literal truth but an expression of an idea. And from there I thought, ok so 'god' isn't an immortal man in heaven, it's an idea in people's minds that comes from somewhere (and from where is a part of the credibility of all this).
Perhaps I'm ok with the vagaries because the story (bible) accuracy is questionable yet overall it has a momentum and positive importance to so many. So understanding it may be in the ability to interpret the message, not being a dogmatic fundamentalist who are the type who abuse it for power. I guess that applies to other faiths in similar ways. Get to the gist of it it not the details.
You can look at the Bible from two points of view; archeological and theological, and divide the "stories" into events that correspond to history/archeology and those that don't. To dismiss it is to ignore its value as the best written record of iron age history that we have.
Name me one religion that does not involve coercive control. I know of none. Sikhism perhaps comes close as proselytising is not allowed.
I can't, of course. Buddhism doesn't seem to but an exception wouldn't prove much. Coerciveness and abuse of power is a human thing - money, work, relationships all see it but aren't founded in it. The rat race lives you and I lead is about coercive control.
Is there any religion that is founded in coercive control (and not from our perspective, from the view of those in that culture)?. One comes to mind to me straight away but I think that's the current organisation or power structure using it, not the religion itself. There are cults that come out of religion but again, that's people abusing power.
No time for them but am not rude.
We had them knock at a holiday cottage a mile down a dirt track once! Just commented on their commitment, said it wasn't for me and closed the door.
Regarding the own doorstep thing me ex colleague lived on the same road as the Kingdom Hall. He repeatedly got called on to the point of going down there to ask them not to.
I should add he was a Welsh rugby player and owned a Boxer dog. Both lovely, both built like the proverbial brick out house.
One day he heard the gate, and saw a suit walking up the drive. He wound the dog up and then opened the door and shouted "See him off!"
The sight of a slobbering Boxer (look intimidating, actually daft, soft and wanting a game of chase) made this guy turn tail and vault the wall.
No more callers after that.
We had a spell of callers here. I had a few Dirt mags on the stairs, ready to say "Ah, I'm glad you've come, let me talk to you about what I do on a Sunday morning! Take a copy of this publication and join me in the woods". Excuses made. By them obvs...
the old – “ignore the bits of your faith you do not like” fundamentally dishonest. The bible as allegory. Its a method used to justify the unjustifiable
I didn't say 'ignore what you don't like' - that could be like, don't sin in 6 ways but one of them I really like even though it hurts others, it's fine..
What I was explaining was how I have respect for Christians who can be true to the message, the good stuff gist of it, and carry it out as a positive influence and not need to stick to the line that God made the earth in 6 days etc. Question the bits that aren't credible or that undermine the carrier of the message was what I was getting at.
If the bible is an allegory to take meaning to be used for good or bad - if you use it for bad then you're not hearing the message are you? This whole thing is more about people's nature and maybe what I'm getting at is where does that nature come from, a nature/nurture q where nature is bigger than just the immediate environment.
Jeez I sound like I'm almost converted or something.. Ha. Maybe no more religion for me this evening. I'm way OT too.
And, really - dishonest? There's nothing unscientific I can think of that I believe or agree with 100%. I don't even agree with Jeff Jones on bikes 100% : )
Back to actual jehovah's witnesses, it's been reported that in the states the church sends people out doorstepping not to try and make conversions, because that essentially never happens any more, but that the entire point now is entirely to expose their people to angry people and to essentially tramuatise them and make them feel isolated and ostracised and push them further into the arms of the church. Anyone know if that's the case here?
I was quite tickled to get some at my door, never had it in 40-odd years so I'd almost written it off. We did used to get the church of scotland coming round to try and save us and my mum from my evil apostate dad and bring us back to the faith, that was always quite fun.
Yes dishonest
Folk claiming to be Christian but do not follow the teachings of their faith picking and choosing the bits that they actually want to follow. " I have to do this because its gods word but I do not have to do this or believe this because that bit is just an allegory"
Its either the word of god and to be followed in total or its a load of baloney
isnt that the aim of 'religions'? when someone is traumatised, you can convince them of an alternative traumatisation.
whereas if you face the real world, instead of some neuroses, due to some fear, you are free of it
“Oh are you Witnesses? I work with 2 guys who are witnesses, lovely chaps”
that worked a treat and is true.
the old – “ignore the bits of your faith you do not like” fundamentally dishonest
Have you ever wondered why most catholics, despite the church expressly forbidding the use of contraception, don’t all have 15 kids?
Its either the word of god and to be followed in total or its a load of baloney
It's not that B+W - it's the word of spiritual leaders and followers, over generations and interpretations. Interpretation takes motives and intelligence so we have spiritual leaders as well as coercive chancers. Bit like politics really. Right, on that note, defo off for beer time. Cheers..
the entire point now is entirely to expose their people to angry people and to essentially tramuatise them and make them feel isolated and ostracised and push them further into the arms of the church.
Sounds like cult behaviour. tbh the more I see of the general public in confined spaces the more I see their point : )
It is really - the bible is supposed to be the literal word of god. You and I both know its a load of made up stories written a long time after the supposed events but to christians its the word of god.( or should be if they actually follow that religion)
They use the bible to say why they and us non theists should follow their rules as it is the word of god then conveniently ignore the bits they do not want to follow
I have seen this in action in the debate over assisted dying. Supposed christians saying it goes against gods teaching but when I ask them if they follow other inconvenient bits they do not. In this way fundamentalists are actually more honest
My late partner, who was around the house a lot more often than I was actually had a chat with a pair who pitched up one day, and rather enjoyed it, I think they came back once more. She had no interest in the actual religion, but she’d happily talk to anyone.
I haven’t seen any for ages, though, and I’d either say sorry, I’m not interested, or smile brightly and say
“ask me about my attention deficit disorder or pie or my cat. a dog. I have a bike. do you like tv? I saw a rock. hi.”
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I find just being myself works.
Not Jehovah Witnesses, but the local CofE.
10:00 Sunday morning, I had just got out of bed when there was a knock at the door.
Posh lady in twinset and pearls took one look at me and said “Oh, I am sorry” and started to walk away.
Realizing I was still looking (bemused) at her she explained that she was asking if anyone would like to attend the local church and hurried away.
