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here'd be no bread or milk or newspapers
Local shops selling local produce could fill some of this gap but youre right we would have less "stuff" in general and all vehicles going would be an issue.
Bet we would be much happier with say 50% fewer though.
TBH I would settle for all schools being of an equally good standard and easily accessed by foot/cyclepath. That would reduce car reliance for many immediately.
Much more than we used to be now we have children. It would be impossible to place them where they need to be several times a day without 2 cars.
Plus my wife has a 60 mile round trip commute.We do 35,000 miles pa between us including holiday driving
To mitigate this we do about 15,000 of them in our electric car and the Hybrid rund electric in town and has very low emissions generally.
What disgusts me is how though my childrens schools are only 2 miles away they can't cycle due to traffic conditions (which I am contributing to!!) though now the oldest walks as she is old enough and sensible enough. I can't walk my youngest as I simply don't have enough time before work.
We are thinking of moving to the Netherlands to change this situation
I am absolutely certain that my car hire . public transport and hire car use is far less than owning a car.
I am sure it is for you, but not for many people. Again not saying many could not reduce car usage or drop to one car per household. My point was that the examples present on articles about reducing usages need to have broader applicability to people and not just consider completely getting ride of a car. For some completely getting rid of a car will not be possible but not using a car all the time alternatives must be enticing. For others getting rid of a car may be possible but a journey rather than a jump.
Its also about being organised, for example combining several journeys into one (which is also a more efficient use of your time).
But yes, being evangelical is just daft, not every solution works for everyone, there is no one size fits all solution and people who pretend otherwise are deluding themselves.
Whilst I don't drive that much, for certain things it would be a real pain
On my own I could cope without a car, but it would be a pain. Having use of my motorbike would cancel out the need for a car, but it would sort of be cheating
For my and my wife, we could just cope without a car. It would be annoying for seeing certain family members who don't live near public transport (even though we do). Also, whilst our links to the London tube are great (5 min walk), we're on the edge of London so going round the edge is a pain, you need buses. Otherwise you have to go in and out of central London. Again motorbike would be cheating, and only I ride.
With children it would be much harder to not have a car. Lots of cases where having a car just makes things easier, simpler or quicker. It's also harder to 'pop somewhere' because you fancy it without a car. You'd also need to consider car seats if you're ordering cabs etc
I also like cars, so I'd not really consider not having one. If I was on my own, or just me and the wife (and no dogs), I'd have something fun and fast rather than a huge practical estate!
Right, winston, and anyone else who is about to jump down my throat for this, i want to be 100% clear about this up front...
[i][b]I am not asking you to explain or justify your specific circumstances, nor am I picking on you specifcically or saying you're wrong, I am using your statement as an example to discuss a point[/b]
[/i]
now that disclaimer is out of the way...
It would be impossible to place them where they need to be several times a day without 2 cars
I hear things like this a lot, but often it's not that it's [i]impossible[/i], it's that it's either [i]slightly [/i]harder, or requires a little more planning or imagination, and in some cases actually not either difficult or more time consuming but just requires doing something differently.
For any situation there will always be people in a similar/same situation who don't own a car yet somehow manage, there will also possibly be other people nearby you who you could share the load with, or minor changes to routine that could actually make a big difference.
As part of the work I do with a local charity I have discussions like this regularly that start with "Oh it would be impossible for us to do X or Y by bike/foot", after a bit of a chat you actually find out that not only do they already know people who do X and Y without a car, but that so could they, and in some cases it would be easier and quicker!
I could relay a dozen or more anecdotal examples right now but that's not the point or useful, the point is that a lot of car use comes from [i]having a car[/i] available, not because using the car is the best option for that use.
That's not to say the same is true for everyone, but there is a great deal of assumption that goes on with car use, and what I would like to see more of is people actually looking at their behaviour and making decisions rather than following habits, it would be better for society overall and might even be better for you personally 😀
It's not about justifying having a car, but about justifying to yourself your own level of personal use. If you want to own a car, live a lifestyle that requires it, or even use it for everything, and pay for that use then go ahead. But at least know that it's your choice to do so, and that it comes with consequences, both personal and societal. It's excessive and un-necessary use that ideally should be reduced if possible, but that can be applied to anything really, excessive and un-necessary use of anything will eventually lead to problems.
Far too much, I would love to live without one and the hassle of servicing, worrying about paying to fix it, insurance etc etc etc. In my ideal world I would just hire one for holidays and days out and get taxis but having kids and no car just wouldn't work with our modern hectic lifestyles.
Made the choice to forego car ownership over two years ago, but only so I could be smug on here.
It is a choice.
Personally more reliant than I'd like but way less than most. I do about 120miles a week on my bike and maybe 30 in the car.
As a family my wife uses hers for work as she travels about and we use it for dropping off/collecting kids from school/swimming/grandparents etc. We do try to use it as little as possible but that's still more than we'd like.
My car was dropped off at the local garage this morning for its annual service / mot, regular guy in the garage asks the usual how many miles, I tell him 2000 went to Scotland twice last year, he laughs and sayes "yeah yeah will see" comes back "you've only done 2000???!!!" No need to service as it was done last year, new cars should be able to have 2 year intervals on low mileage, but will give it the once over check.
So I'm not reliant on the car, if I go into the city it's the train, Cannock midweek train again, work I walk or cycle, big week shop I walk to work, taxi or lift home depending who's around.
My OH doesn't drive, I have a 13 plate ds3 paid off a couple of years ago, I got it a year old had a poor life first 12 months. Annual costs insurance, petrol, mot, service, probably costs me £1k to have it sat outside the house.
I work miles from where I live, I looked at a bus to get from my house to Huntingdon in the morning, it requires 2 and one doesn't run early enough to make the train I use. So I drive to the station.
We've lived off one car for the last 14/15 years and have been fine.
My wife is currently out of work (through choice), but looking at a job that would require her to drive to work too - in the opposite direction to me, so currently thinking about a second.
2 years back I had a job where had I stayed I'd have been made redundant, but I could ride to work and did. She had a job she could ride or get the bus to in Cambridge but she hated it so she quit.
Sometimes jobs aren't as local as you want them to be, I still miss the days where my car gathered dust all week and I got tan lines from my bike commute though. Would happily go back to it, but it's just not an option at this point in time, jobs in Cambridge haven't worked out and despite the commute I like the job I have in London.
Very reliant on a car.
I drive 60,000 miles a year.
Mainly to places where the roads are yet to be built, so there is rarely a chance of finding a train station nearby
I don't have a car, or a drivers license. Until Mstomhoward came along I managed for 12 years (as an adult) without any access to one. I was single, never lived more than 3.5 miles from work (until now, 20 miles now, but 3 miles from home to train station, 2.5 miles to work at the other end) and fairly close to a town centre.
Spent a fair bit on cabs for getting to various hospital/dentist/doctors appts in the middle of the day, but nowhere near the cost of running a car.
I started drafting a reply, but then realised I don't fit in with all the non-driver virtue-signalling that's become so popular on here recently. Have all the Audi owners moved to a new forum ? Or are they just keeping quiet ?
[b]Same disclaimer as above[/b]
My wife often rushes from one side of town to the other, because she makes arrangements that require her to do so. She says that this is why she needs the car.
My take on it is that she doesn't need a car because of the arrangements, she makes the arrangements because she has the car.
I started drafting a reply, but then realised I don't fit in with all the non-driver virtue-signalling that's become so popular on here recently. Have all the Audi owners moved to a new forum ? Or are they just keeping quiet ?
[i]Recently?[/i] Are you new here?
Are we still answering the op?
Zero. Taxi, uber and occasional hire car is cheaper than car ownership for me, much more convenient and more relaxing.
I don't "rely" on it. Work is close, shops are close, there's a metro nearby. I generally use it get to mountain bike rides. Sometimes I go weeks without using it. Would mss not having it.
Given people's stated reliance, how much does anyone think they could reduce it by? Perhaps a better or more realistic approach than assuming that reduction == prohibition.
Could you maintain something close to your current lifestyle if, for example, you were only permitted ten car journeys per week? We'll dutifully avoid practicalities like "how would it be enforced?", let's just assume for the discussion that it could be.
Given people's stated reliance, how much does anyone think they could reduce it by? Perhaps a better or more realistic approach than assuming that reduction == prohibition.Could you maintain something close to your current lifestyle if, for example, you were only permitted ten car journeys per week? We'll dutifully avoid practicalities like "how would it be enforced?", let's just assume for the discussion that it could be.
It's very difficult to reduce trips if the car's an option as there are so many embedded costs to the car ownership.
If we want to go into town as a family, the only additional financial cost is a negligible amount of fuel and £1 an hour for parking, assuming we don't use the free 2 or 3 hour parking options. The return bus fair would be a tenner. Guess how many times we've got the bus into town together?
Unfortunately, government/council decisions have made the car the only option for many. Until the cost of driving better reflects all the societal costs and sustainable active methods are catered for, this is likely to continue.
The return bus fair would be a tenner. Guess how many times we've got the bus into town together?
What does a taxi cost?
I wonder how many people can quote a car ownership cost here.
What does a taxi cost?
I'm not sure - we've never got a taxi because we own a car. I only know the bus fare because I took the kids into town by bus on Sunday.
I wonder how many people can quote a car ownership cost here.
It's two miles each way. Based on the RAC's 50p per mile figure, that's £2. HMRC would allow a claim of £1.60 for that distance.
Even for a single adult, using what seem like very high figures, it's cheaper to drive than get the bus, which is £1.70 [i]each way[/i] for an adult.
Edit: we could get a family one day bus pass for £7. If we stayed in town for five hours and paid for parking the bus would break even. I don't think I'd want to spend five hours shopping with my family.
I wonder how many people can quote a car ownership cost here.
It's two miles each way. Based on the RAC's 50p per mile figure, that's £2. HMRC would allow a claim of £1.60 for that distance.
Admirable but not the question, what does 1 year of car ownership cost before you go anywhere. That is the basis of any real calculations
Before I go anywhere its about £550 not including depreciation. But that's a sunk cost as far as I'm concerned, the car is paid for and anything we get back at the end is a bonus. Given my milage my VED, MOT and insurance work out at 3.6p per mile right now plus the 12.5p diesel makes 16.1p per mile.
A journey to my folks and back is £8.05 which is close to a return train ticket for one. To work and back its £2.45 which is about ten times less than a taxi (at normal times, I dread to think what the late prices are like). Leeds and back is £81.79 which, again is about right for a single person return booked in advance.
As said, until public transport is either cheaper, more convenient or preferrably both the car will be first choice. Maybe not the right choice but the first choice nontheless.
Admirable but not the question, what does 1 year of car ownership cost before you go anywhere. That is the basis of any real calculations
I'm not a car owner, so not a clue.
Pretty easy to calculate though: depreciation plus insurance plus VED are the only, relatively, fixed costs. Even these will vary as, if the car's not going anywhere, you can SORN it and zero mileage insurance will be cheaper.
I wonder how many people can quote a car ownership cost here
£350 per month (petrol, car loan, insurance, service, MOT, tyres)
Cover 15,000 miles per year (2/3 of that commuting) so around 28p per mile.
Bus to get me within 2 miles of work is over £4 and first bus leaves at 11:00 with last bus back at 17:00.
I want to say not very, but that would just be me (cycle or train commute), as a family we're quite dependant. Mrs has a 30min+ drive to uni/work placements and shifting the kids anywhere is a pain on PT. Occasionally one of us wants/needs the car and the other has to transport kids, fortunately sister gave us her old car so now we have 2.
And of course once you've got a car other stuff becomes easier/cheaper to do by car, I used to do the big shop on the bike, now by car, still use bike for little shops obviously. Tired this morning and running late so drove kids to school instead of walking/riding (before school club, situation would have to be desperate before I joined the school run mayhem). Trips to city centre, fairly easy by train but car is easier and cheaper. I still push the family to walk places where mrs would probably prefer car. Bus travel for the most part is woeful. With better cycle infra I'd take kids by bike to more places but currently we have to go round the houses on safer/more pleasant routes.
Haven't worked it out but TCO on second car shouldn't be much, did consider hiring a car when needed but having to plan ahead, faff and lack of convenience etc etc
"[i]I wonder how many people can quote a car ownership cost here.[/i]"
Off the top of my head (give or take):
Insurance - £200
VED - £145
MOT - £30 (Halfords always have a deal, and it's not failed one yet)
Depreciation - almost negligible. It's a crap old car that cost £1200 three years ago. As long as it has an MOT it can't really lose any more value.
Oil & filter once a year - £50
It had a set of new tyres (£200) and discs & pads all round (£100) at Christmas. It doesn't need that every year though.
So at worst, about £750/yr. It does a genuine 55-60mpg, for 20k miles lets be a touch pessimistic and call it £2k. So £2750 all-in.
That makes 13.75p/mile for my commuting, and 10p/mile marginal for anything else on top like shopping or visiting people. I think this is pretty much as cheap as you can possibly run a car.
A caveat on my post, I'm not a holier than thou, smug non car owner, I'd have one in an instant, but medical issues prevent.
[quote="squirrelking"]Before I go anywhere its about £550 [b]not including depreciation[/b]. But that's a sunk cost as far as I'm concerned...
That's cheating ! It's still a cost. By that logic you could buy an annual travel card, call it a sunk cost, and claim that travelling by public transport is free.
I wonder what fraction of the typical working day is spent working to earn the money to pay for the car to get to work?
the thing is that's a massively variable cost isn't it?
Some people buy brand new cars outright
Some people buy new cars with loans/finance
Some people lease new cars
Some people buy older cars outright
Some people buy even older cars for peanuts
So the whole "how mush per year does your car cost" question is always going to get wildly different answers.
The cost per year of not using a £30,000 car is different to the cost of not using a £500 car, even though the ongoing running costs like fuel/insurance/tyres could be the same between the two of them.
Not to mention that your age/circumstances can mean that insurance can vary by a factor of 10, which skews the 'fixed cost' bit even more.
I think looking at it financially is a non-starter as the only way you can do that is in an individual basis, and even if you can prove one way or the other is actually £ for £ cheaper (for your specific case) you have to factor in the ephemeral 'value' of convenience and how much that is worth to you.
Not to mention that someone who can afford it and is spending loads makes the same impact as someone who is struggling and running on a tight budget if they both reduce their use in the same way where appropriate.
For me, I was luckily already able to afford running two cars, but the benefits I've had from reducing my use have been in reduced stress, reduced time wasted, improved health [i]and [/i]financial.
The benefits to everyone else of me not using my car as much have mostly been environmental and [i]not [/i]financial.
Better to just look overall at your situation and make the best choices for you and your situation, money is one aspect of that but not all, don;t get hung up on it too much.
In terms of cutting down - I have over the last 12 months.
I changed jobs this time last year. At my old job I had free parking. I cycled three or four days per week and drove one or two. I now work next door but have to pay for parking. I've driven twice in 12 months.
I'd always assumed £1,500 or so per year, let's see
Insurance £700
VED £280
Annual service, MOT and a couple of 'bits' each year £450 (this is a complete guess)
RAC £167 (covers motorbike too though)
Park on drive so no parking charges
£1,500 wasn't a mile off, but lets see the other stuff
We do very low mileage, so tyres and consumables don't come up much, max of around 5,000 per year including week long family holiday in the car.
Car does around 23mpg (uber conservative estimate, stop start local driving mainly), so at £1.13 a litre that's about £1,100 in fuel
So around £1,600 in running costs, £2,700 including fuel
I reckon the car will depreciate around £1,000 per year as a minimum too. Lets say £1,300 to make the maths easier
So £4k per year to do 5k miles, which works out at 80p a mile total cost. Price per mile would go down if we did more miles though (to a point, as consumables would go up)
Okay my car cost about £5.5k a year and a half ago, if anyone wants to calculate the depreciation of a now 8.5year old Mondeo batter in. Couple of hundred quid, if that? I call it a sunk cost. That's what its worth to me and it'll probably run until it either gets too expensive to fix or I have a compelling reason to get shot of it.
I used to live in London and cycle everywhere and didn't need a car at all.
But then I ..
1. Moved out of London
2. Moved in with OH
3. Got caught up in Southern train strike fiasco
4. Had a baby
Now we have 2 cars and need them both! One of them is a 1.0 Toyota IQ which is v. cheap to run tho.
Current house: 100% reliant on the car as we're miles from anywhere
House by the beach: Could probably do without 95% of the time as we're within 5 mins walk of the village shops/pubs plus there's plenty of taxis and a bus service.
When we go there we unpack the car and generally don't touch it again until we go home - this can include stays of 4-5 weeks.
For day to day stuff not much. Local shops, plus supermarket delivery. Wife works in the local school around the corner. I cycle to work three days a week.
Car mostly gets used for long journeys to visit friends and relatives and by me for visiting customers now and again. At a guess the cost of the train for a family of five would be more expensive and less flexible than the car.
I would say we are very dependant upon our car. I am a paramedic and pre pregnancy my station was only 3 miles away however I have to be at work at 0530 and I am not a morning person so use a car to get there for day shifts, night shifts I cycle. Since iv been pregnant they have moved me to the control room which is 30 miles each way and no public transport to get there for the 7am start time. My other half is a lorry driver and his depot is about 6 miles away, he usually has to be in work by 430am and usually works a 12-15 hour day, he rides a motorbike to work. We did have two cars but I was hit by an uninsured driver 18 months ago and my car was written off, I still don't have my own car because I am still waiting for the MIB to deal with my case. We would be struggling if he did not have his motorbike. We also need the car to go to my maternity appointments, we could get to the local one on public transport and it wouldn't take too long but there have been some problems with the baby and some of our appointments are over in Bristol with specialists. Again no car and it would be hard for us to go to these appointments. They have built an asda walking distance where we live, I tend to walk to do the shopping unless there is going to be too much for me to realistically carry. We have three dogs who currently are mostly having local walks but need the car to get them to the vets. Once our son is born I think we will be even more dependant on the car, he may or may not be disabled we won't know until awhile after he is born, nor do we know to what severity we only have probabilities. We will have to go to see the specialists every 3 months after he is born for tests during his first year. There is the chance he may never be able to sit unaided let alone walk so will need a car to transport him once he is too big to be carried. I am currently trying to convince my partner to get one of the thule chariot trailers so I can retain a degree of freedom as he will probably take the car most days once I'm on maternity leave. It would be nice to be able to go jogging with the baby and later cycling. Once I return to work I will definitely need a car as I will be essentially working as relief and could be sent anywhere within an hours drive for my shifts. I will also need to take our son to Bristol before work to be cared for by my parents as there are no child care options that cover 12 hour shifts, especially at the hours we would need.
I could manage just fine without a car I cycle to work and have good public transport links from end of the road. I have 2 cars to go and do fun stuff that's not local. Or just to go to work when I'm feeling lazy.
Handed back my company car 4 years ago. One of the best things I ever did. Wife has a small car that we use if necessary, but we only do about 3500 miles a year in it.
I wonder what fraction of the typical working day is spent working to earn the money to pay for the car to get to work?
For me, including all purchase and running costs it would be 0% of my working day. 😆
Living in a rural area with 1 bus a day to one of three towns (all a 20min drive away), very.
I work from home and run the village shop and much of our stock is local which I collect. With out a working vehicle it would be very difficult (not impossible) too keep the shop.
On the plus side, I've access to loads of trails, the nearest is 50yards from my front door and it's possible to do a 30ish mile loop with about 90% off road.
Its not virtue signalling or anything else to describe to the OP MY lifestyle that means I can live happily without a car.
Its all about the choices you make.
Nice to see a couple of folk actually being honest about how much their cars cost them. Most folk are willfully blind over this. £3000 - 4000 a year is around the true cost to the owner of car ownership - of course if car drivers actually paid the fullcost to society of car ownership without massive subsidy from general taxationm it would be a lot more
whitestone - MemberGiven people's stated reliance, how much does anyone think they could reduce it by? Perhaps a better or more realistic approach than assuming that reduction == prohibition.
Could you maintain something close to your current lifestyle if, for example, you were only permitted ten car journeys per week? We'll dutifully avoid practicalities like "how would it be enforced?", let's just assume for the discussion that it could be.
I could cycle to work a bit more often, but realistically, i couldn't do much else than that to lower my use.