Forum menu
It's classic divide and rule isn't it. Let or make everyone else think that doctors are rolling in it, so you can beat them with a stick and nobody but a doctor will mind.
Doctors gave me back my leg. How do we help?
Because one thing we have too many of is GP trainees so we should definitely be discouraging them by slashing their pay...*Actually there's a recruitment crisis in GP training.
No one wants to do it any more. Which is a worry
Any wonder with the government doing this?
The general populous has some very misguided or ill-informed views on doctors
The general populous has some very misguided or ill-informed views on many junior professions in the public sector, whether they are doctors, teachers, paramedics, lawyers etc. They seem to think they are all on MPs salaries and perks.
For those who this will effect though Scotland looks even more appealing as the Scottish Government will not impose these changes, only England and Wales.
The general populous has some very misguided or ill-informed views on many junior professions in the public sector, whether they are doctors, teachers, paramedics, lawyers etc.
Yeah, I agree with this, particularly teachers. A friend recently became a lawyer and wanted to go into criminal law but the changes to legal aid have put him off.
Let or make everyone else think that doctors are rolling in it, so you can beat them with a stick and nobody but a doctor will mind.
Yep - see the recent nonsense about wanting a 24/7 NHS. Have you ever seen an A&E turning people away because it is closed for the night?
And if the doctors threaten to strike then they are just being greedy and "putting patients lives at risk".
A cynical person would say it is all part of a greater plan to privatise more of the NHS.
Doctors gave me back my leg. How do we help?
Don't buy the bullsh*t.
Let or make everyone else think that doctors are rolling in it, so you can beat them with a stick and nobody but a doctor will mind.
I often say to my patients (when they walk in with the daily fail in hand...groan) that the reason the NHS (and more recently, GPs) take such a beating in the press, is that it sells papers.
Basically, everyone has a GP, so to have
"[b]Your GP is a retarded paedophile[/b]" on the front page is going to get EVERYONE's ears pricked up, and sell the paper.
The title "[b]Your Nephro-oncologist ate my hamster[/b]" is going to appeal to only a minority of the population..hence be less lucrative a headline..
DrP
1 million dollars ?
Scotland
I am so going to Scotland if I can persuade the other half.
*Actually there's a recruitment crisis in GP training.
This underplays it somewhat. I believe that our local GP Speciality training was undersubscribed by 90% last year.
F1 (first year) is low twenties - which is less than first year Nurses.
F2 is high twenties.
After that it really depends where they go - GPs is mid-fifties, if they stay in hospitals they don't get quite as much initially, Consultants are the real Rock Stars up to £150k in the NHS, plus a bit of Private Practice.
GPs shouldn't feel too hard done by either - GP surgeries are privately owned and hardly stuck for business - the sky is the limit!
Most of my Outlaws are either Medics or in the Legal Profession, the lawyers make so much more it should make them blush
My Wife's Uncle is supposed to make about 500k to £1m a year.
Consultants are the real Rock Stars up to £150k in the NHS, plus a bit of Private Practice.
According to http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by-career/doctors/pay-for-doctors/ :
ConsultantsConsultants can earn a basic salary of between £75,249 and £101,451 per year, dependent on years of seniority in the consultant grade. Local and national clinical excellence awards may be awarded subject to meeting the necessary criteria.
And it is a very long road to get there.
101k is someone who has been a consultant for 19 years!
Consultants are the real Rock Stars up to £150k in the NHS, plus a bit of Private Practice.
£101k is the highest consultant salary. They can top that up through teaching/administration/research work but that's on top of their salaried role and is specifically intended to reduce the private practice they're doing.
http://bma.org.uk/practical-support-at-work/pay-fees-allowances/pay-scales/consultants-pay-england
Medical Students come out of Uni with 50k + debt.
Earn the wage as discussed above at FY1 (plus on call banding which can be up to 50%) however when you work 80hrs per week, that comes out as peanuts.
Plus then you have to factor in what it costs to be a doctor. Indemnity Insurance, Training Fees, only getting 1 year contracts so you can have a job in a hospital 1 year and then have to move 100's of miles for the next job the year after. It is not good work 14hr days + 2hrs each way commuting.
The 48hr week thing is pure bull. It is 'monitored' on a rolling 14 week period. It would not be uncommon for a Dr to do 14 days in a row without break, 10hrs + per day. Yes they do then get some time off but not enough to recover.
I am curious to how loaded people think consultants are though?
Edit: Ah I see we have now discussed consultants. Bear in mind doctors are the cream of the educational crop, along with lawyers, business directors etc, their pay is completely woeful in comparison.
Oh and the doctors that make money through Private Practice, yes they can make big money, but they work 7 days a week for it.
GrahamS - MemberDon't buy the bullsh*t.
It's not enough though is it? You need to convince millions of people that are getting spoonfed The Message. I don't know how this works, I've marched and fought for simple causes and they're simple to support but this is more complicated and more important, is there a campaign that give support to? Something you want burned down?
My mates just qualified to become a paramedic and his starting is about £22 I think.
He is one of the last few to be paid then. It's now pretty much Uni lead so you pay to become a Paramedic.
GPs shouldn't feel too hard done by either - GP surgeries are privately owned and hardly stuck for business - the sky is the limit!
Whereas [u]I[/u] never claim to feel hard done by, that's a bit like saying
"Bike shop owners shouldn't feel too hard done by either - Bike shops are privately owned and hardly stuck for business - the sky is the limit!"
Each has a limited source of income, and certain fluctuating expenses (mainly staff tbh). It's not the licence to print money like some think it is!
Don't worry about me though - as long as I've got my solid gold house and my rocket car, I'm a happy man..
[img] 
[/img]
DrP
Amazingly, however, all this medical poverty still doesn't seem to have solved the God complex drilled into all medics from an early age.
😉
The doctors do seem somewhat powerless. The BMA elected not to re-enter the recent negotiations, as far as I can tell because the starting position was too bad with no prospect of improvement. Doctors, in general, seem reluctant to strike not only because of the negative press but through genuine concern for patient safety. The gov't know this, and they have enough influence in the tabloids so can force through any new contract they want as they have done this week.
Combined with the trade unions bill the other day, it's looking like a very long time till the next General Election 🙁
Maninthenorth you are right to a point. Medicine by definition is making decisions often based on only a certain amount of information which may have massive consequences if you get it wrong.
That needs a certain amount of self belief. Fine line that though.
The contract changes plus pension changes plus med school fees are a disaster though. More and more of those leaving medical school are going overseas or leaving. Some rotas are now 50% vacant and getting worse....
Tongue somewhat less in cheek...
the general populous has some very misguided or ill-informed views on many junior professions in the public sector, whether they are doctors, teachers, paramedics, lawyers etc. They seem to think they are all on MPs salaries and perks.
Agreed. Part of the issue is a cultural lag: there was once a financial advantage to joining the professions, but most have changed so much that the advice of those who chose that path (and did ok) or wished they had is out of date by the time their offspring follow that advice into practice.
As someone who changed career away from being a lawyer, I already earn materially more by not using my professional qualifications directly. Had I done it sooner I'd be earning better still.
The only reason to join any of the professions - including medicine - is a vocation. If you want money, do something else.
@Jet26 - was a joke. I used to say it because those who become medics have usually spent their lives being told how clever they are and started to believe it, whereas now I think it's more to do with poor training on how best to communicate with patients. Limiting information and keeping it too high level no longer simplifies, and we all now know all too well that doctor no longer knows best.
It's not enough though is it? You need to convince millions of people that are getting spoonfed The Message. I don't know how this works, I've marched and fought for simple causes and they're simple to support but this is more complicated and more important, is there a campaign that give support to?
Good question - but aside from a few (largely pointless) petitions I haven't seen anything (just trawled through my missus' facebook posts to check 🙂 )
This petition did well:
[url= https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/104334 ]To debate a vote of no confidence in Health Secretary the Right Hon Jeremy Hunt (220,829 signatures)[/url]
They "debated" it and then pretty much repeated the government's position: People deserve a seven day NHS, which we'll somehow deliver with the same number of doctors and budget, and the doctors will [i]actually[/i] be much better off don't you know.
the general populous has some very misguided or ill-informed views on many [b]junior professions in the public sector[/b], whether they are doctors, teachers, paramedics, lawyers etc. They seem to think they are all on MPs salaries and perks.
Yeah, but they caused the financial crisis.
[url=
Toothless, tainted professional bodies who don't fairly represent or support the fragmented profession, and the bashing by the media will mean that the government can do whatever it likes to doctors. It all looks a bit 'every man for himself' across the board at the moment. Was humbled when talking to a surgeon recently, "to slow the devaluing of our profession all we can do is to continue to do the best job we possibly can and prove our worth". Sadly I think he'll need Murdoch and his mates onside too. I am not a doc, but wife and many friends are.
My other half is a teacher and I will argue all day long that she has it worse than junior doctors.
Do you know any junior doctors to make such a comparison? But go on, enlighten us to how you come to that conclusion?
There's a petition directed at the BMA in favour of strike action that's all over my Facebook today:
Currently just shy of 11k signatures. I'm probably not going to sign it but it is there.
Do you know any junior doctors to make such a comparison? But go on, enlighten us to how you come to that conclusion?
Er, I am one?
I would say, not having the MRCGP is no obstacle to a GP partnership, my wife's practice have been down two partners for ages and works 8 sessions and regularly works from 07:30 through to 21:30.
The money they have is spent on locums who won't do paperwork or check results!!
She is clinical lead for OOH services and they cant get doctors to work OOH as they can no longer afford the indemnity, its a problem that is going to get worse.
24/7 healthcare what a joke.
She doesn't get a six week holiday in summer.
Do you know any junior doctors to make such a comparison? But go on, enlighten us to how you come to that conclusion?
Er, I am one?
pwnage
She doesn't get a six week holiday in summer.
Neither do most teachers, if that's what you were inferring.
pwnage
5 years of med school were totally worth it for that one moment.
Neither do most teachers, if that's what you were inferring.
They do get 13 weeks "off" a year
This year, the wife spent:
* 2 separate weeks on outward bound courses with the kids (her choice you might say),
* two days in school for GCSE & A-level results,
* about 3 weekends providing DoE scheme leadership.
* another couple of weeks working on schemes of work and other stuff there isn't time for in term time.
Probably just enough time off to bring her under the working time directive laws.
I don't think you do either of those jobs to get rich (not that teaching was ever seen like that).
The Juniors are getting screwed.
Private work for many Consultants has all but evaporated - not that I have huge sympathy with them about this...
And us GPs who everyone thinks screwed the Labour Government in 2004 and made shedloads, are in fact now earning less after inflation than we were before 2004 and working 30-50% harder.
Some simple truths.
1) The NHS is too big a trainset for any new Government to leave alone. They just have to meddle. 👿
2) People are getting older, healthier and expecting more.
3) One of the most poorly thought of professions, Politicians, are deliberately running down the image and public opinion of Drs - one of the best thought of.
4) The NHS was probably at its best 4-5 years ago, and waiting list and quality-wise is beginiing to hit the buffers.
5) The 7 day NHS issue applies in every single country. We do not have the money or the manpower ready to solve it.
6) There is a huge huge recruitment crisis in General Practice, and for me, and a lot of my cohort in our last 10 years of practice (30 Doctoring down, hopefully 7-8 to go), the Government's behaviour, attitude to pensions and to "the 7 day NHS" is encouraging us to leave earlier than we would have, and not to consider working reduced hours etc.
My other half is a teacher and I will argue all day long that she has it worse than junior doctors.
Do you know any junior doctors to make such a comparison? But go on, enlighten us to how you come to that conclusion?
Er, I am one?
STW at its finest 🙂
6) There is a huge huge recruitment crisis in General Practice, and for me, and a lot of my cohort in our last 10 years of practice (30 Doctoring down, hopefully 7-8 to go), the Government's behaviour, attitude to pensions and to "the 7 day NHS" is encouraging us to leave earlier than we would have, and not to consider working reduced hours etc.
From your perspective, why is that? The new conditions? More 'glamorous' work elsewhere? Too much effort (certainly would be for me)? Leaving for overseas work (I know of 2 friends/relatives that have done this)?
It isn't enough.
I'm sure some people look at the wage at the higher end of the scale and think that is what 'all' doctors earn.
But to me, they are worth it.
On the other hand, if we look at the finance industry and what they earn, and contribute to society... I think that anyone who studies any form of finance, should work/earn the same as junior docs....
Doctors gave me back my leg. How do we help?
I bet they only stole it for a prank.
The problem with solving the shortage of doctors is that you are effectively arguing for people who get paid above average to be paid more. It's a hard sell.
Corbyn can get to lead the labour party on the back of scrapping benfits cuts and tax credits; grass roots funding for the NHS etc.
But you won't hear a single politician say the way to solve the GP crisis is to give GPs more money and better conditions. But that is probably what it would take in the long to attract more trainees and retain existing staff.
People have got to remeber that to become a doctor is bloody hard. You are competing for undergrads who can become anything they want, literally. Right now why you you chose to be a doctor for the NHS?
I come from a family of doctors but unfortunately I decided to go into Engineering. Don't feel sorry for Doctors. Sure life as a Junior Doctor is hard and not particularly well paid, but over their careers they will do very very well for themselves. My uncles are defiantly not short of a bob or two.
It's like any profession, some will be doing better than others. In Engineering some Engineers get paid a pittance, some own and run multi-billion dollar global companies.
My other half is a teacher and I will argue all day long that she has it worse than junior doctors.
Do you know any junior doctors to make such a comparison? But go on, enlighten us to how you come to that conclusion?
Er, I am one?STW at its finest
You must be a lazy junior doctor and your other half a crap teacher then 😉
I jest of course..
fair enough if thats your exp. I remember when my brother was a junior doctor the tales of hell he would comeout with relating to A&E on a sunday morning at 3am were eye opening.
At roughly the same time my mum returned to the teaching profession, can't ever remember her having to do 60 hour weeks, she had long holidays, never had to work at the weekend and was never threatened by drunken nutters looking for a scrap in the early hours.
And heres me thinking she was paid less as well!
edit...have we worked out how much they get paid yet. 22k starting salary is shocking if I've read that link correctly.
But you won't hear a single politician say the way to solve the GP crisis is to give GPs more money and better conditions. But that is probably what it would take in the long to attract more trainees and retain existing staff.
My theory on the attracting trainees bit is that the people who are pushed towards medicine in school are the sort of people for whom general practice is deeply unappealing.
Overwhelmingly most junior doctors I know are happiest when there's work to do, an intervention to be made a patient load to be managed and so on. They're very pro-active people.
The people* who are happiest getting to know long term patients, dealing with minor complaints and passing more serious conditions on to someone else have a very different mindset to what I'd say is typical.
*and out of probably 40 people I know making the choice this year or last I can think of three who are choosing GP.
The problem with solving the shortage of doctors is that you are effectively arguing for people who get paid above average to be paid more. It's a hard sell.
Yep. It's also partly why we struggle with publicly complaining about this in an organised manner. How can we as doctors, publicly whinge about pay when we earn more than the majority of the population? Yep, we probably could have done better paid jobs with our grades and results, yep this new contract is unfair and simply rude, yes we're undervalued compared to other countries but it's going to be hard to convince the public we deserve more without looking greedy.
Doctor wages in the UK are criminal for the training, level of responsibility and hours they work. As a comparator, in the US most of my Physician friends started straight out of medical school on around $140k a year, and the vast majority of them are now earning in excess of $350k a year.