I’m sure TJ (or Google) can advise on the legal basis everyone has to request a change in working schedule.
I'm not sure at all. I think you have the right to ask but they have the right to refuse.
My question is at what point do you say enough is enough when you don’t feel you’re enjoying your life outside work anymore because of it and can’t see any way to fix the cause of it?
At the point that you have just described. Your work life is ruining your non work life. That is the line crossed
At the OP, there's loads of excellent advice on this thread, just as there was when I posted a similar topic not long ago. I've not much to add other than a) it's not you, it's a society level problem we have with work and many people are affected and b) if you manage to follow just 10% of the advice here you'll feel a lot better... Use this space to talk to lots of people about what you're feeling (mates, family, GP, trusted mentor type people) and work towards a realisation that it's not inevitable to feel like this. Good luck. Happy if you want to pm me.
I was working a stupidly stressful job as a line damager until earlier this year. I'm still at the same place, but I've gone back to being a software engineer, and also went down to 4 days a week.
It's a lot less stressful and I get much more time to do what I want (I'm going to Afan tomorrow to be rained on). But I'm still not convinced I should not have just quit entirely.
Thanks all, I can't reply to everyone's post, but I have read them all and the advice is very welcomed and appreciated.
I also work in a property consultancy environment and have certainly found that the constant requirement to be ‘all things to all people’ can be absolutely brutal.
I spent 11yrs working for a large multinational followed by 8 yrs at an LLP, so I was either working my backside off for the benefit of shareholders or equity partners.
Yeah. It's the acting like every client you have is your only one even though they know they aren't. Fair play on setting up on your own terms I'm sure being personally invested in it is much more rewarding than doing it for the benefit of a handful of equity partners.
Overtime only exists because your employer doesn’t supply enough human labour to achieve the tasks in hand – IE not your problem.
That's not necessarily true, some people are piss poor at properly managing their time and workload. Given that, work out what you're actually capable of in the the hours you're paid for and do about 75% of that normally. Occasionally work flat and do overtime out but accept that it's not sustainable.
I’m not sure at all. I think you have the right to ask but they have the right to refuse.
Flexible Working is a legal right. They have a right to refuse but "we don't want you to" isn't good enough, they have to evidence why you can't.
Of course, theory and practice...
My question is at what point do you say enough is enough when you don’t feel you’re enjoying your life outside work anymore because of it and can’t see any way to fix the cause of it?
About that point perhaps, because your life outside work is too important.
I've made an effort to avoid true work stress and the reason why is it almost killed my father when he was my age - stress-related heart attack from work pressures and how that relates to family life, when I was about 13. Always felt like I owe it to him to learn from his experience. Plus, a dose of teenage "F you" to companies that operate in that way, put unrealistic pressures on people and have that effect on a family, something that I never lost. There's a difference between high aims that are supported and motivate you and relentless 'Sell Sell Sell!!!' or impossible tasks and measures pressure. Get out if you can. Work for good people.
PS a relative of mine is in Commercial Property Surveying. He's getting closer to early retirement and has moved around in recent years to manage stress and working environments, he was at one of the largest companies for a long time. If it's a similar industry (think so from posts above?) PM if a linkedin connection might help for a connection and a chat. He's a good guy and very easy to talk to about things like this.
I have tried that TJ, and the response is usually ‘all of them’ !!
I find laughing at this point never fails.
Followed by a "seriously"
Followed by one or more of the tasks failing.
One of the other things that has worked for me in the past with a manager with his head in the sand is 1-1 with their manager to ensure they are aware of the issues brewing and potential impact to business - they weren't. Changes were made and quickly.
Long as you can account for your time so it's worth keeping a tally of the hours spent on tasks.
Occasionally I'll do short periods of longer work for circumstances out of companies control such as my colleague having a stroke and no one else in the dept having the skills to cover - while we train someone....but long term - ie over a month it is not sustainable and management knows this - they are taking the piss .... How much extra hours are they doing to help out ?
To those just saying “just leave it at home” or variations thereof, I’d love to understand how because that is not easy for some of us.
This to me is the hardest part. I did many years in a company, on higher roles and wages than now where there was somewhat of an expectation to be able to available after hours. Because we were US owned and HQ'ed, but I worked for the European Operation, our day kind of eased in from 8am, but then wasn't unusual to get a 'really need some info' type requests up to 9 or 10pm, during the East Coast working day. Most of the time 'lack of planning on your side does not.....' but it came with the territory and I allowed it. Yes, should have turned phones and whatever off, but that wasn't how to get on.... and I ended up burning out. Learning 1.
So now i don't have that issue - we still do longer hours from time to time (if your experiment has just started to show the signal you wanted at 3pm, you don't turn it off at half four so you can be neatly out of the door at 5) but it's easier to choose. But after 20 years my brain hasn't retrained itself, and sometimes I'm sat eating dinner or whatever, and a thought comes into my head and if I don't act on it then it'll still be bouncing around hours later, coming back up to the top, waking me up....etc. So it's easier to spend 15 mins going and checking or sending the email (even just writing it to send the next morning - how daft is that, I don't want the company to think 'Oh look, who's sending emails at 9'o clock again!' - either from a Billy Bigbollocks POV, or even because them my team think they have to do the same)
So yeah - I'd love two brains, one for work and one for home. Or some techniques for switching off that really work and can reverse 20+ years of ingrained bad habits. I've tried having a notebook and just jotting it down but it doesn't really work. Any ideas.
The other thing I struggle with is - if I'm going on holiday for a week or two. It's always stressful in the run up to get things done or in a shape where the person covering doesn't think '****! what a shitshow this is!' and then on holiday part of it will be spent being 'not present' because the mind's gone off onto thinking of how much catching up there is to do. I'm a silly early riser anyway, wife and kids will be at least 3 hours later, is it so bad to use those 2-3 hours to keep on top of a bit of stuff so it isn't such a problem when I'm back. Rhetorical question - my boss and HR business partner are horrified but I tell them I'm a grown up and should be free to make my own choices. But deep down I know they're right, and I need protecting from myself.
^^I could have written that, I’m desperately getting my work in order before going on hols next week, but knowing that customer visits and demos need arranging taking my company iPad to keep an eye on things. I can’t afford for the process to **** up politically or because I’m in sales so it my wages (commission) at stake.
@theotherjohnv the notebook did not work for me either but I’ve taken to using my personal phone - I use it for my morning alarm so it’s bedside anyway - to WhatsApp myself to my work phone at night. Seems to work in a logical fashion, can’t say it’s reduced my stress levels.
Also to the above point, having taken on a Senior Management role with a failed company strategy behind it, I’m also thinking I’ll go down the promotional ladder back to individual contributor, but in September will also explore typical post sales job roles in other parts of the business to remove the sales stress.
Recent CBT reinforced the things that work for me - the worry tree and stress buckets mainly, and promote the acceptance theory E.g. “it is what it is” that TJ iterates, but as much as that feels like a nirvana state of achievement for me, I find that very hard.
I’m also thinking I’ll go down the promotional ladder
This also worked for me. I took promoted posts beyond my abilities. That was the stressor. I stepped back down and was much happier.
I found it much better to be a decent staff nurse highly skilled for the work I was doing and able to act as advisor / mentor to those less experienced rather than being a mediocre at best charge nurse
I think the expectation that you should strive to get ahead, be promoted etc can be very damaging - it certainly was for me
the acceptance theory E.g. “it is what it is” that TJ iterates,
I wish I could describe / tell how I reached that point but I just cannot. I think part of it was also being more comfortable in my skin and accepting that I was better suited to a more junior role but also a part of it was knowing I had done my best and that I could do no more. Maybe also being comfortable with putting difficult decisions to those above me and seeking support
Of course healthcare is probably less cutthroat that some of the jobs you guys have - more collaborative and supportive.
I’m not very good at prioritising tasks, and all the managers I’ve ever had have been shit at it too so not really had any good mentors to teach me it.
The key thing for me was when I gained a Manager who actually understood how to lead, and once I'd learned that, life became so much more easier - wish though I'd not worked for 20 years before I met him.
Key handover from my 'mentor', write down your work in priority order and the ones that you must deliver are the ones that if you don't your immediate boss gets 'sacked'. I've worked like this for the last 20 years and while the approach does mean I'm never a 'golden boy' it also means I usually actually deliver what is really needed.
I am though unmanageable, and I'm 100% aware - but also approaching retirement, so kinda don't care.
One more thing, be an early starter - in fact be the first in, that way no one knows when you started and if anyone comments on you finishing "early", you can retort (loudly) with a "I was here when you were still in your cot" or equivalent - no one will say anything again of when you leave/sign-off.
airvent
Free Member
I have tried that TJ, and the response is usually ‘all of them’ !!
That them trying to avoid the responsibility of making the decision and palm it off onto you. You need a script.
"Of course I understand you would like all of them but given we have X many hours and task 1. Takes Y hours 2. Takes Z hours etc what would you like me to prioritise" then just keep pushing and when they finally respond make sure you put it in a email.
If they absolutely refuse again put in a email so that it's is down that they refused to make a decision and that you will be prioritising task 3,5 and 7 as you have had no guidance. Keep pushing back.
As for leaving things at work it is as with many things a phycological trick. When you feel the stress rise you have to make a conscious effort to say it doesn't matter. Remember, it doesn't actually matter. You can get a new job quickly if you are fired. Don't keep pandering. You have to leave the phone at home, turn it off, turn it on silent, go for a walk where there is no signal (or pretend you did). When asked why didn't you answer the phone just say sorry I was not available. No need to go into excuse mode. No need to give details calmly apologse. Say less. This may produce a more aggressive response but keep calm, it's now them that are stressing, you are now winning. Stay calm, stay polite do not waver from your boundaries.
The advice to 'switch off after work' isn't necessarily helpful, although it may be. If you are part of a team of people who need to get things done, then simply downing tools at 5pm may cause them a great deal of stress. That would be far more difficult and stressful for me to do than simply doing the work. I would be eaten up thinking that I had ****ed everyone over.
In fact, that would remove any kind of satisfaction from my job, and for me at least job satisfaction is a massive contribution to my wellbeing, given that I have to work. Don't get me wrong, if I didn't have to work I wouldn't, but given that I do I need to feel like I'm an appreciated part of a team.
What would fix that problem is if you could convince your whole team to down tools at 5pm, or otherwise resist the ever increasing demands of management.
Reading this thread, i think there's either something wrong with many of you, or on the flip-side, maybe i'm completely abnormal.
I'm going on holiday today for 11 days... i can't say work will enter my mind for a single second until i get up at 6am on the day of turning the laptop back on. My work life and home life don't cross. We do 'on-call' stuff which means i can be called any time of day or night, but get paid for it. However it doesn't trouble me.
I do feel really sorry for some of the posters in here though, it must be a tough existence being like that... 🙁
The advice to ‘switch off after work’ isn’t necessarily helpful, although it may be. If you are part of a team of people who need to get things done, then simply downing tools at 5pm may cause them a great deal of stress. That would be far more difficult and stressful for me to do than simply doing the work. I would be eaten up thinking that I had **** everyone over.
This just perpetuates the issues. "A team who needs to get things done" In paid time. Outside of paid time it is unhelpful to do this. It is presentism and very damaging to individuals and organisation. As team leader you should be setting as example. As one of the team you should not be working unpaid overtime. Everyone should be downing tools at 5pm so thenyou are not effing anyone over. If they are working unpaid overtime then its their fault for doing so not yours for leaving on time
Of course if its a critical point / deadline its perfectly accceptable to do this for a short time. But its never acceptable to do this on a regular basis or it becomes normalised ( which it seems to have been for you)
This is one of the major reasons IMO why we have this huge epidemic of stress related illness in the UK. The culture of presenteeism has become normalised in many sectors
this is not a personal attack Molgrips - its asking you to look at this from another direction. BY working like you suggest you are actually increasing the stress and risk of burnout for everyone. working long hours reduces productivity hugely especially where you need to be creative infinding solutions.. tired and stressed folk make poor decisions and higher brain function is reduced
If you are part of a team of people who need to get things done, then simply downing tools at 5pm may cause them a great deal of stress.
Personally I don't think the issue is necessarily doing work outside of work hours, it's the environment around that expectation that causes the stress. Some jobs have longer hours built in, they just do. How that's managed by the wider team and recognised by your direct managers either relives or causes stress. If it's a case of managers recognising that you're doing longer hours and making sure that you're compensated either by money or TOIL, then that takes away some of the issue, but if it's "just part of the job, get on with it" then you're within your rights to sack it off.
Stress is also insidious – it builds up on you and becomes the new normal. Its only really when you remove the stressor that you realise how badly you are effected
This is so true, I worked for a year on a project going from a complete buzz getting up to speed working 10 hours a day to needing to work 10 hours a day to cover 7 hours of calls/meetings and actually doing some work or I'd miss key deadlines. I could probably have reached out for more help but all asks for more resource were met with "there is none" or worse, getting resource with no idea who needed to take productive people out to bring them up to speed, all of this with no change to deadlines.
It ended up making me leave the company. I'm now in a spell where I've got that level of work for two weeks in a bit of a peak and I'm knackered, no idea how I functioned at that level for a full year looking back. I still keep in touch with people I worked with and that project has effectively been shelved due to issues I'd flagged up and they ignored!!
If you have a look around you in your current role you've flagged there are people doing stupid hours, are there also people coasting? Are there people who have the balance right and are still performing? Are they on performance reviews? If you can try and properly detach yourself from the situation it'll all look a lot clearer, that could be writing down everything that is right and wrong in your opinion and start to move that around into buckets or perceived or actual so you can focus on what is real and change your internal language on the perceived issues - they may happen, but they also may not and you can deal with them when they do become real...
Prefacing with: I consider myself lucky to have been able to do this and appreciate that not all organisations and managers are so accommodating, but one thing I've been able to do since lockdown (and hence a general move to a lot more WFH than the previous 5 days in the office) was (being an early riser anyway) replacing the morning commute with being at my desk by 0730 - I didn't really have enough time to do anything else (but also don't have a school run or kids needing my attention in the mornings bar the occasional late-running grumpy teenager needing a lift somewhere). I found it to be really helpful in giving me a precious hour before anyone else gets on my case to just deal with 'stuff' that needs focus or is the kind of admin that's essential but will always take a back seat to important meetings / firefighting / looking after other people in a servant-leader / SME capacity. It gets it off the desk and importantly out of my mind. I also empower my team so they are able to make decisions and trust their own judgment so I get involved when I need to but don't micro manage or worry too much about what's going on day to day.
However I found that I'd still be in demand beyond the end of 'my' working day purely based on hours, which is easy to do once I'm in work mode and again don't have to switch off to do a commute home...
But what it did allow me to do (and again with the support of a really good manager) was recognise that based on hours I could easily do 2 x 4 day weeks each month without really noticing. Some weeks I do all the jobs that would otherwise have to be done at the weekend, so the weekend is free (although never my own do to aforementioned teenagers), some weeks I ride, walk, do whatever else I feel like doing for fun, some weeks I just laze around if I feel especially shattered after the 4 day week (I try to not feel too guilty about 'wasting' the day when I do that as it sets me up for a more productive weekend spending time with my wife or whatever)..
Anyway the point was I managed to find a bit of precious time back without it feeling more onerous...
The advice to ‘switch off after work’ isn’t necessarily helpful, although it may be. If you are part of a team of people who need to get things done, then simply downing tools at 5pm may cause them a great deal of stress.
Perhaps it's a bad term. Maybe a better way of saying it is separate work from rest of life, don't place your worth in your just job. Different if you are s of employed or own the business but if it's just a job don't define yourself by it. Your job is a lot less important than you think (unless you're a doctor or nurse or one of the very few jobs that actually matter) software engineer, property whatever, accountant etc don't count. The separation is to allow you to say no, it's not necessary to walk out at 17:00 but to be able to place limits without guilt.
If you are part of a team of people who need to get things done, then simply downing tools at 5pm may cause them a great deal of stress.
If you're responsible for the rest of the team's wellbeing, then you're responsible for making sure they, too, are not chronically overworking. If you're not responsible for the rest of the team, then this is not your problem. Adding another martyr to the fire doesn't save Joan of Ark.
Teacher here. Use to enjoy it but now management keep changing things every year forcing me to re write my course every September. Went down to 3 days a week just to have time to live which helped a lot. Been looking to get out of teaching for a few years but no luck yet.
Overtime only exists because your employer doesn’t supply enough human labour to achieve the tasks in hand – IE not your problem.
My employer (a school) can’t recruit enough staff, and I know it is a national problem. As a result everyone works much harder covering the gaps, it becomes everyone’s problem.
clink - that is indeed a tricky one because otherwise the kids suffer which is rather different from missing a deadline. However do it to much or too long your effectiveness suffers which also damages the kids.
This also worked for me. I took promoted posts beyond my abilities. That was the stressor. I stepped back down and was much happier.
I found it much better to be a decent staff nurse highly skilled for the work I was doing and able to act as advisor / mentor to those less experienced rather than being a mediocre at best charge nurse
I think the expectation that you should strive to get ahead, be promoted etc can be very damaging – it certainly was for me
Especially when many companies/organisations do nothing to facilitate their staff to develop the skills to climb that ladder.
The "You are a good {insert role} therefore you'll make a good manager and leader of those roles" fallacy has deep roots.
Coming from an organisation where skills and leadership development are a cultural norm into organisations that don't give a **** on the whole, or don't take it seriously has been a culture shock.
In three years I've been witnessed so much potential burned due to a lack of support for development, poor culture, and the worst leadership I've ever had the displeasure of being in the presence of.
Relapsed mandalorian IIRC you are ex services?
In three years I’ve been witnessed so much potential burned due to a lack of support for development, poor culture, and the worst leadership I’ve ever had the displeasure of being in the presence of.
Must have been a bit of a culture shock to you 🙂 Just think of us poor civilians with a whole career of it
If they absolutely refuse again put in a email so that it’s is down that they refused to make a decision and that you will be prioritising task 3,5 and 7 as you have had no guidance. Keep pushing back.
This is a useful trick which I've used a lot when you want to do something and you need to manage a Manager who isn't doing any managing. "This thing needs doing, I'm going to do it tomorrow unless you tell me not to."
As for leaving things at work it is as with many things a phycological trick. When you feel the stress rise you have to make a conscious effort to say it doesn’t matter. Remember, it doesn’t actually matter.
...
If you are part of a team of people who need to get things done,
There are exceptions of course, but for most people's jobs it genuinely doesn't matter. What actually needs to be done?
With apologies to Iain M Banks: It was 4pm when the core switch exploded. It took out all the networking in the building and the telephone system for the entire company. I grabbed a tame network engineer, a phone tech, a manager and a screwdriver and threw myself into the middle of it all. I worked a good degree of overtime that night (ironically on the same day that we had a company-wide email saying that all overtime had to be preauthorised).
But, it was an extraordinary event which I had to respond to (technically I didn't, but I was the person best equipped to do it). If that's just what your working day looks like every day then something is very wrong. If you're on holiday and thinking about work, unless you're the CEO or suchlike, something is very wrong. Being loyal to a company is great, but vanishingly few companies will reciprocate that loyalty.
As I said, there are exceptions of course, the school example above, or I have a friend who works with animals and she can't just not feed them because it's gone 5pm. But for many people things that "need" doing probably don't, and for the ones that do it's likely nothing that a recruitment drive wouldn't fix. In the grand scheme of things, we're just not that important.
The “You are a good {insert role} therefore you’ll make a good manager and leader of those roles” fallacy has deep roots.
There's a name for this, it's called the Peter Principle (though I don't know why). It states that people will be promoted to their level of incompetence. Middle Management is stuffed to the gills with people who are former engineers, salespeople, customer services etc. and I know a lot more bad ones than good ones.
Peter Principle (though I don’t know why)
Because it was a book written by a chap called Lawrence Peter
