And what if it's the uniform? Personally, I think uniform is pretty pathetic - but then the world turns on these shallow outward showings of power, or impracticality [see suits:
"I'm soooo rich and important I don't have to wear practical clothes that facilitate my life and hard manual work because I have lots of do$h and can pay plebs to do it for me"
]
I hate dressing up. Really fracking hate it.
Trouble is, I went to the shops last night to pick up some casual gear for wearing in the office (think chinos and casual shirts rather than shorts and t-shirts) and I actually gave up and resigned myself to wearing suits. Everything either made me look like some sort of preppy Yank, or an absolute fud
Probably should have tried somewhere other than ASDA.
Probably should have tried somewhere other than ASDA.
I think I did a tour of every high st shop in Scotland last night, which reminded me why I never go shopping.
All my clothing purchases are outdoor wear, going to TISO outdoor experience is far more fun that John Lewis/M&S/Zara etc on a Thursday night! 🙂
What you do in your own time is entirely up to you, but if you came into my office wearing a Polo Shirt I'd be the first to point & laugh.
I arrange all my corporate business in a polo shirt (banks, insurance companies, brokers etc)
Nobody points and laughs.
But then I am very good at my job and people seem to want my services. So they judge me on that rather than on some strange set of clothing snobbery rules.
I arrange all my corporate business in a polo shirt (banks, insurance companies, brokers etc)
I assume you're doing this for your own business though? Therefore you're the client and can wear whatever the heck you want + there are varying degrees of "corporate".
To use an extreme example, Bobs Widgets v JP Morgan will involve different client, different advisory firms, different contact partners/reps, different cultures and therefore different dress.
As odd as it may seem, when I was in private practice I probably wouldn't dress the same to meet with a director of clinical services at hospital as I would a director of the EIB. both "public sector" employees, both involved in the same deal, both with entirely different expectations of what is appropriate business dress for a meeting. Not always, but most of the time. Sad, but that's the world we live in.
These days I care less and just wear a plain suit and plain shirt to pretty much anything. Easier 🙂
If he's selling his services, doesn't that make them the client?
If he's selling his services, doesn't that make them the client?
If he's arranging banks, insurance etc, then it sounds like they are the ones providing their business to him?
I assume you're doing this for your own business though? Therefore you're the client and can wear whatever the heck you want + there are varying degrees of "corporate".
No. They are my Clients.
I'll not be wearing trousers again till October (bar next Friday which is my wedding). Been in shorts since about July. They get washed as needed, which in the recent humidity has been every 3-4 days. In winter I wash my jeans once a week.
I wear jeans until they are dead, but rotate a few pairs. washing them is purely an emergency procedure, food, blood etc. T shirts and shirts between one and three days depending on what I have been doing. Shower twice a day, eat healthily and use deodorant, body spray etc.
Some of you genuinely scare me. Incinerating shirts after an hours use, totalitarian dress codes that must be adhered to, shirt and trouser based rules. Madness!
Never understood workplace dress rules outside of safety wear and police, paramedics etc. Do suits or smart trousers bestow powers on the wearer that they would not possess if wearing shorts or jeans?
How some of you can ride a mountain bike without dying from the horror of it all is beyond me. Chain grease, lubricant, dirty, sweaty grips, nature in all its abhorrent, muddy, watery glory. Minging 🙂
I don't wear trousers.
But then I am very good at my job and people seem to want my services. So they judge me on that rather than on some strange set of clothing snobbery rules.
Same here. In fact if anything there's a possible counter snobbery in some environments. If for instance I see a scientist in a suit, it starts raising alarm bells that they may be concerned about things other than the task in hand.
Do suits or smart trousers bestow powers on the wearer that they would not possess if wearing shorts or jeans?
Client/business expectations.
When you employ a [insert random tradesman] to do a bit of work for £500, you don't mind if he turns up in a battered van, in his jeans and t-shirt. However, if he turned up in nice van, in a nice polo shirt with his company name on it, he'd probably have exceeded your expectations. You don't necessarily expect him to turn up like that because it's not the norm.
Imagine you're spending £5m on legal/financial services on behalf of your company. If the people you had just hired turned up to the first meeting with the directors (your bosses) wearing jeans and t-shirts when everyone else is dressed in business dress. How would you feel? Does that meet your expectations of someone who you are about to hand over £5m to for their advice? Sure, you can say "who cares what they wear, all i care about is the quality of the advice". That whole argument is total bullshit, I cringe whenever I hear it, it's only valid once you've proven yourself and in may cases that's AFTER you've done the work for the client. Doing many types of business in this country has been done in formal business attire since god knows when. It's disrespectful to your client to turn up for a meeting wearing what you'd wear to the pub on a saturday. If their expectation is that you wear a suit, you wear a suit. If they don't care, then it's up to your company to decide what sort of image they want to project.
It's all about expectations. If you think you can abolish hundreds of years of etiquette and tradition by being the guy who turns up in jeans and a t-shirt, you're wrong. And whilst that tradition still exists, there is an expectation that you'll observe it. People make judgments about people around them. What are you trying to say about your professional attitude/business by ignoring social norms? That you're a maverick? That you're so good that you don't need to wear a suit and the people who've just given you loads of cash should look past that the first time they meet you?
I still don't get what's so wrong with sticking on a suit and shirt. Hardly top and tails is it?
I don't wear trousers.
but if you came into my office wearing a Polo Shirt I'd be the first to point & laugh.Bravo to you sir. I don't own any trousers or suits. The only time I foresee buying a suit is if I change jobs and need one for interviews. Even then I will resent every minute of wearing it.
Really? You would point and laugh at somebody for wearing an item of clothing you don't like. If you are seven then I apologise, otherwise.....really? 😯
Really? You would point and laugh at somebody for wearing an item of clothing you don't like. If you are seven then I apologise, otherwise.....really?
This is STW, there's plenty on here who laugh at people based on the wheel choice they make for their mountain bike 🙂
That said, i think bikebouy may have been joking
At one of my previous employers, we used to have regular "dress down" days. I don't recall anyone suddenly becoming less competent or professional just because they weren't wearing a piece of knotted cloth around their neck that day.
peterfile - don't want to quote your entire post above. I fully understand where you are coming from and respect your opinion, but personally I couldn't care less what another individual chooses to wear regardless of what I was paying them to do. Their ability to provide the results I wanted or paid for would genuinely be my only concern. Fella rocks up to do the plumbing dressed all smart, doesn't make him a good plumber! 🙂
This is STW, there's plenty on here who laugh at people based on the wheel choice they make for their mountain bike
I am still quite new around these parts, but slowly getting used to it 🙂
but personally I couldn't care less what another individual chooses to wear regardless of what I was paying them to do. Their ability to provide the results I wanted or paid for would genuinely be my only concern.
I think that's what I was getting at. Until you've got your results, you have no proof of their ability, so you go what's available to you, part of that is your impression of them.
What it boils down to more than anything else, is that for some businesses, it's just the done thing. Challenging it doesn't really bring any benefit to be honest, no matter how stupid or pointless it seems.
I could turn up to my current employer wearing causal clothes, but i would be taken for a quiet word if i went to meet a client like that, my employer expects its staff to wear suits. My previous employer would have thrown me down the lift shaft if i'd even turned up to the office in casual wear. Crazy, but not really my choice!
If i could wear shorts to work i would 🙂 Would probably make me work better too since i'd be more comfortable!
EDIT: it's also occurred to me that my own experiences might be a bit non representative since almost all of my dealings with people in a business context will be with other professional advisers or banks, so it's probably a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy!
but if you came into my office wearing a Polo Shirt I'd be the first to point & laugh.
Where I work our CEO and CFO often turn up wearing Polo shirts.....
I'll tell you what's minging.. Wearing the same gym gear 5 days in a row before washing it at the end of the week. It stinks.
Where I work our CEO and CFO often turn up wearing Polo shirts.....
Same here. Generally, the higher up they are, the more relaxed the dress. Our CEO wears a mankini 😉
Its both your points to some degree. We probably all care, to some degree, what someone looks like if it is all we have to go on. However we should also know it does not actually matter as to how good they are at the job.all of my dealings with people in a business context will be with other professional advisers or banks, so it's probably a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy!
Oh absolutely, I'm not for one second suggesting there is any link between competency and dress.
It's just that initially, you might not have a lot to go on, so why go challenging the business/social norm before you've even had the chance to prove your worth? Surely it doesn't help?
My suits get dry cleaned once or maybe twice a year, but I do have 2 pairs of trousers to each jacket. New shirt every day, I'm actually a bit shocked that some people don't do that. My jeans will be washed probably 3or 4 times in their lifetime. Casual t-shirts may get anywhere from 1-3 days, sniff-test dependant.
Anyway, shouldn't it be [i]"For how long do you keep on your trousers?"[/i]
It's all about expectations. If you think you can abolish hundreds of years of etiquette and tradition by being the guy who turns up in jeans and a t-shirt, you're wrong. And whilst that tradition still exists, there is an expectation that you'll observe it. People make judgments about people around them. What are you trying to say about your professional attitude/business by ignoring social norms? That you're a maverick? That you're so good that you don't need to wear a suit and the people who've just given you loads of cash should look past that the first time they meet you?
What it's really worth remembering is that the social norms for *your* business are not necessarily the same as for other peoples business. People in other professions who do not wear suits really do get given loads of cash by other people not wearing suits. They do tend then employ people wearing suits to sort out the paperwork though, which might be why people wearing suits often think all business is conducted by people wearing suits 🙂
Edit:
Ah just saw this -
EDIT: it's also occurred to me that my own experiences might be a bit non representative since almost all of my dealings with people in a business context will be with other professional advisers or banks, so it's probably a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy!
Sorry!, yes that's made my post redundant 🙂
Peterfile - large US corporate consultancy here and exactly the same as you. Sure, some clients may come in casual dress but that's their call. We have a smart business dress code, like it or lump it and the 50,000 plus employees get on with it just fine.
New shirt every day, I'm actually a bit shocked that some people don't do that. My jeans will be washed probably 3or 4 times in their lifetime. Casual t-shirts may get anywhere from 1-3 days, sniff-test dependant.
To me that just seems inconsistent, eg I'd wash whatever top I wore (shirt, T shirt, etc) after one day and whatever trousers after a few days (no more than 5, less in summer). So I don't really understand the new shirt every day, but only wash jeans every month or so (or poss longer)?
What it's really worth remembering is that the social norms for *your* business are not necessarily the same as for other peoples business.
I think we were talking about "business dress" though Ian, which has a pretty well established meaning. I'm well aware not everyone who works in "business" wears a suit, I work in the construction industry 🙂
And again, it comes down to expectations. You don't expect your plumber to wear a suit, but you would expect someone turning up to represent you in court to do so.
AI like the clear boundary between work and home that the dress code contributes to. I don't wear a suit at home and I don't wear t shirts in the office.
Simple footflaps, my shirts tend to be on the verge of smelly after a day, t shirts made from other materials seem to last longer, and jeans don't get smelly unless you spill something on them.
I was just gonna post same as footflaps. I'll be honest I'd assumed until now the not washing jeans thing was people going with a joke image of funky jeans, it just dawned on me its serious. I'm not comfortable with not washing suit trousers more than twice a year, but don't wear a suit so... you know, whatever. And I understand wool is totally different to the fabrics I typically wear - so experience may when/if the day comes change my mind*. But never or only rarely washing jeans, I, personally couldn't do it.
FWIW if I was wearing suit its probable I'd be earning enough, or be in a serious enough role, I'd do daily shirts, or at least consider it/ re-appraise the decision.
my shirts tend to be on the verge of smelly after a day
sounds like the right choice, for you.
jeans don't get smelly unless you spill something on them
Oh mine do...
Aside from the various judgement calls, I think this is one of those everyone is different (physically, and also mentally 😉 ), shocker - threads. the above being really interesting case in point, however I don't wear a jacket, and shave my pits.
I'd expect them to wear a gown, and a silly wig. 😀but you would expect someone turning up to represent you in court to do so.
Jeans not washed for 15 months have same bacterial content as jeans 2 weeks after washing...
[url] http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=12722442 [/URL]
I think that's what I was getting at. Until you've got your results, you have no proof of their ability, so you go what's available to you, part of that is your impression of them.
I honestly think that your profession will play a big part in it. I would imagine banking has more traditional rules compared to my line of work. I work for a large and ever expanding online retailer and from the owners on down casual dress is the name of the game.
Some choose to wear shirts and trousers, others don't. I am in a position where I regularly meet customers and suppliers, deal with HR situations etc. I do this whilst wearing jeans, a casual shirt and sometimes sporting a beard of biblical proportions.
It makes for some interesting departmental meetings. Two people dressed smart, one in shorts, three wearing jeans and so on. It does seem to put everybody on an even footing though and meetings have a more relaxed atmosphere than some places I have worked in.
As long as people have good personal hygiene and don't roll out the leather chaps it's all good to me 😀
Funkmasterp
Any jobs going? sounds my kind of place! 😮
FunkmasterpAny jobs going? sounds my kind of place!
😀 it's one of very few positive things about working there to be honest.
Jeans not washed for 15 months have same bacterial content as jeans 2 weeks after washing
He washed out stains and also placed them in the freezer to kill bacteria so not that surprising tbh
Bet they have more than some that have just been washed
scotroutes, It's possible the title's wording was deliberate 🙂
The Edinburgh Defence?
Shirley not!
Ok, someone has to explain this to me now.
Aaah, but I did that with the socks already. And I was joking! Two days at the most, and only if there's nothing else in my handbag.
[b]I like the clear boundary between work and home[/b] that the dress code contributes to. I don't wear a suit at home and I don't wear t shirts in the office.
I find the fact that the two buildings look entirely different is enough to be honest.
