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I was once asked how to get to 'Bicker-Nack-Re'. Took me a while to work out he wanted to get to Bicknacre (bick-nay-ker), but I could see his point.
but there comes across an overall attitude that you have no business to be speaking Welsh if you're English. To be honest molgrips, your post doesn't do much to improve this impression.
Well I dunno about that - on this thread I am trying to help people get it right, and I always do that in real life. I only get crabby when people take the piss continually - I don't think that's particularly outrageous. Many times when people have asked me how to pronounce something and I reply, they burst out laughing and say "WHAT???!!HAHAHA what the hell was that?!" rather than making the effort. It gets on your nerves after the hundredth time. That might be why locals get grumpy sometimes.
If you want pronunciation guides there are any number online, so you could always look there. There's only two sounds that aren't in English, and only one of those is a noise you don't know how to make.
Although perhaps a deeper reason for Welsh people being grumpy towards outsiders is that the piss is continually being taken, usually without any kind of respect given in turn.
Yeah, but people who take the piss so much look like narrow minded idiots. You have to learn to rise above it and not let them get to you.
The language does seem a bit difficult to grasp to the English, which I think the natural reaction is to laugh.
I'm with ksba, the correct pronunciation is Doll-ga-loo
Dol
Hmm I'm with traildog i think, Im fairly sure most English just can't quite figure out how they're meant to be said and since they rarely come into contact with such sounds they just give it their own twist. Like people saying crossonts for those little french bready things 🙂
We laugh because we struggle to see the link between what is written and what is being said, and often it seems even locals cant decide on how it's said, so how are we meant to say it without looking a tool? I'm sure most of the time the laugh is one of embarrassment at their lack of understanding and trying to cover it with bravado.
I hated french lessons because I couldnt stand the sounds in the language, I felt so "wrong" when using it that I just stopped trying, but didnt have any of that with German. Russian is the same, if someone puts a russian word in front of you and tells you what it says you just cant help but giggle as it looks nothing like it's written, and chinese just takes that one step further.
[i]And while we're on the subject, C-y-B the first word is NOT Code it is Coed, like coy but with a d at the end. [/i]
That annoys me too, people saying co-ed when it is, as you correctly say, 'coyd'. The other one that gets me is people saying 'betsy' (as in betsy co-ed) when it's actually 'bet-uss uh coyd'
I always liked Welsh although I never really got much beyond a dozen phrases and maybe 30-40 words. The problem is that a lot of English people don't speak any other language and, while some will make an effort for going on holiday abroad, most wouldn't even think about learning anything in Welsh (or Gaelic for that matter) since everyone in Wales, Scotland and Ireland speaks English anyway. That may not be the correct attitude but it's the way things are.
Previous addresses have included
Heol Doll, Machynlleth. (Hay-ol Doth) (Ma-kun-thleth)
Wallog (Wathlog)
And to finish I give you...
Gillfach yr Allt, Llanddeusant, Llangadog, Llanymddyfri Sir Gaerfyrddin.
. The other one that gets me is people saying 'betsy' (as in betsy co-ed) when it's actually 'bet-uss uh coyd'
Never once heard it pronounced like that, and spent a fair amount of time there!
,
Oops, I forgot the comma before Sir. Sorry.
Well my cousins from Penmachno pronounce coyd as co-ed, so they pronounce Betwys Y Coed as bettus uh co-ed, Mrs catfood is from west Wales and pronounces coed as coyd, so I`d say both ways are correct.
oooh [url= http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/fun/welsh/Lesson01.html ]this[/url] is handy, with audio too!
Llangadog, Llanymddyfri Sir Gaerfyrddin.
Or, Llangattock, Llandovery, Carmarthenshire 🙂
I agree crazy-legs - all I'd ask is a bit of open-mindedness and effort. I once spent about 45 minutes on a ferry having someone from Turku in Finland tell me how to pronounce it properly. Because I care - I really do.
Because I care - I really do.
Most English don't care though, and deal with "foreigners" making a mockery of their language day in day out, but dont bother correcting unless they ask them specifically. I've had the same laughing response when my chinese friends asked how to pronounce things, I didnt take it as abusive. Jeeeeze victim mentality..... <runs, grinning>
Catfood, I woldn't mind my saes friends pronouncing it co-ed, it's when they can't even be bothered to think of it not being an english word and presumably decide it's code mis-spelt!
english word and presumably decide it's code mis-spelt!
Probably because when rushed (as english tends to be spoken) it sounds like codeybrennin etc, missing the subtleties.
Coffeeking, english is hardly A language though is it, Welsh is a phonetic language with simple rules on pronunciation (as long as you learn the welsh alphabet), english is a hotch potch of several languages with bizarrely inconsistent rules!
Mothertongue by Bill Bryson is a very informative read for those who want to improve their English pronunciation 😉
it depends whether you want your pronunciation in taff or gog (south or north)..
Problem with welsh names the CH, LL's etc is very difficult to pronounce properly and write phonrtically.
The u at the end of dolgellau is not "you" but more as in the u "dull" but pit a little more emphasis on it.
A as in Ad in advertisment.
Dol as in "Col"
"gell" is easiest as "geth" for you english, but is NOT the correct pronounciation.
And the "au" pronounce as "lau" with e u prononced as above.
Handy language Welsh though as it makes speaking and pronouncing other languages very easy....
So then, how are you supposed to pronounce ... Leominster? (Linster?)
Lemster
The u at the end of dolgellau is not "you" but more as in the u "dull" but pit a little more emphasis on it.
You sure about that? As I understand it, the Welsh letter 'u' is pronounced either as an 'i' sound, as in bit or an 'ee' sound as in teat.
Always pronounced Dolgellau as Doll-gethl-eye or sommat like that.
I had a boss from Leicester once, who was stopped by an Australian tourist one day and asked directions for Looga-buroo. He was after Loughborough apparently. My, how we laughed.
My personal favourites are Cholomondley, Cheshire and Rhosllanerchrugog, Wrecsam.
Regarding Dolgellau. I think "ll" should be pronounced in a similar way to "th" in "thought" but rather than the tongue being placed between the teeth the tip should be placed behind the lower teeth. So it is not the same sound as "th".
The "au" should be as in "eye", Welsh is also a phonetic language so there shouldn't be different pronunciations from different areas in Wales.
Dol-gell-ow. Shouting louder each time the person on the other end of the phone mis-understands you.
The best explanation for LL I found was tongue placed as for an l but don't vocalise it. So it's a kind of aspirate L sound. Seems to work for me, it sounds just like they do it on the telly.
And yes, it's true that Welsh spelling is phonetic. So it's actually very very easy to pronounce anything even if you've never heard it before, provided you make the effort with a couple of letters. Which is ironically the complete opposite of English.
PS I am from Leominster and it is indeed pronounced Lemster. Interestingly tho, old references to the place have it variously as Lymnster or Lempster. So it's actually grown AWAY from how it sounds not towards.
One of the reasons for different pronunciations of Dolgellau is that the spelling of the place was changed for reasons that nobody can agree on;
it is in old records as Dol-Gelli or Dolgelli (different pronunciations again)
So a student of the language might state how the written name should be pronounced might be rather different to what is said by those who live nearby.
Where I live is known as Darenfelen, Daren Felin, Darren-Felin. These all mean quite diffent things, and (by the phonetic model) should be pronounced diffently, but only those living within five miles ever get to say it, so it tends to be consistent.
Another source of variation comes from the "Correct Pronunciation" Movement of the Cardiff intellectuals and adopted religiously by BBC Wales. Compare (Molgrips will know this one) the pronunciation on the telly of "Caerleon" with that of someone who lives there. Just as in England, we all just say thing diffently.
Half the reason placenames across wales were spelled incorrectly in the past is due to English administrators and illiteracy.
I've seen Dollgelley in old Parish Registers and Censi for example.
I've heard Dol-ga-loo from tourists. I've also heard Aber-wrist-watch and Penrhyn-cock amongst others. Its sad how many people think it is funny to be completely ignorant of these things yet would take offence or be the first to correct if the shoe was on the other foot.
Just top put the record straight and get back on topic the answer is:
Dol-gell-eye, but the locals will often just use Dol, Mach or Aber for example. 'Llanfair PG' possibly being the worlds best shortening of a placename 😉 Lazy bastards, us Welsh.
Dol-Ge-ll(try putting tongue to roof of mouth and blow out through side of your mouth through gap between rear teeth)- eye.
You might need something to wipe the screen after???
Dog-loo......
Cos the place is full of sh1te..... 😉
I though "au" was similar to "aye"/"i": Doll-Ge-<gutteral>-L-aye; the <gutteral> is the unfamiliar combination of "L" at the front of the mouth and a "being sick" noise at the back.
Oh and locally (in the backward, sheep-shagging West Country), Bath is pronounced like the sheep noise: Baaa-th; no "r" and the -th- is very soft as in "thither".
While we are on the subject of Dolgellau, could anyone enlighten me on what the BAT is? I've heard some 'interesting' stories... but no-one seems to want to elaborate on what it is?
It's just Dog-el-oo to me
I have no reason to be interested in how the locals pronounce it
If you're from Yorkshire its "Dog allow" 8)
Compare (Molgrips will know this one) the pronunciation on the telly of "Caerleon" with that of someone who lives there
Good point. Quite a few examples of that down here in South Wales. Wales Today makes for interesting listening on that point. Not very interesting mind, and only on that one tiny point.
I have no reason to be interested in how the locals pronounce it
Exactly.
the <gutteral> is the unfamiliar combination of "L" at the front of the mouth and a "being sick" noise at the back.
No, it's not at the back of the throat; it's all at the front. No phlegm is required. Just tongue in the L position and then breathe out. It's easy.