Forum menu
Stay safe EZ and family
We do have the "Iron Dome" missile defense system, so we'll hopefully be OK, but thanks.
There's a really thoughtful piece in today's Observer by David Grossman. A transcript of a speech he gave in Tel Aviv last week. Can't find a link to it, but it's well worth a read
Hang in there EZrider!!
If things continue to escalate, will you stay in Israel, or move somewhere more peaceful?
Will your kids one day have to serve in the IDF?
This thread is still less depressing than the situation here.There were two air-raid sirens whilst putting the kids to sleep last night, so they slept in our room. At 6:30 this morning we heard somewhere elses sirens followed by a series of meaty explosions, which is normal when the sirens go off, just that they usually get drowned out by the sirens themselves. My two year old is alarmed by the sirens, and by the explosions, and this morning started to demand answers, who is sending the rockets, and why.
What hope is there for the future when two year olds ask political questions? Not because of something they've seen on the news, but due to their personal experience.
That's an interesting perspective EZrider thanks, but for a more complete picture the perspective from a forum user living in Gaza would be useful. Maybe from someone in Gaza whose fear of losing a children has turned into actual reality ?
Unfortunately however there doesn't appear to be any forum users lining in Gaza. Why do you think that might be ?
The only explanations I can think of is that perhaps there are poor internet connections in Gaza, or Gazians don't spend much of their leisure time mountain biking ?
Or perhaps it's just that not many Gazians speak and write English, what with them being Middle Eastern and not coming from North America, Europe, or Australia.
That does seem to put them at a disadvantage.
We do have the "Iron Dome" missile defense system, so we'll hopefully be OK
Yes it's US funded and appears to be very successful. But for reasons which haven't been explained the US hasn't funded an totally effective missile defense system to protect people living in Gaza from missile attacks.
It would appear that killing people living in Gaza with missiles is OK as far as the US is concerned.
I'm staying put for the time being, although moving to Britain may be an option in the future if things don't improve.
On the subject of Arabs riding bikes, you never used to see any, but more recently, there seem to be a few.
It's nice to have an option.
If you do decide to stay put:
Will your kids one day have to serve in the IDF?
My kids will need to serve in the IDF if we stay.
So they could in turn become part of the problem, rather than the solution?
There are avenues for objecting. It's pretty difficult and unless the father got a job that could cover the visa requirements for two Israeli children to return to the UK, then they wouldn't be able to.
Are Hamas ****ing idiots? Israel is responding full on (attacked so retaliate yet still Hamas are launching rockets today).
They want a full ground invasion then.
Why?
How can you be sure it's Hamas?
Its someone in Gaza. Why are they continuing to fire rockets?
4 Israeli soldiers injured attacking a launch site today.
Are Hamas **** idiots? Israel is responding full on (attacked so retaliate yet still Hamas are launching rockets today).They want a full ground invasion then.
Because they don't care about Palestinian civilians, they see them as pawns in their own long game. The rocket attacks are not meant to be tactically useful, they are never going to beat Israel in a shooting match. The rocket attacks are simply bait, they launch them from near to civilian populations and wait for the Israelis to respond knowing full well that it will cause outrage amongst the worlds media.
The more Palestinian civilians that die during this round, the happier they will be. Their aim is to try and get the rest of the world to cut off Israel.
The Israeli government on the other hand have to be seen to be responding by their own people and protecting Israeli lives, by attacking launch sites. The Iron Dome doesn't guarantee protection, costs millions to run and has a limited supply of missiles whose supply could probably be outstripped by Hamas supply of basic cheap rockets. Hence they are hitting Hamas directly with the hope of fulfilling two objectives, reduce their capacity to launch rockets and make Palestinians turn on Hamas.
Its someone in Gaza. Why are they continuing to fire rockets?
Purely hypothetical, but what if Israel/Mossad had double agents who'd infiltrated Hamas, either directly firing the rockets, or more likely, brainwashing some patsies within Gaza to fire rockets, giving them the provocation necessary for a full blown attack...
[url= http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/12/28/677821/-If-Hamas-is-so-bad-why-did-Israel-fund-it ]
Israel have certainly funded Hamas[/url]
There would be no point to that, as Hamas are currently on their way to achieving their strategic aims. Israel would be shooting themselves in the foot if they were playing some false flag operation.
There would be no point to that, as Hamas are currently on their way to achieving their strategic aims.
Whose strategic aims?
Hamas wants to the rest of the world to cut of Israel diplomatically, like the world did with South Africa.
Hamas wants to the rest of the world to cut of Israel diplomatically, like the world did with South Africa.
Perhaps, or could it be;
Israel wants to be attacked by surrounding countries, so it has an excuse to 'defend' itself with the vast weapons budget which is bestowed upon it by the US and the 'western powers' in general.
Are Hamas **** idiots? Israel is responding full on (attacked so retaliate yet still Hamas are launching rockets today).
They want a full ground invasion then.
Why?
Not so much idiots as in despair. Everything else has been tried in order to alleviate the suffering of the Israeli occupation, from giving absurd concessions in negotiations to ill-advised conventional war. They don't see any other course of action except to goad the Israelis to show yet again their hideous brutality in the hope that decency prevails in the US and the Americans stop giving blank cheques. Some hope 🙁
Or, that Hamas have burned their bridges with their only allies and have been unable to pay a lot of their civil servants. Escalating is a good distraction from their own internal problems.
Cock. Double post 🙁
Again - the point is not that. If is that Israel are killing innocent civilians. Whatever Hamas motivations may or may not be, it is the Israelis doing the murdering.
Or, that Hamas have burned their bridges with their only allies and have been unable to pay a lot of their civil servants. Escalating is a good distraction from their own internal problems.
That could be entirely valid; there is every likelihood of propaganda from both sides, however, given the vast differential in budget, support and indeed intelligence networks, I can't help but imagine that perhaps it is unlikely that Hamas have the resources to produce nearly as much propaganda material.
[url= http://forward.com/articles/201764/how-politics-and-lies-triggered-an-unintended-war/?p=all#ixzz374CPB51T ]Also, there is no proof linking them to the deaths of the 3 Israeli's that served to escalate tensions [/url]
Or, that Hamas have burned their bridges with their only allies and have been unable to pay a lot of their civil servants. Escalating is a good distraction from their own internal problems.
Don't try to pin the blame for the present situation on Hamas.
We are where we are today because three Israeli teenagers were murdered in the West Bank, the warmongers in Israel decided to dish out collective punishment against the Palestinians, but not the ones living in the West Bank where the murders took place, but instead the ones living in Gaza because there they have the audacity to vote incorrectly.
Of course Zionists like you Tom expect Palestinians to take their collective punishment without any resistance or threats towards Israel, you would like them just lie down and die when they are being murdered by the government which you support.
So you try to blame them for the situation caused by Zionists like you. You want to blame [i]the victims[/i] of Israeli aggression, as Zionists always do.
And yes of course Hamas are firing rockets at Israel, international law fully recognises the right of peoples to defend themselves from attacks. What they are doing is perfectly legal under international law, in contrast what Israel is doing is not legal under international law.
Since Izzy Asper's acquisition of the National Post, the paper has become a strong voice in support of the state of Israel and its government. The Post was one of the few Canadian papers to offer unreserved support to Israel during its conflict with Hezbollah in Lebanon during 2006.[6] Canadian pundits argue whether the Post's support of Israel is a legacy of its late founder's political ideology or a shrewd business manoeuvre.[
Ie take anything they say with a huge pinch of salt.
For example
When Hamas seized control of Gaza in 2007,
Which of course ignores the fact they won the 2006 election and dealt with "insurgents" [ as we would call them here if they opposed an election]> it also ignores the fact the insurgency was triggered by the US and the EU stopping aid once Hamas won that triggered it. Politically motivated piece IMHO
Hamas is gambling escalating the current fight — and hoping for a limited war by Israel
That is at odds with reality and utter BS
ernie_lynch - Member
... expect Palestinians to take their collective punishment without any resistance or threats towards Israel, ...
That's called conditioning ...
yes of course Hamas are firing rockets at Israel, international law fully recognises the right of peoples to defend themselves from attacks. What they are doing is perfectly legal under international law, in contrast what Israel is doing is not legal under international law.
Well, thats bollocks for a start - Whilst there may have been, tragically, collateral damage, Israeli strikes have without doubt been targeted, and measures have been taken to minimise casualties (phone calls, knock on the roof etc) - Now, you can argue all you like that they're not enough, and you can argue about the legal validity of the exact targets struck and whether they amount to a collective punishment or not - but its still clear that a deliberate effort has been made to minimise casualties. On the other hand, the palestinian rockets are openly targeted at civilians en masse, without regard to minimising casualties
In the words of Human Rights Watch:
[i]"Palestinian armed groups in Gaza have launched scores of rockets into Israel since June 13, 2014. When fired indiscriminately or targeted at Israeli population centers – as these attacks seem to be – they are serious violations of the law of armed conflicts."[/i]
(and yes, they thoroughly criticise Israel too, accusing them of collective punishment, however it completely undermines your claim that "What they are doing is perfectly legal under international law,")
ignores the fact they won the 2006 election
The 2006 Gaza election which was paid for by the EU and which Hamas was positively encouraged by the EU/West to participate in.
They weren't suppose to win though, and they've been punished ever since for doing so.
Well, thats bollocks for a start - Whilst there may have been, tragically, collateral damage, Israeli strikes have without doubt been targeted, and measures have been taken to minimise casualties
It's an act of aggression. Under international law countries are not allowed to wage aggressive war, that was established at Nuremberg.
Israel was not being attacked by Gaza when it launched it military strikes against Gaza.
The attack on Gaza was in punishment for the murder of three Israeli teenagers, the Israeli government said so. Collective punishment is illegal under international law.
The bollocks is all yours.
Because they don't care about Palestinian civilians...The more Palestinian civilians that die during this round, the happier they will be.
If this were true (which it's not, just more zionist bullshit), then surely ordinary Palestinans would make attempts to prvent 'Hamas' members from dong so. Truth is, that Palestinains are so desperate that they feel they've got virtually nothing to lose, and attacking Israel is a last act of desperation. Hence, Hams gets every support ordinary Palestinans can give.Becuse at the end of the day, Hamas is made up of ordinary Palestinans driven by fear, despertin and hatred of the oprression they suffer every single day of their lives.
TomW1987: why exacyly are you defending Israel? What are your reasons? Beacuse I'm struggling to think whay any decent-minded indivdual with a reasonable awareness of the real situaion, would do so.
Ernie, are you sticking to your claim that:
[i]"yes of course Hamas are firing rockets at Israel, international law fully recognises the right of peoples to defend themselves from attacks. What they are doing is perfectly legal under international law, "
[/i]
Or accepting HRW's denial of its legality
its still clear that a deliberate effort has been made to minimise casualties.
No there hasn't. The IDF have been as ruthless and indiscriminate as anyone can, and don't give two ****s for any civilians. Because if they did, they'd stop the airstrikes and simpley defend thmselves with the iron dome. They really wouldn't have to do very much more, as Hamas/Islamic Jihad etc imply don't have the resources to inflict much damage. If Isreal was genuinely concerned what th world thinks, then they'd do everything they could to gain suport. They aren't, that's patently ovbious. And those who support them don't either.
One glimer of hope is that the Chinese, set to become the next dominant superpower, don't seem to be particularly sympathetic towards Israel, and don't recgnise Hamas as a 'terrorist' organisation as do many western antions. And with a lot of Chinese money invested in the Arab world, China could come to consider Israel a nuiscance and hindrence to economic progression, and act accordingly. Israle would be wise to take note.
No there hasn't. The IDF have been as ruthless and indiscriminate as anyone can and don't give two **** for any civilians
Really? Because if so then they're extraordinarily crap at their job - 1300 plus strikes in one of the most densely populated parts of the region, with less than 200 people killed total - thats extraordinarily bad. especially compared with the 2,000 odd palestinian civilians killed in the Syrian civil war...You also have to wonder why they are phoning people first?
Or are you perhaps relying on hyperbole?
Ernie, are you sticking to your claim that:"yes of course Hamas are firing rockets at Israel, international law fully recognises the right of peoples to defend themselves from attacks. What they are doing is perfectly legal under international law, "
Or accepting HRW's denial of its legality
Of course I'm sticking to my claim, I don't give a toss what a US human rights organization has to say.
If the US was supplying precision weapons to the Gazians and they were being used indiscriminately against civilian targets then there might be a case. But the Gazians are using whatever they have to defend themselves from illegal acts of aggression from Israel.
I'm sure Hamas would like to use their very limited resources to hit purely military targets, and that's what they attempt to do for obvious reasons.
The US can't complain about the inaccuracy of Gazian weapons if they refuse to supply them with accurate ones, or better still an anti-missile defence system which would stop Israel killing Palestinians.
Palestinians have a right to not just lie down and die.
a massive comfort to the disabled folk killed by them today i would have thought wouldn't you ninfan?
Of all the things to scribble on 🙄
Really? Because if so then they're extraordinarily crap at their job - 1300 plus strikes in one of the most densely populated parts of the region, with less than 200 people killed total
Christ almighty; you think those 200 lives don't ****ing matter? 😯 And this, in spite of the warnings? Surely, confirming target sites were clear of people first would be doing the job 'properly'? Are you another apologist?
1300 plus strikes in one of the most densely populated parts of the region
That in itself would be a war crime even in a recognised legally justified war.
So what's the "1300 plus strikes" been targeting then ?
You're going to say Hamas rocket sites aren't you ? Which is clearly bollocks as according to the Israelis Hamas rockets keep coming.
So come on, "1300 plus strikes" is a lot, what have these precision weapons been targeting ?
you think those 200 lives don't * matter?
See, I never said that, but its hardly the same as an allegation that [i]The IDF have been as ruthless and indiscriminate as anyone can, and don't give two * for any civilians[/i]
You know, theres probably some middle ground between the two extremes, non?
So come on, "1300 plus strikes" is a lot, what have these precision weapons been targeting ?
Entirely random Ernie, entirely random - in fact I reckon they probably have a big dartboard on the wall, blindfold the military planners and pick them like that!
You know, theres probably some middle ground between the two extremes, non?
This is the IDF we're tlkingabout, so, no. Their actions are indefensible, and designed to inflict maximum terror. Their claims of 'collateral damage' are insulting to humanity.
We're sorry for any accidental civilian deaths but it's the Hamas that bears complete responsibility for such civilian casualties”Benjamin Netanyahu
Israeli prime minister
So there you go Hams bombs israel Hams fault
Israel bombs Gaza Hamas fault
No arguing with logic like that.
designed to inflict maximum terror.
See, again, if I was trying to inflict maximum terror, I wouldn't be phoning people up telling them to get out the house - I'd be using cluster munitions, mass artillery strikes, thermobaric bombs - hell, if a first world military machine wanted to inflict terror without giving a * for any civilians, as you have claimed - then they could have some real fun couldn't they, look at Sarajevo, Grozny, Fallujah...
Its just pointless to come out with the exaggerated hyperbole, like "designed to inflict maximum terror" when its plainly not true - is it nice, no, is it pleasant, no, could it be done differently with fewer casualties, yes - but lets not over egg the pudding with silly comments that paint exaggerated cartoon characters of goody and baddy in a complex and *ed up situation where both sides are aggressors.
Dear mods
Why are you letting this thread carry on ?
It's the same thing being said over and over again by the same anti Israel people and the same for Israel people.
I said my bit for whats it's worth but this /arguing/bantering between members is painfully destructive for the anti's and for the for's.
The arguing on the forum isn't solving anything you run the risk of loosing members
Everyone has said there bit it's time to do your job moderator and close the thread.
I'm sure I will be called all sorts for writing this but hey ho....
It's the same thing being said over and over again by the same anti Israel people
I can't speak for others, but I'm not 'anti israel', simple anti-zionist, anti-murderers, anti-evil. And I think it's important for such debates to be let to run, as then we can get a good picture of what all sorts of people really think. No good keeping quiet and hopin it all goes away. Even if we can't do anythng, we must still engage wth the issues.
if a first world military machine wanted to inflict terror without giving a **** for any civilians, as you have claimed - then they could have some real fun couldn't they
This is an interesting read (amongst many, many pieces like it):
http://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-soldiers-expose-atrocities-gaza/8146
"The atmosphere in general, from what I understood from most of my men who I talked to … I don’t know how to describe it … The lives of Palestinians, let’s say, are very, very much less important than the lives of our soldiers. As far as they’re concerned, that’s the way they can justify it.”"
"All sorts"
The guardian has a reasonable argument on this
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/13/gaza-war-futile-neither-side-can-win
With a neat conclusion
"Then this stupidest of wars will stop...Israel's tanks will pull back to their bases. The Gazan rocket teams will lick their wounds, rebuild their arsenals in the metal shops and commission new murals for the walls to sanctify their fallen dead in the public memory.
And the civilian dead will stay dead, discarded pieces in a pointless game of chess."
More:
"Israeli naval blockades stop Gazans from fishing, a main source of food in the Strip. Air blockades prevent freedom of movement. Israel does not allow building materials into the area, forbids exports to the West Bank and Israel, and (other than emergency humanitarian cases) prohibits movement between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. It controls the Palestinian economy by periodically withholding import taxes. Its restrictions have impeded the expansion and upgrading of the Strip’s woeful sewage infrastructure, which could render life in Gaza untenable within a decade. The blocking of seawater desalination has turned the water supply into a health hazard. Israel has repeatedly demolished small power plants in Gaza, ensuring that the Strip would have to continue to rely on the Israeli electricity supply. Daily power shortages have been the norm for several years now. Israel’s presence is felt everywhere, militarily and otherwise."
It's the same thing being said over and over again by the same anti Israel people and the same for Israel people
No one here is anti Israel they are anti what Israel is doing. Its a cheap and weak slur that stops you engaging to just claim it is hatred that motivates the opinions.
Did I miss the bit where you or the Zionist apologists said something negative about Israel as i saw plenty of anti "israel types" happy to criticise the Palestinians
The mods are letting the thread go because they support free speech and no one is being rude ...either that or they had a bet on how many times you would return
The lives of Palestinians, let’s say, are very, very much less important than the lives of our soldiers. As far as they’re concerned, that’s the way they can justify it.
Said every army, ever - have a look at what the Allies did to Caen during WW2 as an example.
Dear Mods,
please don't close this thread, I have found the cut and thrust of the argument interesting and informative. it has prompted me to spend a couple of hours today making myself better informed about the situation in Israel at this moment in time. I was, it seems, somewhat out of date in some of my assumptions.
There is still new information, point and counterpoint being made and it's still an interesting read.
The last couple of points have caused me to dig a little further into HRW, an organisation I had been comfortable to trust until Ernie pointing out their US funding - more research.
Although not mountain bike related it is still interesting, so please don't lock it. If you have read it made your point and are bored, read another thread.
Cheers, RTC.
I'm far from bored of it !
Tbh the only person that has said the most factual piece of information is the guy living in Israel. Period.
Mods haven't closed it as no one has report anything until now.
I'm on my meal break from doing my job, the last one was resuscitation of an elderly chap. I'm now grabbing a bite to eat, I've had a quick look at the thread and can't see any issues. Everyone seems to be playing nicely so it'll stay open for now.
No one here is anti Israel....
Excuse me but I am most definitely anti-Israel. I would like to see a one state solution with a democratic Palestine. Racism is no solution.
You are not anti them because you are a racist which is what they were alluding to I assume.
Pedantry aside I stand corrected.
@ofirgendelman: Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri's Freudian Slip live on Hamas TV: "We are leading our people to death" #ProtectiveEdge http://t.co/wfnu2PgtDp
.
Oh clearly they should go back to Poland cos it worked our really well last time ... Oh wait a minute...
Not sure this will work but:
Oh clearly they should go back to Poland cos it worked our really well last time ... Oh wait a minute...
Playing the holocaust card. Classy.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Stofel you retracted your comment to which I responded.
No not at all. Responding to a retracted question above.
The holocaust was taboo in Israel for years post 1948, never spoken about.
And just incase it doesn't make the uk press:
@i24news_EN: #BREAKING: Sirens warning of incoming rockets sound in northern #Israel near border with #Lebanon
Why would you expect sirens going off to "make the uk press" ?
Is Israel finding it hard to cope with all that terrible noise ?
You should be able to bomb the crap out of Gaza and kill countless Palestinians without having the discomfort of putting up with that awful noise, eh ?
Good article on BBC news just now. Of course, the zionists will laim the BBC is biased, but the pictures tell their own story, that of one side exercising overwhelming power over another.
Stofel you retracted your comment to which I responded.
That coment, which was in response to Ernie Lynch's comment about his hatred of Israel, was 'where do Israeli people have the right to live?'. I have no idea why you're invoking the Holocaust; thats a very low and disrespectful move. Shame on you. All people have the right to live somewhere, and 'Israelis' aren't just Jews. Which you of course know. But maybe it suits your zionist agenda to 'play the Holocaust card' as somene else put it, to defelct criticis, and be a justification for zionim. Again; shameon you.
[img] 
[/img]
Excuse me but I am most definitely anti-Israel. I would like to see a one state solution with a democratic Palestine. Racism is no solution.
The other crap posted in this thread I will deal with tomorrow, but this needs addressing.
You're telling me that you want to see civilians lives being saved, yet you're advocating a one state solution? Are you ****ing nuts? Do you have any idea of the kind of insanity that would prevail if that ever happened? By the time wounds have healed to the point of making that even remotely possible, climate change will have rendered the entire place completely uninhabitable. Saying you're not anti-israel and then advocating a one state solution is similar to the "I'm not racist but..." line.
Playing the holocaust card. Classy.Two wrongs don't make a right.
Jews psychologically and for for completely valid reasons I might add, will never trust the rest of the world. Any peace process needs to recognise that.
Saying you're not anti-israel and then advocating a one state solution is similar to the "I'm not racist but..." line
this is what you quoted him saying
I am most definitely anti-Israel.
😕
PS Ernie is many things but he is NOT a racist.
Saying you're not anti-israel and then advocating a one state solution is similar to the "I'm not racist but..." line.
Why don't you read what you copied and pasted ? I did say I was anti-Isreali.
I am totally against a Zionist state. There's nothing "nuts" about having a non-racist solution to Palestine. And the one state solution has widespread support. Obviously the two state solution is a complete non-starter.
Of course you prefer your own version of the one state solution, ie, a state for the Zionists but no state at all for the Palestinians.
The two state solution is a non starter because successive Palestinian leaderships have repeatedly rejected it. They rejected it in 1948, because they wanted the bits that were allocated to Israel, and they have been rejecting it ever since.
There has never been a Palestinian state in that part of the world. There are indigenous Palestinian people, that having been misled into holding out for their own state without the Jews, in the belief that the Arab armies will eventually prevail; That is precisely what Hamas are staying today.
There are 1.5 million Arabs (former stateless Palestinians) living in Israel who would never consider living under Hamas rule.
The only solution is a two state solution. Hamas need to accept it, rather than rejecting it, and continuing with their war of attrition at the expense of civilian lives.
The two state solution is a non starter because it is completely unacceptable that land should taken from the people living in Palestine and given to foreigners with no connection to the area on the basis of an extremely dubious alleged promise God made 3,000 years ago.
The two state solution is a non starter because persecuting the Palestinian people so that a special select few of say British people, for example, who of course have their own homeland, such as EZrider, can help themselves to the Palestinian land causes an injustice that can't be simply brushed under the carpet.
The two state solution is a non starter because any "solution" based on a totally racist concept is never going to work.
"Separate development" under Apartheid worked in the short term but not in the long term, there is no evidence that it will be more successful in Palestine.
Ernie, I look forward to your campaign for the return of Texas to Mexico, the rest of the USA to the Indians, Australia to the Aborigines, and the widespread repatriation of the Spanish from the entire continent of South America and return of the Aztec gold.
In conflicts such as this, surely there needs to be a (date)line in the sand from which both sides can then move forward and begin to find ground on which they can agree. (Genuine Q to the debatees, I've found it an interesting thread to read)...is there a line on which both sides can agree in this conflict? If not, and a third party had to set it, where should it be?
Many religious Jews dont believe that there should be a Jewish homeland before the Messiah arrives which is partly why you have pictures per the one above.
Stoffel. Your retracted comment was along the lines of where should the Jews live.
Uganda and Madagascar have been suggested in the past. Any others STW want to put forward?
Ernie. No more concerned about the rockets fired from Lebanon last night.
No casualties as far as I know but sadly a 12 yr old Israeli Arab was killed a couple of weeks ago due to shelling from Syria.
The score so far:
IDF- 170
Hamas - nil
Not sure how exactly many of the 170 were women and children, or if any more of them were in wheelchairs or care homes. Sorry. Will update that information as I get it
Binners, the score is wrong, theres at least one three year old palestinian girl that was killed by a Hamas rocket that fell short
http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views/world/young-girl-killed-by-rocket-in-gaza-1.439800
UN reporting 70% of the dead in Gaza were non-combatants.
Before someone screams that they are targeting innocents and thus are as bad as Nazis, that ratio is the same as ours in Afghanistan.
The two state solution is a non starter because it is completely unacceptable that land should taken from the people living in Palestine and given to foreigners with no connection to the area on the basis of an extremely dubious alleged promise God made 3,000 years ago.The two state solution is a non starter because persecuting the Palestinian people so that a special select few of say British people, for example, who of course have their own homeland, such as EZrider, can help themselves to the Palestinian land causes an injustice that can't be simply brushed under the carpet.
Such an uncompromising attitude will make sure that tens of thousands more die in the long run, a one state solution is nothing but a pipe dream with no grounding in reality. You don't care about lives saved, what you care about is your own ideology.
Ernie, I look forward to your campaign for the return of Texas to Mexico, the rest of the USA to the Indians, Australia to the Aborigines, and the widespread repatriation of the Spanish from the entire continent of South America and return of the Aztec gold.
More of your endless whataboutery. Can you really not bring yourself to say "the killing of innocent people is wrong". Is it so difficult for you?
Sorry. I'll amend the score then
IDF- 170
Hamas - 1 (OG)
More of your endless whataboutery. Can you really not bring yourself to say "the killing of innocent people is wrong". Is it so difficult for you?
Do you seriously think a one state solution would lead to less innocent people being killed by either side?