[Closed] How come UN resolutions and the Geneva Convention don't apply to Israel?

The resolution recommended the creation of independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem. The Partition Plan, a four-part document attached to the resolution, provided for the termination of the Mandate, the progressive withdrawal of British armed forces and the delineation of boundaries between the two States and Jerusalem. Part I of the Plan stipulated that the Mandate would be terminated as soon as possible and the United Kingdom would withdraw no later than 1 August 1948. The new states would come into existence two months after the withdrawal, but no later than 1 October 1948. The Plan sought to address the conflicting objectives and claims of two competing movements: Arab nationalism in Palestine and Jewish nationalism, known as Zionism.[3][4] The Plan also called for Economic Union between the proposed states, and for the protection of religious and minority rights.

The Plan was accepted by the Jewish public, except for its fringes, and by the Jewish Agency despite its perceived limitations.[5][6] With a few exceptions, the Arab leaders and governments rejected the plan of partition in the resolution[7] and indicated an unwillingness to accept any form of territorial division.[8] Their reason was that it violated the principles of national self-determination in the UN charter which granted people the right to decide their own destiny.[6][9]

So they chose armed self-determination with the help of the Arab League and lost.

One day the Israeli people will wake up and realise what they have done and will be ashamed of what they did. Just as Britain is ashamed of slavery just as Germany is ashamed of the Holocaust.

how the **** do you think Britain knew where its mandate was ffs ?

The Sykes–Picot Agreement, which involved diplomacy and a smidgen of historical guesswork. Which as all things British, turned into a century long disaster.

they chose armed self-determination with the help of the Arab League and lost.

So the Palestinians chose not to support a plan which involved them handing over their lands to foreigners claiming to be Jews, while on the other hand Zionists approved of a plan which involved Palestinians handing over their lands to them. Well there's a surprise, who would have thought it, eh ?

The Sykes–Picot Agreement.....

And the Versailles Treaty resulted in territorial losses for Germany, presumably therefore you think that lebensraum was a legitimate goal for Nazi Germany, as long as they achieved it through war of course. ffs.

i make a point of not buying any isreali produce. the fact that isreal recieved over 3bn$ from the US in military aid last year means that the 2€ i didn't spend on paprikas today isn't going to make much of an impact on the mentality.

And the Versailles Treaty resulted in territorial losses for Germany, presumably therefore you think that lebensraum was a legitimate goal for Nazi Germany, as long as they achieved it through war of course. ffs.

Presumably therefore you think that regaining territorial losses through war is a legitimate goal for Palestinians then?

So the Palestinians chose not to support a plan which involved them handing over their lands to foreigners claiming to be Jews, while on the other hand Zionists approved of a plan which involved Palestinians handing over their lands to them. Well there's a surprise, who would have thought it, eh

You've never actually read the UN plan, land was never going to be handed over. The states were going to be administered by different religious groups and minorities be they Jewish or Muslim, in either state, would be respected.

But noooooo, that would be way way to adult of people.....one side had to get all shooty shooty gun gun because they couldn't handle someone with a different sky god governing them.....it's fine if Ottoman's or whoever run things....but ****....Jews?

Presumably therefore you think that regaining territorial losses through war is a legitimate goal for Palestinians then?

You think that taking back what is yours is the same as taking what isn't yours ? At this rate of incredulity I think I'm going to start running out of ffs. ffs

.

EDIT for your edit : [i]"You've never actually read the UN plan, land was never going to be handed over."[/i]

From the very page which you copied and pasted :

[i].... it gave the majority of the land (56%) to the Jews, who at that stage legally owned only 7% of it and remained a minority of the population. There were also disproportionate allocations under the plan and the area under Jewish control contained 45% of the Palestinian population.[/i]

I don't know, taking back Prussia isn't so different. Depends if you think Germany was right to do so. I don't.

*cough*

This data does not reflect the actual land ownership by Jews, local Arabs, Ottomans and other land owners.

Reread it.

The Plan would have had the following demographics (data based on 1945). This data does not reflect the actual land ownership by Jews, local Arabs, Ottomans and other land owners.

That's the whole point - the demographics of "The Plan" would not have reflected the actual land ownership. The Plan would have handed over land to Jews.

Why have you got a cough ? Have a drink of water and re-read your Wikipedia page.

Totally irrelevant. Like most of this thread.

So, about that original question, then...

The U.N? Geneva convention?

Anyone?

The question has been answered. Israel can ignore the UN and the Geneva Convention because they are special, and mates with the United States.

To be fair I'm surprised that you even need to ask.

Isn't that how wars work?

as ernie says we are indeed running out of FFS and face palms here.
Were concentration camps ,genocide and final solutions also how wars work or was it morally indefensible utterly abhorrent and wrong?

PS tom aelf pwning is fun to watch.

Well, Israel are not that special surely? Turkey has continued to breach numerous UN resolutions on Cyprus

Its interesting that the greek-cypriots who were forced out of their homelands have not resorted to a long campaign of firing missiles, blowing people up, kidnapping, murder and terrorism (though to be fair, had they not been doing this to their fellow islanders in the first place, Turkey might never have invaded...)

Junkyard - lazarus
PS tom aelf pwning is fun to watch.

I think you've forgotten how important he is. It's a tragedy 🙁

ninfan - Member
Well, Israel are not that special surely? Turkey has continued to breach numerous UN resolutions on Cyprus

Whatabout whatabout whatabout

Yes, whatabout - because it disproves the suggestion that Israel is somehow being given 'special' treatment by not enforcing UN resolutions against it.

Now, what do you think would happen if Greek Cypriots started firing rockets from one half of Nicosia?

Israel fired 60 rockets into gaza overnight, Hamas fired 4 into Israel - proportionate response with a Zionist sneer

While you idiots are discussing ancient history, the Israelis are killimg civilians - men, women and children. Whatever the imagined origins in ancient books or ****ed up colonialism, this is a vile crime.

is it a vile crime when Israeli civilians, like the three teenage boys last month, get kidnapped and murdered too?

Obviously. Are you implying that one justifies the other?

Right, so why single out Israel for criticism in your earlier post?

Because the Israeli murdering is an ongoing situation on an incomparably bigger scale undertaken by a government and tacitly supported by superpowers. Did I miss something?

You see, to me this is the problem - its a [i]cycle[/i] of violence - the simplification of painting one side as evil, and responsible for everything that is happening helps nobody.

Incomparably bigger scale? over 1000 rockets launched at Israel last week.

Both sides need to stop, Tit for Tat needs to stop, and people need to stop making excuses for Hamas continuing their violence too!

Nobody is painting one side as evil. People are painting one side as responsible for the vast majority of innocent lives lost. That is the simple fact. It needs to stop, and your diversion and whataboutery don't change that.

the simplification of painting one side as evil, and responsible for everything that is happening helps nobody

Did you see it when I challenged them to say something negative about Israel and they never even responded.
See it when they blamed Hams for Israel killing civilians [ even claimed it showed Israel cared more about civilians 😯 ]

Scribbles at the scribbler

That's the whole point - the demographics of "The Plan" would not have reflected the actual land ownership. The Plan would have handed over land to Jews.

There's a difference between control of a state and land ownership within that state. If you can prove to me that the plan included taking property and houses of Arabs and giving them to Jews, then I'll accede.

My question to everyone else would be, if Israel is so bad, why are the civilian to combatant death ratios higher for UK operations in Afghanistan than Israels operations in Gaza and the West Bank. It would appear to me, that we are worse when it comes to disproportionate responses. The very fact that the Israeli's have managed to best our ratio in heavily built up environments would indicate that they are doing a far better job than us at identifying and targeting militants.

DrJ - Member

While you idiots are discussing ancient history, the Israelis are killimg civilians - men, women and children.

Well I've signed a petition urging David Cameron to tell Israel that it must end its military assault and to impose sanctions on Israel until it upholds international law. What else would you like me to do ?

Pick up the phone and have a word with Netanyahu ? ........I seem to be right out of Qassam rockets.
Besides, Tel Aviv is beyond their range from Croydon.

@ernie - TBH my remark was not aimed at you but at people like Tom who respond to murderous assaults on an unarmed populace with diversion and obfuscation. Shameful.

My question to everyone else would be, if Israel is so bad, why are the civilian to combatant death ratios higher for UK operations in Afghanistan than Israels operations in Gaza and the West Bank.

The obvious answer, assuming, for the sake of argument, that you could document that statement, would be to point out that the two environments are entirely different, and that, in any case, one does not excuse the other. More whataboutery from the Israeli apologists.

Yeah ones a sparsely populated shit heap and the other is a densely populated one, implying we are far worse than the Israelis.

My point being, that I don't believe Israel are beyond blame....but people like Gonzy and Ernie come across as being the types who see Israel as pure evil and want them to be pushed back into the sea. Beyond not helping the situation at all, I find this attitude rather hypocritical, pot meet kettle etc.

I've just had a quote tweeted to me about the value of our total arms sales to Israel from a Journalist friend who was at the #Scotlandwithgaza protest in Edinburgh earlier today, she said we have exported £7.9 Billion in arms sales to Israel. I thought that was an absurd amount so i checked it out and it appears to be true 😯 .

So i guess we are complicit in the destruction of Palestine.

With reference to trotting out the usual Zionist lie that Israel's murderous assault on Gaza and the killing of men, women, and children, is in response to Hamas rockets, as exemplified here :

samj - Member

Gaza is being bombed because Hamas is firing rockets into Israel. If they wanted to stop the bombing they could stop firing rockets. The blame for the Gaza civilian plight lies squarely with the Hamas leadership.

nim - Member

Rockets were being fired from Gaza long before the boys were kidnapped. It just doesn't make the UK press.

I've just stumbled on this :

[url= http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-fired-rockets-for-first-time-since-2012-israeli-officials-say/ ]Hamas fires rockets for first time since 2012, Israeli officials say[/url]

[i]The security sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, assessed that Hamas had probably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier which killed one person and injured three more.

While Israel has maintained it holds Hamas responsible for all rocket attacks, officials have said that smaller groups, such as Islamic Jihad, are usually behind the rocket attacks, while Hamas squads generally attempt to thwart the rocket fire.

Hamas hasn’t fired rockets into Israel since Operation Pillar of Defense ended in November 2012, and has yet to take responsibility for this latest barrage.

The group fired hundred of rockets at Israel over eight days during Operation Pillar of Defense in 2012, as Israel carried out punishing strikes on the Palestinian enclave.[/i]

So no Hamas rocket attacks for 2 years then, not since Israel last attacked Gaza, and not until Israel once again attacked Gaza with some of the most advanced weapons available in the world.

According to the Israeli press of course, according to what nim reads [i]"Rockets were being fired from Gaza long before the boys were kidnapped. It just doesn't make the UK press"[/i].

Expect the same old lies to be trotted out next time Israel wants to bomb the **** out of Gaza and kill a few more 100 Palestinians.

And the fact that it was in the West Bank which isn't controlled by Hamas, not Gaza, where the 3 boys were kidnapped, shouldn't be forgotten.

Israel uses any excuse - the truth is of no consequence to them. And they particularly hate Hamas because Hamas had the temerity to win EU sponsored elections, which wasn't something that they were supposed to do.

people like Gonzy and Ernie come across as being the types who see Israel as pure evil

"Evil" isn't a terminology which I tend to use, I see Israel as a pariah state, of course I do, why wouldn't I?

It refuses to comply with international law or convention and its government orders the killing of civilians with complete disregard, in fact contempt, for United Nations/global public opinion. It should be treated as a pariah state.

BTW do you believe in the struggle between "good and evil" Tom ?

I resent the way that apologists for Israel talk about a 'civil war' or 'exchange of fire' or 'both sides' etc implying some sort of balance when in fact we're looking at a massive imbalance of power and a racist colonialist state engaging in collective punishment. I have talked to past members of the Israeli army about atrocities and they shrug their shoulders with comments like 'sh*t happens' and 'it's all part of the day'.
It saddens me that judaism has produced some great socialists like Marx, Trotsky, Luxemburg, Ygael Gluckstein, Ruth First whereas the ideology of zionism has converted so many to being in many respects worse than Afrikaaners under apartheid.

I think it's important to understand that zionists don't speak for all Jews,and in fact are in a minority. I think it's dangerous to think of zionism as a 'Jewish' issue, as millins of Jews worldwide are vehemently opposed to zionim. And as a previous poster pointed out,many Haredi are opposied to the ideology of zionism. A neighbour of ours is Isreali, and a former member of the IDF. He and his wife (a Yemeni Jew) moved from Israel to get away from the situation there, and because of the treatment of Yemeni, Ethiopian, Moroccanand other Arab Jews, by racists of European origin.

She describes many instances of humiliating and sometimes horrifying discrimination against Moroccan, Yemeni, Tunisian and other Jews as they found their lives subsumed beneath the prevailing Ashkenazi culture. Some North African Jews were allowed in only after being sprayed with disinfectant. The picture is one of exploitation and mistrust, based largely on the Arab Jews’ resemblance – even linguistically – to “the enemy” and leaving them still at the bottom of the heap today.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/4838496/Israels-humiliating-discrimination-against-Arab-Jews.html

I don't see this as a 'Jewish' issue at al; it's all about evil men bent on power and wealth, using religion as a smokescreen to justify their actions, and exempt themselves from any criticism.

Yeah ones a sparsely populated shit heap and the other is a densely populated one, implying we are far worse than the Israelis.

"The bomb came straight through the roof," said Mohammad Bahri, a 22-year-old who lives next door. "About 4.30am two drones fired warning shots and then the jet came in and bombed."

The residents were barely mobile, said neighbours, spending their time in bed or in wheelchairs, and could not escape the building.

Skip to the end.

I'll be at a Palestinian Solidarity rally tomorrow, which is nothing new but it's doing something.

Better than inaction & opinion.

So the latest 'clinically targeted' Israeli attacks kill, amongst countless others, two disabled women in a care home? The Zionist apologists must be so proud of their continued inhumanity, and mouth the usual pathetic platitudes to try and justify this ludicrous collective punishment. How were the disabled residents of a care home threatening the security of Israel then?

And Dave has been coming out with his usual mealy-mouthed, unquestioning support of Israel's 'right to defend itself' , on the same day the UN says the Israeli's are guilty of war crimes. And everyone's just meant to accept their continued flouting of international law with impunity, and the pathetic toadying support of spineless western governments

Please, banners, don't bring CallmeDave into this. He makes me puke at the best of times. Seeing his slack-jawed foolish face emitting pathetic utterances on the subject of Palestine is way beyond what my stomach can bear.

Can't be upsetting party donors now, can we? And that goes for the other useless spineless mob too! I think we'd be in for a long wait if we're expecting the Labour Party to do anything other than mouth the same 'right to defend itself' platitudes.

Given that, please Wallace, spare us your 'my family came here escaping persecution' bollocks. Doesn't really fit well with endorsing war crimes, does it?!

Question asked earlier about rockets from Gaza and when they began:

"Since the beginning of this year, Gaza terrorists have fired more than 450 rockets on Israel, with about half of them coming since mid-June, when two Hamas terrorists kidnapped and brutally murdered three Israeli teenagers."

Source Telegraph 8 May. You can check Ynet news, Idf spokesperson and more if you're interested.

Also someone asking for news sources that weren't UK ones.
Ha'aretz, Ynet news have English versions.

Barak Ravid on twitter is ok, as is author of above piece & Eytan Buchman amongst others.

More on twitter:
Khaled Abu Toameh

Dan Williams - Reuters

Mudar Zahran - Jordanian Palestinian

Nim; can I ask why you appear to be ignoring the terrible attrocities comitted by the IDF, and instead only focussing on the (largely ineffectual) rocket strikes Israle claim are perpetrated by Hamas members (no proof that they actually are; there are many militant groups opposing Israel's military actions)?

Do you genuinly beleive Israel is doing nothng more than 'defending itself'? Or are you wiling to admit that Israel is by far the most aggressive and disproportionate in it's actions? A view that most people on earth share.

Nim - quoting the daily telegraph? Seriously? The paper that still continues the agenda of its avowed Zionist former owner Conrad Black. Hardly impartial, is it?

Do you ever listen to fighting talk on a Saturday morning on five live? They have a bit called 'defending the indefensible'

Though it's usually funny.... 🙄

Israel warned Hamas to cease and gave them 48 hours to cease firing but the rockets kept coming.
Yes Israel has the better tech, military etc and will always look as the aggressor due to the number of deaths and casualties but Hamas know exactly what they are doing firing from where casualties will be inflicted as well as media coverage.
However should Israel do nothing when being hit by hundreds of rockets?
Hamas knows they are now facing a ground invasion and if this happens things will get much worse.

July 12, 2014 – Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird today issued the following statement:

“Canada rejects UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay’s uncalled-for criticism of Israel’s response to rocket attacks from Gaza. Focusing her comments on Israel is neither helpful nor reflective of the reality of this crisis.

“There must be no moral equivalence between Hamas, a listed terrorist organization, and its blatant disregard for human life, and the liberal democratic State of Israel’s duty and obligation to defend its people from cowardly and indiscriminate attacks.

“Canada mourns the death and suffering of innocent civilians in Gaza. Responsibility rests solely with Hamas and its allies, who launched and continue to feed this crisis.

“The Israel Defense Forces have taken extraordinary steps to reduce civilian casualties in very difficult and trying conditions. Israel should be commended—not criticized—for these efforts in the face of an enemy clearly determined to put civilians, from both sides, in mortal danger to suit its own purposes.

“Canada calls on Hamas and other militant groups to end the rocket attacks on Israel and bring an end to the ongoing violence that threatens the lives of innocent Israelis and Palestinians. The path chosen by Hamas and its allies does not lead to peace.”

Israel warned Hamas to cease

And what if Hamas, The UN or indeed anyone else warns Israel to cease? What hapens then?

Yes Israel has the better tech, military etc and will always look as the aggressor due to the number of deaths and casualties

No; due to actually being the agressors. I'm staggered that you continue to act as an aplogist for the continued agression by the Israeli military. You have been show, tima and again on this thread alone, just how barbaric Israel's actins are, yet you continue to beat the dum of 'self-defence'.

Mark Regev: "Hamas bears primary responsibility for civilian casualties in Gaza"

So, it's absolutely fine to kill innocent people then? What if those firing rockets at Israle take the same stance? That's also fine, no? That's also 'self defence', no?

However should Israel do nothing when being hit by hundreds of rockets?

So Paelstinians shoud do nothing when hundreds of innocent people are being killed?

July 12, 2014 – Foreign Affairs Minister John Baird today issued the following statement:

Stoffel, maybe you should let the foreign minister of Canada in on the detail on this thread. perhaps he's unaware. He seems even lest inclined to apologise for Israel's behaviour than Nim. The IDF should be commended he says.. Perhaps he reads the telegraph.

So... Air strikes on care homes? A good thing? Apparently so.

Hamas launch rockets from care homes, from mosques, from Hospitals and schools...This is a deliberate choice to ratchet up the death toll which is in their interests. they care less about their own civilians then you do. Israel actually published notices to residents before air strikes at populated areas. including house calls! - how many other armies would do that. That is why John Baird says the IDF should be commended.

^More Israeli propaganda. It doesnt mattter how you dress it up, nothing justifies the actions of the Israeli military, when they indiscriminately kill innocent civilians. Nothing. regardless of where the rockets are launched from, by the time the retaliation cmes, those firing the rockets are long gone. THe IDF know this. Which makes such retaliation utterly barbaric and militarily pointless. The rockets continue to be fired. All killing innocent people does, is further enrage those who already hate you.

Yes Israel should just disband its army and throw open the borders, everyone will live happily ever after. Even George Galloway would be happy with that.

Israel actually published notices to residents before air strikes at populated areas. including house calls! - how many other armies would do that

Is the aim to kill the people firing the rockets? To destroy the rocket launch infrastructure? Or something else?

Edit: I specifically mean the pre-announced air strikes. Stopping someone who's in the act of prepping a rocket to be launched at you is, surely, pretty uncontroversial.

Yes Israel should just disband its army and throw open the borders, everyone will live happily ever after.

Yes the Palestinans should just quietly move somewhere else and let the zionist settler expansionists just bulldoze their homes without question. Even Baruch Goldstein would have been happy with that.

John Baird is an apologist for the Zionist regime (do some research if you wish) and has financially benefited from his stance.

Tell you what….. get the Israelis to retreat to pre 1967 borders and we'll call it quits?, otherwise i am perfectly at ease with my support for Palestinians fighting for control over their future and regain control of their country.

I guess i'm out of this as arguing over such a topic, especially on a forum as heavily moderated as this is **** pointless and i'd just end up expressing my true feelings which i imagine would upset the hand wringers.

Bails - I dont know but if thats where the stockpiles are then perhaps thats what their aiming for. Apparently I am an apologist zionist but even given this lofty status, the idf and shin bet are not texting me their plans and intel although perhapasif I tell them about stw they will.

Stofffel - the Palestinians should have their own independent state as per a political negotiation. Abbas may be someone to negotiate with but doesnt seem to have the clout re Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other factions.

Somafunk - many Israelis would consider 67 borders re peace but Jerusalem is tiny if youre planning to split it aand needssafe access to Jewish holy sites if to be under PA control.

[url= http://forward.com/articles/201764/how-politics-and-lies-triggered-an-unintended-war/?p=all#ixzz374CPB51T ]This is an interesting account[/url]

But as an added point, if Israel were to pull back to 67 lines, do you really believe Hamas etc would stop there?
Peace deals have been offered in the past but rejected each time.

Peace deals have been offered in the past but rejected each time.

Of course that's utter bullshit, but it's exactly what we expected you to say.

Really? Talks didnt happen re Rabin, Barak, Olmert? Was Rabin and Arafat om the white house lawn and nobel peace prize bull too or just my imagination

Talks happened and the Palestinians were invited to commit national suicide, which they declined. As any fool can see, it is PRECISELY because Fatah and the PLO were not given a reasonable peace offer that they could recommend to the Palestinian people that Hamas (ironically created with Israel's help to counter the PLO) became popular.

All the time the Israelis negotiated, they carried on illegally building settlements. As Sharon (the war criminal) was so fond of saying: "facts on the ground". The whole thing was a charade

Israel makes it s own rules and **** the UN and everybody else. They carry the chip of the holocaust and think they can do what the hell they like. Fubar.

stoffel - Member
I think it's important to understand that zionists don't speak for all Jews,and in fact are in a minority.

For sure, and I don't think that's disputed at all. And more the shame for it.

I wonder if there wasn't national service, would the IDF be able to function as it does now? Would the hawkish elements have as much support?

nim - Member
the idf and shin bet are not texting me their plans and intel although perhapasif I tell them about stw they will.

Interesting that you mention Shin Bet. Have you seen The Gate Keepers? 6 former heads of Shin Bet discussing Israel's tactics.

Avraham Shalom: Peri kept showing us this chart. How many people were caught? How many informers were there? How many attacks were prevented? How many weren't? The picture was always rosy, but it was point specific. [b]There was no strategy, just tactics.[/b]

Avraham Shalom: Gradually there was an increase... [b]To put it cynically, luckily for us, terrorism increased.[/b] Why do I say that? Because now we had work and we stopped dealing with the Palestinian state. Understood? As soon as we stopped dealing with the Palestinian state and started dealing with terrorism, terror became more sophisticated. So did we. Suddenly we had a lot of work in Gaza and the West Bank, and overseas, too, so we forgot about the Palestinian issue.

Ami Ayalon: I can prove to you that Hamas did not become more moderate after Sheikh Yassin was eliminated. I can prove to you that when we killed Abbas Musawi and Nasrallah took over instead, the security in Israel didn't really improve. [b]That's why, when we deal, not with the one coming to kill us immediately, but with the person preaching, we are headed toward a place, which is forbidden by international law and basic justice[/b] poses huge question marks as to its ethics, but I'm talking as head of the Shin Bet. [b]It's ineffective.[/b]

Yuval Diskin: As Head of the Shin Bet, you learn that politicians prefer binary options. They don't like having three or four options. They want you to tell them "Zero or one. Do it. Don't do it." As a commander, I find myself in situations that are different shades of gray.

My emphasis. But I recommend watching the film. FUBAR is an understatement.

samj - Member

Stoffel, maybe you should let the foreign minister of Canada in on the detail on this thread. perhaps he's unaware.

You've just discovered that Western governments support Israel, how the hell did you think that Israel got away their brutal treatment of Palestinians and illegal acts under international law, without even sanctions?

You don't have to go all the way to Canada to find examples of pro-Israeli sentiments, much nearer to home British Prime Minister David Cameron fully supports Israel. And the last time that Israel slaughtered Palestinians in Gaza using banned weapons Tony Blair refused to call for Israel to cease fire.

Public opinion across the world might be appalled by Israeli behaviour, and becoming increasingly more hostile towards Israel with each year that passes, but Western governments still fully support Israel. That is precisely why Israel gets away with its acts of brutality and contempt for international law.

Next you'll be telling us that you weren't aware of Western hypocrisy.
.

azku - Member

Yes Israel should just disband its army and throw open the borders, everyone will live happily ever after. Even George Galloway would be happy with that.

Can you explain the significance of George Galloway ?

Are suggesting that one of the goals behind Israel's brutality towards the Palestinians is to make George Galloway unhappy ?

Why did you mention George Galloway ?

Lifer - agreed, highly recommended viewing. Amazing that they all agreed to the film and to be so open.

Iirc they all believed in keeping a channel of dialogue open even if the answer back is that the Palestinians dont want to talk at this precise moment, at least you know and there is the channel there open and ready but yhe key was to talk.

Also that on leaving their post, some mentioned being more politically to the left than when they started.

Re IDF if it wasnt compulsory I doubt you'd have a high joining rate at all, perhaps only those wishing to get skills for a career - ie pilot, peogrammer, exposure to technology etc. Added to that you have reserve duty every year which can be lengthy so not very appealing.

Urge anyone with Netflix access to watch Emad Burnat's autobiographical documentary 'Five Broken Cameras' - tbh it made me cry tears of anger, anyone giving the '6 of one...' line will be disambiguated right quickly while viewing

[url= http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ferrari-sheppard/i-traveled-to-palestine_b_4761896.html ]A very powerful account[/url]

This thread is still less depressing than the situation here.

There were two air-raid sirens whilst putting the kids to sleep last night, so they slept in our room. At 6:30 this morning we heard somewhere elses sirens followed by a series of meaty explosions, which is normal when the sirens go off, just that they usually get drowned out by the sirens themselves. My two year old is alarmed by the sirens, and by the explosions, and this morning started to demand answers, who is sending the rockets, and why.

What hope is there for the future when two year olds ask political questions? Not because of something they've seen on the news, but due to their personal experience.

Before I get roasted by the forum, I have asked myself why [i]my[/i] kids should be less of a legitimate target than kids in Gaza. I couldn't come up with any reason.

No doubt this will be "over" in a few days. Hamas will declare victory like last time and feel smug with themselves while the general population bury their dead, and try to piece together what remains of their existence. No doubt our government will be satisfied that we taught them a lesson they won't forget in a hurry, and the whole thing will be repeated for the fourth time a couple of years from now with bigger and better rockets and a more "robust" response.

If it is any comfort to some of you, our house does not have a shelter, and it takes longer than the allotted minute and a half to reach the nearest one, so if we should be unlucky enough to have a direct hit, then I won't be posting on the forum any more.

Before I get roasted by the forum, I have asked myself why my kids should be less of a legitimate target than kids in Gaza.

No-one at all here has said that. So don't try twisting things to suit your own perspective. We're against ALL needless killing of ALL innocent peole. And that includes Israei children, even those of far-right extremist zionists.

I wonder what the Palestinian children ask their parents, when they are forced from their homes, when the zionist buldozers come, when Israeli soldiers beat people up, and point guns at them. What do they say, when white phospohorous is used to bomb their shool? What do they think, when F-16s send smart bombs inot heavily civilian populated areas?

Before I get roasted by the forum, I have asked myself why my kids should be less of a legitimate target than kids in Gaza. I couldn't come up with any reason.

If this is the level of thought process you're at, then you'll never get peace.

Beyond all the conflict, I'm still concerned by the drinking water situation in Gaza.

So to date 3 young lads lost there life at the hands of criminals with no known connection Hamas .
israei forces went from house to house across the boarder beating and killing looking for the criminals involved.

Next a young boy is burnt to death a horrible way to die but even worse when burning your dead is forbidden in his religious doctrine.

Fast forward to today and we see homes being destroyed because they are close to police stations or political leaders via war planes. Rouge terrorism groups fire rockets back NOT Hamas.(as far as anyone can tell)

It's not hard to see who the aggressor is in this recent spat. But the outcome will be less clear. Even more so with what's happening in Iraq and the power and cash isis now have it might not be a ragtag rocket firing boys club Israel currently face.

It won't be the political powers or or religious leaders who suffer if this escalates it will the people stuck in the middle ground. poor people making the best of it on both sides.

To Ian Munro,

No, my thought process has extended beyond that long ago. I have always been opposed to the occupation, in favour of the dignity and human rights of the Palestinians. I am not a spokesperson for the Israeli government, and I didn't vote for any of the parties in the governing coalition. There are many others in Israel who have similar beliefs. Some of us are dismayed by the things that go on here, and are not blind to the crimes and injustices perpetrated by our state. That does not make us anti-patriotic, the opposite is true. The continued occupation only erodes the legitimacy and moral basis for the State of Israel.

As for getting roasted on the forum, is that not what you are doing?

I do fear that there will never be peace, especially in times of such insanity as now. Violence only hardens peoples hearts, and deepens the hatred and mistrust. If ther never is peace here , it will not be because of any connection to my thought process.

Fair Play EZrider, it must be a worrying situation for you at the moment, I hope everything is OK

Can I just ask if you were born in Israel, or did you move there through choice?

EZrider I hope you and yours staff safe.

I came here by choice from Britain in 1997. My wife is native Israeli with Egyptian parents. My kids were born here. When I came I had much more hope. The situation here seems to be steadily sliding to the right. We have both been involved in projects promoting tolerance between Jews and Arabs, and have some Arab friends, both Christian & Moslem. I am often humbled by their reactions to what goes on here, as I am by the reactions of some Jewish Israeli victims of the hatred & violence around us.

I would like to think that more Israelis who are now experiencing disruption to their lives, will be forced to do some real soul searching, but I won't be holding my breath.